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Lesbian Couple Divorce to Join the Church


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Posted
19 minutes ago, Calm said:

I think it can be dangerous to phrase it like that.  Instead I would say recognize who they are and who they want most to become and what choices they need to make to bridge the gap.  I think those who think they should just "forget" or suppress their own attributes will find they make that aspect of themselves known in troublesome ways that are not as controllable as accepting one's attributes and actively working to adapt them to something better.

 

Well said Calm. What I meant is in spite of who they are, they need to focus on who they should be. You are 100% correct that I phrased it poorly as suppressing reality is often a path to turmoil. 

Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, stemelbow said:

It'll be cool in a future day when two people in a marriage don't have to divorce to join the Church.  But, as of now, I wish these two well. 

 

 

It would be even cooler when I personally don't have to sacrifice anything in my life for God to join the Church. ;)

Edited by Darren10
Posted
2 minutes ago, Darren10 said:

It would be even cooler when I personally don't have to sacrifice amythinng in my life for God to join the Church. ;)

You're waiting, huh? 

Posted

Really torn on this.  Happy she found Christ and light in the book of mormon, but I'm so worried what may happen if they fall upon the ces letter, or begin to dig into church history.  My belief if 130:2 is true, "that same sociality which exists among us here will exist among us there, only it will be coupled with eternal glory", then there should be room for a married lesbian couple to be happy members of our church.  I am perfectly aware of the scriptures in the NT against homosexuality including Romans1, 1Tim1, 1Cor6, but if we can disavow one modern prophet and apostle's teachings (Brigham's racist doctrines) can't we dismiss Paul's homosexuality teachings?  Does Paul really provide a well thought out argument or theology against same sex relations in Romans1?   For those of you who have read the many amicus briefs filed in Obergefell what are your thoughts on the traditional marriage arguments filed by Kirton McConkie?  One of the challenges with Savannah's testimony was that when she speaks about heavenly parents and simultaneously her hope for a happy same sex marriage, I'm not sure she clearly sees the king follet connection between how mormons see god as a superevolved exalted man - then the idea for the divine family would also have to be entirely overthrown to include a spectrum of genders and relationships.  

Posted
6 hours ago, Darren10 said:

Here's a story of Courtney and Rachelle. Courtney grew up in the LDS Church and "did everything [she] was supposed to". During her enrollement at BYU, she met Rachelle. Courtney moved to Oregon to be with Rachelle and they got married. Courtney said her soul was torm into pieces as she was gau but knew the Church was true. Courtney found lots of happiness with Rachelle and at a picture session, Courtney's father apologized for previously, by his choice, not ever meeting Rachelle; and that began a healing process. The LDS missionaries showed up to Courtney and Rachelle's door. They both agreed to listen to their message and after feeling the peace brought into their home by the missionaries and by reading the Book of mormon and knowing it was true, Rachelle agreed to join the church they both filed ofr divorce in order for Rachelle to be baptized. 

I think this is a miraculous story. It shows how through the love of Christ anyone can change. It also shows how the most effective way to bring the love of Christ into the lives of ithers is through charitbable service. Not preaching, not condemnation. Though those do have a place in the gospel, it is through personable loving service that Christ's love is most likely felt by others. Jesus knows His own and does not forget them.

http://www.ldsliving.com/Watch-A-Lesbian-Couple-Shares-Why-They-Divorced-to-Join-the-Church-in-Powerful-Video/s/86166?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=social_button

I think people would be surprised at how common it is for one of the spouses in a "traditional" LDS marriage to be gay, and they make the marriage and family work -- and ever so "happily ever after" as well -- with the same mindset of putting their relationship with the Lord first. I think these two sisters certainly exemplify how an authentic conversion to Christ can settle the most perplexing of issues. Life is difficult but with Him the yoke is easy and the burden light.

Posted (edited)
50 minutes ago, blueglass said:

Really torn on this.  Happy she found Christ and light in the book of mormon, but I'm so worried what may happen if they fall upon the ces letter, or begin to dig into church history.  My belief if 130:2 is true, "that same sociality which exists among us here will exist among us there, only it will be coupled with eternal glory", then there should be room for a married lesbian couple to be happy members of our church.  I am perfectly aware of the scriptures in the NT against homosexuality including Romans1, 1Tim1, 1Cor6, but if we can disavow one modern prophet and apostle's teachings (Brigham's racist doctrines) can't we dismiss Paul's homosexuality teachings?  Does Paul really provide a well thought out argument or theology against same sex relations in Romans1?   For those of you who have read the many amicus briefs filed in Obergefell what are your thoughts on the traditional marriage arguments filed by Kirton McConkie?  One of the challenges with Savannah's testimony was that when she speaks about heavenly parents and simultaneously her hope for a happy same sex marriage, I'm not sure she clearly sees the king follet connection between how mormons see god as a superevolved exalted man - then the idea for the divine family would also have to be entirely overthrown to include a spectrum of genders and relationships.  

You're incorporating too many doctrines from too many sources without properly weighing in on the value of this sources. King Follett is a powerful discourse but not at all worth believing in so far as "what Mormo s believe" is co concerned. As for celestial glory, that means overcoming the world meaning whatever hinders us towards our return to our Heavenly Father and inherenting, "all He has", has been conquered. Whatever that is may vary and in Courtney and Rachelle's case, that would mean same sex attraction. Savannah's testimony has been discussed through and through on this forum. I don't think it values much at all so far as "what Mormons believe" goes. 

Edited by Darren10
Posted
4 hours ago, Daniel2 said:

Their story reminds me of the story of Elder Christofferson's brother, Tom.  Like him, they don't seem to imply their sexual orientation changed--rather, they chose to prioritize their religious identity over their relational identity ("the only thing that matters is our relationship with our Heavenly Father---nothing else matters"). 

I imagine that the emotional and spiritual response I feel as I listen to these two women's story is similar to the emotional and spiritual response that devout Latter-day Saints may feel when they hear a loved one leaves their family and Faith to pursue a relationship and marriage with someone of the same gender.  Hearing their story concerns me that other devout members of the LDS church close to gay family members will continue to hold out hope that more of us can and should follow their examples, rather than accept and respect those who chose a different path.   But while their choice saddens me, I fully support and respect their agency to choose how to conduct their lives and to share their stories.

At this stage of my life, I can't imagine living without the fulfillment of the loving relationship my husband and I share, and I, too, believe I have been blessed because of our relationship and have the opportunity to be a force for good in our extended family's and friends' lives.  May these young women continue to likewise find fulfillment, peace, and love on their journey.  It sounds like they both will have the tremendous opportunities and ability to lift, love, and bless others.

I wish them all the best.

D

Tom Chistofferson's story came to mind as well as another that I heard a while back (can't remember their names though...I'm terrible with names). 

I would assume you are right on the pain part. I remember being surprised by the pain I felt with my cousin in this area. It was so unexpected to feel such at all. At least for me, I don't think a hope that maybe, one day, years from now, she may find what I love in the gospel....it isn't necessarily in direct opposition to just loving her now where she is and as she is....and always loving her no matter where her journey takes her. It is likewise her agency and her choice. I respect her enough to not push my expectations for life on her. 

 Funny thing, I was looking through old private messages from 13 years ago and found one with you. It made me smile at seeing these two people in the middle of our own different learning journeys. I'm very grateful for the perspectives you gave me then. And I wish you well in your own journey.

 

With luv,

BD 

Posted
21 minutes ago, Darren10 said:

. King Follett is a powerful discourse but not at all worth believing in so far as "what Mormo s believe" is co concerned. 

Why do you say that?  It has been reprinted in the Ensign, for example?

The whole of it might be problematic especially given it is not verbatim, but a collection of four note takers who at times wrote significantly different things, Imo.  But the form used by the Church in its own teaching publications seems quite worthwhile to me as a source of doctrine.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1971/04/the-king-follett-sermon?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1971/05/the-king-follett-sermon?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/topics/becoming-like-god?lang=eng

"

The following April, feeling he was “never in any nearer relationship to God than at the present time,”34 Joseph Smith spoke about the nature of God and the future of humankind to the Saints, who had gathered for a general Church conference. He used the occasion in part to reflect upon the death of a Church member named King Follett, who had died unexpectedly a month earlier. When he rose to speak, the wind was blowing, so Joseph asked his listeners to give him their “profound attention” and to “pray that the L[ord] may strengthen my lungs” and stay the winds until his message had been delivered.35

“What kind of a being is God?” he asked. Human beings needed to know, he argued, because “if men do not comprehend the character of God they do not comprehend themselves.”36 In that phrase, the Prophet collapsed the gulf that centuries of confusion had created between God and humanity. Human nature was at its core divine. God “was once as one of us” and “all the spirits that God ever sent into the world” were likewise “susceptible of enlargement.” Joseph Smith preached that long before the world was formed, God found “himself in the midst” of these beings and “saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself”37 and be “exalted” with Him.38

Joseph told the assembled Saints, “You have got to learn how to be a god yourself.”39 In order to do that, the Saints needed to learn godliness, or to be more like God. The process would be ongoing and would require patience, faith, continuing repentance, obedience to the commandments of the gospel, and reliance on Christ. Like ascending a ladder, individuals needed to learn the “first prin[ciples] of the Gospel” and continue beyond the limits of mortal knowledge until they could “learn the last prin[ciples] of the Gospel” when the time came.40 “It is not all to be comprehended in this world,” Joseph said.41 “It will take a long time after the grave to understand the whole.”42"

Posted

The following was related to me some 20-25 years ago upon the self-outing of a 50-something to his 70-something-year-old parents:

A neighbor and his wife visited the parents after hearing of the self-outing.  The neighbor, who had been a student of the father, related how he had struggled since his teen years with SSA, but decided to follow advice of Church leaders and go ahead and marry.  His decision ended up with one of those happy endings, with the SSA feelings subsiding over time through a combination of exercise of will, prayer, discipleship and lots of love and patience.  He related that the 50-something year old son had a choice to make, since he had, unknown to his parents, made the same decision years earlier:  preserve his family, keep his covenants, keep fighting the fight and racing on to the finish line  ...  or  ...  not.  There wasn't really any middle ground.  He and his wife also offered to help the 50-something year old son and his his wife through friendshipping and whatnot.

The 50-something year old son and his wife instead sought advice from CLP, who convinced the son's wife not to divorce him, but rather give him his freedom to find his way.  

She died untouched about 7 years later of breast cancer.  Unnurtured, betrayed and unloved as she was.

So  ...  CLP's advice sucked  ...  son's and wife's middle way sucked  ...  the successful couple's offer was rebuffed.

And this is why I am so astonished at this lovely couple's touching story.  There's hope yet.

Posted
7 hours ago, poptart said:

I know for me besides no one being willing to talk about Joseph Smiths Masonic ties the ban on gay relationships was the main deal breaker.  Knowing what I would have to give up for something that offered little return on investment was a huge turnoff. 

If you want to talk about such things, there's lots of people here fairly familiar with the issues. Ask away. To me Masonry largely arose out of theurgical platonism, gnosticism and hermeticism that persisted in the Renaissance and was adopted by speculative Masonry in the early 17th century. It was a way of conveying truths from the ancient near east around the time of Christ that had been lost during the apostasy. (Most of these things were rediscovered in the renaissance partially due to the push of Islam in Turkey which drove refugees to the west bringing texts that had been lost or forgotten in the west) To me Masonry has a similar connection to Mormonism that Protestantism. Different truths but in both cases a catalyst for the restoration.

Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Calm said:

Why do you say that?  It has been reprinted in the Ensign, for example?

The whole of it might be problematic especially given it is not verbatim, but a collection of four note takers who at times wrote significantly different things, Imo.  But the form used by the Church in its own teaching publications seems quite worthwhile to me as a source of doctrine.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1971/04/the-king-follett-sermon?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1971/05/the-king-follett-sermon?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/topics/becoming-like-god?lang=eng

"

The following April, feeling he was “never in any nearer relationship to God than at the present time,”34 Joseph Smith spoke about the nature of God and the future of humankind to the Saints, who had gathered for a general Church conference. He used the occasion in part to reflect upon the death of a Church member named King Follett, who had died unexpectedly a month earlier. When he rose to speak, the wind was blowing, so Joseph asked his listeners to give him their “profound attention” and to “pray that the L[ord] may strengthen my lungs” and stay the winds until his message had been delivered.35

“What kind of a being is God?” he asked. Human beings needed to know, he argued, because “if men do not comprehend the character of God they do not comprehend themselves.”36 In that phrase, the Prophet collapsed the gulf that centuries of confusion had created between God and humanity. Human nature was at its core divine. God “was once as one of us” and “all the spirits that God ever sent into the world” were likewise “susceptible of enlargement.” Joseph Smith preached that long before the world was formed, God found “himself in the midst” of these beings and “saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself”37 and be “exalted” with Him.38

Joseph told the assembled Saints, “You have got to learn how to be a god yourself.”39 In order to do that, the Saints needed to learn godliness, or to be more like God. The process would be ongoing and would require patience, faith, continuing repentance, obedience to the commandments of the gospel, and reliance on Christ. Like ascending a ladder, individuals needed to learn the “first prin[ciples] of the Gospel” and continue beyond the limits of mortal knowledge until they could “learn the last prin[ciples] of the Gospel” when the time came.40 “It is not all to be comprehended in this world,” Joseph said.41 “It will take a long time after the grave to understand the whole.”42"

Oh, I've said before that I believe there is truth to God [the Father] once being a mortal man but in terms of doctrine by which a Mormon places his or her faith it is useless. It only creates confusion as it is not a foundational doctrine. Even if true, without the LDS Church's official endorsement as canon, and the Ensign, as reliable as it is, is not canon, it is not a good representation to show "what Mormons believe". My faith is in scripture and modern-day revelation endorsed by the First Presidency such as Jesus the Christ, A Proclamation yo the World, and Official Declaration 1&2 respectively. Until something becomes as authoritative as the Standard Works, I say "Mormons believe" that all things began with God the Father, nothing before Him. 

Edited by Darren10
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Hooray! Two more single LDS women on the market! ;) 

Still very much in love with each other though. But, good luck with you after you get their digits. :)

Edited by Darren10
Posted
7 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

The track record of praying away the Gay is not good.

Not everyone gay is only gay. For many people it's a spectrum. That's not to deny those who only have one sort of feeling, but there are those who are somewhat bisexual. I've no idea if these people fit that, but we shouldn't dismiss it out of hand.

Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

I know a while back I saw part of this story from Cortney's mother's perspective, before any of the conversion/re-conversion parts. It was this great story of wrapping their heads around what this meant, moving through their own pain and hurt, learning to accept, and then love their daughter and new DIL as they were....where they were. For the life of me, I cannot find it. A million rep points to anyone if they can.  

I think they are both important stories to tell. We don't know where or how someone's journey will go in the moment. But it is likely not as good or as bright without learning to love and accept those around us as they stand. It was apparent that her father's change of heart was imperative for there to be healing and relational change. And likely for them to have any shot of accepting the gospel as they ended up doing. But whatever the results, learning to love where they are and who they are is imperative to me. And doing so with no expectation that it will give you the results you wanted to see. 

 

Either way, thanks for the story. It is obvious that it was hard and painful decision for them but also a decision that brought them a peace and goodness they were looking for. I assume no one would make such a sacrifice without a sure and deep faith that it was right. 

 

With luv,

BD 

I can't help you right now but the video mentions finding Courtney and Rachelle from those two lady's own blog. That should be a geat place for you or someone else to start.

Edited to ad: I tried a search but unfortunately I could not find anything. I don't even know Courtney's last name.

Edited by Darren10
Posted

For a church that teaches the principle of divorce in order to become a member.  A solid win.  (Something that I personally find quite counter to the teachings of Christ.  But I understand the church's reasoning)

For a couple who think the only way to follow the teachings of Christ is through divorce and baptism, I wish them both all the happiness and joy this decision will give them in both this life and the one to come.

Sometimes these things work out.  Sometimes they don't   Time will tell.  I am reminded of a good friend of mine who I knew through Evergreen.  He had a boyfriend and lived in Hawaii for many years.  Through the patience and long suffering of his parents, he decided to return to the church.  He broke up with his boyfriend, disavowed having any gay relationship, moved back home and began attending church.  This is the point where our paths crossed and when he joined Evergreen.  We all enthusiastically followed his progress as he began the dating process.  Yeah.  He met a girl.  She was nice, sweet, understanding, everything he was looking for.  He would report on his dates and progress in their relationship.  Then the progress reports got less frequent.  So I asked him what was going on.  Did she not turn out to be as wonderful as he thought she was?  He said no, she is a very sweet and loving person.  It is just that he lost interest.  Fortunately another really nice person was spared the unhappiness that these kinds of marriages frequently end up having.

Eventually my friend met a guy, they got married in Canada, which at the time was one of the few places a gay couple could marry.  That was 11 years ago.  He is still very happy in his marriage.

We could probably fill this entire thread with stories of how different people have dealt with this issue.  Some, like this lesbian couple fit the paradigm that the Mormon church wants people to follow.  Some, like my friends, comes as close as he could in doing what he felt God expected and wanted him to do.  And some have left the church and God completely and never looked back.  We each have just one life.  There is no dress rehearsal.  How we choose to live that life is entirely upon ourselves and the choices we make.  My hope is that everyone makes the kinds of choices that brings them peace and happiness in their relationship with God.  And my hope is that they live their lives as close as they can to the life that Christ himself lead.  Following Christ's words of loving God with all your heart and being kind and loving and charitable to all you mee.  That seems to me to be the best definition of a successful life.

 

Posted
15 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

I know a while back I saw part of this story from Cortney's mother's perspective, before any of the conversion/re-conversion parts. It was this great story of wrapping their heads around what this meant, moving through their own pain and hurt, learning to accept, and then love their daughter and new DIL as they were....where they were. For the life of me, I cannot find it. A million rep points to anyone if they can. 

https://www.tofw.com/blogs/pure-love-healed-our-family

gimmie-gimmie-gimmie LOL

Posted
6 hours ago, california boy said:

For a church that teaches the principle of divorce in order to become a member.  A solid win.  (Something that I personally find quite counter to the teachings of Christ.  But I understand the church's reasoning)

Does the church teach divorce in order to become a member?  I know in regards to polygamy (in country where that is legal), the church specifically teaches against divorce, and I can't think of any other teachings in regards to SSM where the church pushes divorce, but maybe i just haven't studied the issue before. 

Do you have any references (actually teachings by the church) to support this statement?

Posted
1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Does the church teach divorce in order to become a member?  I know in regards to polygamy (in country where that is legal), the church specifically teaches against divorce, and I can't think of any other teachings in regards to SSM where the church pushes divorce, but maybe i just haven't studied the issue before. 

Do you have any references (actually teachings by the church) to support this statement?

A gay couple are apostates and can not be members of the church.  I don't think this policy is s surprise for you.  So how would this gay couple be allowed to be members without requiring divorce

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