Tears and Testimony

[cdowis]

“Let me offer a word of caution on this subject. I think if we are not careful as professional teachers working in the classroom every day, we may begin to try to counterfeit the true influence of the Spirit of the Lord by unworthy and manipulative means. I get concerned when it appears that strong emotion or free-flowing tears are equated with the presence of the Spirit. Certainly the Spirit of the Lord can bring strong emotional feelings, including tears, but that outward manifestation ought not to be confused with the presence of the Spirit itself.”

President Howard W. Hunter. “Eternal Investments: An Evening with President Howard W. Hunter, 10 February 1989.” The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 

www.lds.org/manual/teaching-seminary-preservice-readings-religion-370-471-and-475/eternal-investments?lang=eng.

Edited September 15, 2017 by cdowis

[katherine the great]

I love Howard W Hunter. ❤️

[Kenngo1969]

I do, too.  Indeed, after Cody Judy knocked President Hunter to the floor at the 1993 "bomb-scare fireside," President Hunter didn't miss a beat.  "Life," he began, after the kerfuffle had subsided, "has a fair number of challenges, as demonstrated," referring obliquely, of course, to his confrontation with Judy. Unfortunately, the "as demonstrated" reference has been removed from President Hunter's remarks as they appear on the BYU Speeches Web site.  (I would have included it and added a footnote.)  Here is that address:  https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/howard-w-hunter_anchor-souls-men/. Only the audio of his "The God That Doest Wonders" April 1989 Conference address, accompanied by a still photograph, which is the Conference at which he fell, then got up, and, without skipping a beat, completed his address (ironically, the audio includes the fall), is included at LDS.org.  Here is that address: https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1989/04/the-god-that-doest-wonders?lang=eng.

I'm not wont to lapse into vernacular, and I'm sorry if anyone is offended by my use of it in this instance, but ...

President Howard W. Hunter is a Stud!  

P.S.: CDowis, sorry for derailing your thread.   We now return you to your regularly-scheduled, on-topic programming.

Edited September 15, 2017 by Kenngo1969

[Guest]

7 hours ago, cdowis said:

“Let me offer a word of caution on this subject. I think if we are not careful as professional teachers working in the classroom every day, we may begin to try to counterfeit the true influence of the Spirit of the Lord by unworthy and manipulative means. I get concerned when it appears that strong emotion or free-flowing tears are equated with the presence of the Spirit. Certainly the Spirit of the Lord can bring strong emotional feelings, including tears, but that outward manifestation ought not to be confused with the presence of the Spirit itself.”

President Howard W. Hunter. “Eternal Investments: An Evening with President Howard W. Hunter, 10 February 1989.” The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 

www.lds.org/manual/teaching-seminary-preservice-readings-religion-370-471-and-475/eternal-investments?lang=eng.

When I was growing up, the louder the Pastor was, the more it would be said of him that "the Spirit got a hold of him". When such emotion are very loud preaching took place, was when I could barely make out what was being said. When I joined our Church, I was greatful that I could easily understand all that was being said. 

[cdowis]

1 hour ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

When I was growing up, the louder the Pastor was, the more it would be said of him that "the Spirit got a hold of him". When such emotion are very loud preaching took place, was when I could barely make out what was being said. When I joined our Church, I was greatful that I could easily understand all that was being said. 

Others do a dance and jump up and down on the stage, shouting Hallelujah and speaking in tongues.  Clearly a sign that the spirit possessed him.

[Calm]

5 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I do, too.  Indeed, after Cody Judy knocked President Hunter to the floor at the 1993 "bomb-scare fireside," President Hunter didn't miss a beat.  "Life," he began, after the kerfuffle had subsided, "has a fair number of challenges, as demonstrated," referring obliquely, of course, to his confrontation with Judy. Unfortunately, the "as demonstrated" reference has been removed from President Hunter's remarks as they appear on the BYU Speeches Web site.  (I would have included it and added a footnote.)  Here is that address:  https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/howard-w-hunter_anchor-souls-men/. Only the audio of his "The God That Doest Wonders" April 1989 Conference address, accompanied by a still photograph, which is the Conference at which he fell, then got up, and, without skipping a beat, completed his address (ironically, the audio includes the fall), is included at LDS.org.  Here is that address: https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1989/04/the-god-that-doest-wonders?lang=eng.

I am not surprised they don't include it.  He was not happy with using drama to drive up the alleged spiritual experience and preferred the message to be the vehicle, to be what got the attention....I think this is an example of his attitude expressed in the opening post.

As to others' faith, different people can become opened to the Spirit in different ways.  We need to learn what works best for ourselves, but I don't think we need to make judgments of others.

[Guest]

5 hours ago, cdowis said:

Others do a dance and jump up and down on the stage, shouting Hallelujah and speaking in tongues.  Clearly a sign that the spirit possessed him.

I grew up seeing this as well. 

[Kenngo1969]

22 hours ago, Calm said:

I am not surprised they don't include it.  He was not happy with using drama to drive up the alleged spiritual experience and preferred the message to be the vehicle, to be what got the attention....I think this is an example of his attitude expressed in the opening post.

As to others' faith, different people can become opened to the Spirit in different ways.  We need to learn what works best for ourselves, but I don't think we need to make judgments of others.

I don't necessarily disagree that drama for drama's sake is not desirable.  There's another reason why President Hunter may not have wanted video of his fall included: Embarrassment.  It strikes me as a bit strange, however, that, while video of the address was replaced by a still photo, its audio still included the fall.  Surely, if they could have edited the one, they could have edited the other, as well.  

Edited September 16, 2017 by Kenngo1969

[JLHPROF]

On 9/15/2017 at 12:39 PM, cdowis said:

Others do a dance and jump up and down on the stage, shouting Hallelujah and speaking in tongues.  Clearly a sign that the spirit possessed him.

Some claim warm fuzzies are the Holy Ghost.
Dancing, jumping up and down, shouting hallelujah, weeping, wailing, shouting, warm fuzzies....

• The Holy Ghost has no other effect than pure intelligence. It is more powerful in expanding the mind, enlightening the understanding, and storing the intellect with present knowledge, of a man who is of the literal seed of Abraham, than one that is a Gentile, though it may not have half as much visible effect upon the body; for as the Holy Ghost falls upon one of the literal seed of Abraham, it is calm and serene; and his whole soul and body are only exercised by the pure spirit of intelligence; while the effect of the Holy Ghost upon a Gentile, is to purge out the old blood, and make him actually of the seed of Abraham. That man that has none of the blood of Abraham (naturally) must have a new creation by the Holy Ghost. In such a case, there may be more of a powerful effect upon the body, and visible to the eye, than upon an Israelite, while the Israelite at first might be far before the Gentile in pure intelligence.  Joseph Smith - TPJS 149-150

 

[The Nehor]

I guess that my tendency to spontaneously roll my shoulders when the Holy Ghost is really hitting me then means I am a Gentile.  

[drums12]

On 9/17/2017 at 7:45 PM, JLHPROF said:

Some claim warm fuzzies are the Holy Ghost.
Dancing, jumping up and down, shouting hallelujah, weeping, wailing, shouting, warm fuzzies....

• The Holy Ghost has no other effect than pure intelligence. It is more powerful in expanding the mind, enlightening the understanding, and storing the intellect with present knowledge, of a man who is of the literal seed of Abraham, than one that is a Gentile, though it may not have half as much visible effect upon the body; for as the Holy Ghost falls upon one of the literal seed of Abraham, it is calm and serene; and his whole soul and body are only exercised by the pure spirit of intelligence; while the effect of the Holy Ghost upon a Gentile, is to purge out the old blood, and make him actually of the seed of Abraham. That man that has none of the blood of Abraham (naturally) must have a new creation by the Holy Ghost. In such a case, there may be more of a powerful effect upon the body, and visible to the eye, than upon an Israelite, while the Israelite at first might be far before the Gentile in pure intelligence.  Joseph Smith - TPJS 149-150

 

So when the disciples on the road to Emmaus later asked "Did not our hearts burn within us?" was that not a feeling rather than just "pure intelligence?"  

[The Nehor]

5 minutes ago, drums12 said:

So when the disciples on the road to Emmaus later asked "Did not our hearts burn within us?" was that not a feeling rather than just "pure intelligence?"  

Pure intelligence also can have that kind of a physical effect.

I think the problem is that warm fuzzies can mean anything from sentimentality or a simple emotional response all the way to a burning spiritual experience. You see this in people who assume being emotional is being spiritual as if the spiritually dead are devoid of emotions.

[JLHPROF]

13 minutes ago, drums12 said:

So when the disciples on the road to Emmaus later asked "Did not our hearts burn within us?" was that not a feeling rather than just "pure intelligence?"  

Joseph speaks clearly.  He does not deny a physical effect of the Holy Ghost.
He simply clarifies the type of physical effect that come from the witness of the spirit.  And that the feelings alone are not the function of the Holy Ghost but rather a side effect.
Witnessing truth and providing knowledge is the mission of the Holy Ghost.

ETA - Nehor beat me to it - he nailed it perfectly.

 

Edited September 19, 2017 by JLHPROF

[drums12]

I tend to agree.  I think many mistake emotions as the Spirit as a matter of course.  Some people (myself included) tend to have emotions very close to the surface when feeling the Spirit.  Others do not.  Other times, I am emotional but it is unrelated to anything spiritual

[Stargazer]

On 9/19/2017 at 2:24 PM, drums12 said:

I tend to agree.  I think many mistake emotions as the Spirit as a matter of course.  Some people (myself included) tend to have emotions very close to the surface when feeling the Spirit.  Others do not.  Other times, I am emotional but it is unrelated to anything spiritual

In the most spiritually intense experience I ever had, there were no emotions involved whatever.