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Am I a naughty Mormon boy if I like Nietzsche?


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So I recently read Nietzsche's work "The Birth of Tragedy". I actually quite liked how he discusses living an authentic life and embracing the chaotic reality of struggle and suffering. However he also strikes me as a German Korihor with his discussion about relying completely on the self. I was curious what those here on this board who are philosophically inclined think of Nietzsche. Is he hazardous to spiritual health? Or can something be gained from studying him?

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4 minutes ago, pogi said:

If Bukowski likes him, he is ok in my book.  As with any philosopher, you take the good and leave the bad.

I think in some ways we are completely reliant on the self.  It seems contradictory, but spiritual dependence on God requires complete spiritual self-reliance.  In order to be entirely submissive and dependent upon God one is required to trust his own conscience above all else.  It all happens "in here" and not "out there", as MFB might say.  

Dang dude, didn't see this.

Spooky !!!

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4 minutes ago, USU78 said:

...  and ... if one wishes to become a "super man," one must free one's self from those influences that make one nothing but a compliant drone, punching that time card, voting like the straw boss says to vote, believing without questioning what the vicar and the talking head on the idiot box say.

Cut one's self out from the herd. 

I went with Ubermensch.

Couldn't help myself ;)

It doesn't really translate, as you well know. "Mensch" itself already is half way there! "Be a Mensch"! ;)

 

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51 minutes ago, boblloyd91 said:

So I recently read Nietzsche's work "The Birth of Tragedy". I actually quite liked how he discusses living an authentic life and embracing the chaotic reality of struggle and suffering. However he also strikes me as a German Korihor with his discussion about relying completely on the self. I was curious what those here on this board who are philosophically inclined think of Nietzsche. Is he hazardous to spiritual health? Or can something be gained from studying him?

How does one live authentically?

What are the qualities of an authentic human being?

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1 minute ago, mfbukowski said:

I went with Ubermensch.

Couldn't help myself ;)

It doesn't really translate, as you well know. "Mensch" itself already is half way there! "Be a Mensch"! ;)

 

Except that's Yiddish and not German.

Again it's the Jews!!!

Edited by USU78
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18 minutes ago, USU78 said:

Except that's Yiddish and not German.

Again it's the Jews!!!

It is!

I worked in NYC at the 92nd St. YMHA as a grad student and got them confused.

Yet another evidence that this is a Restoration of all things. Was N remotely Jewish? Culturally?

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Do I have the power within myself to resurrect myself? Do I have the power within myself to atone for my own sins? I have heard that those who refuse the atoning power of Christ will have to suffer , even as Christ, and pay every last penny in order to satisfy Justice. Even after all that suffering, what will be the reward? What Kingdom will they enter? I know we have always pushed self reliance , but this stuff seems a stretch. I have constantly been told to rely on the Savior. Should I stop doing that ?

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43 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

It is!

I worked in NYC at the 92nd St. YMHA as a grad student and got them confused.

Yet another evidence that this is a Restoration of all things. Was N remotely Jewish? Culturally?

http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10635.html

Quote

 

As Robert Holub shows, a careful consideration of all the evidence from Nietzsche’s published and unpublished writings and letters reveals that he harbored anti-Jewish prejudices throughout his life.

Nietzsche’s Jewish Problem demonstrates how this is so despite the apparent paradox of the philosopher’s well-documented opposition to the crude political anti-Semitism of the Germany of his day. As Holub explains, Nietzsche’s "anti-anti-Semitism" was motivated more by distaste for vulgar nationalism than by any objection to anti-Jewish prejudice.

 

It's, accordingly, a mixed bag.  He was certainly no more anti-Semitic than your average German of his day.  Yes, I know, that makes him at best the tallest guy in Mensa.

As for the definition of Mensch in German vs Yiddish, the latter imputes only the best human qualities to its Menschen.  The former is more a descriptive of the beastie, deriving as it does from Mann:  i.e., Mann + isch + a Grimm umlaut = Mensch, with no particular qualities imputed.

Edited by USU78
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1 hour ago, strappinglad said:

Do I have the power within myself to resurrect myself? Do I have the power within myself to atone for my own sins? I have heard that those who refuse the atoning power of Christ will have to suffer , even as Christ, and pay every last penny in order to satisfy Justice. Even after all that suffering, what will be the reward? What Kingdom will they enter? I know we have always pushed self reliance , but this stuff seems a stretch. I have constantly been told to rely on the Savior. Should I stop doing that ?

That why others say we're not Christian, I guess.

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You're naughty!  Naughty, naughty, naughty!

Travieso!

And your affinity for Nietschze is simply the least of your sins!

Repent!  Repent ye, repent ye, for the day of the Lord is soon at hand!

:D:rofl::D 

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3 hours ago, strappinglad said:

Do I have the power within myself to resurrect myself? Do I have the power within myself to atone for my own sins? I have heard that those who refuse the atoning power of Christ will have to suffer , even as Christ, and pay every last penny in order to satisfy Justice. Even after all that suffering, what will be the reward? What Kingdom will they enter? I know we have always pushed self reliance , but this stuff seems a stretch. I have constantly been told to rely on the Savior. Should I stop doing that ?

Never said anything like that. We EMULATE what He did in overcoming the world.

He taught us that we must, and how to do it.

Edited by mfbukowski
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3 hours ago, USU78 said:

http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10635.html

It's, accordingly, a mixed bag.  He was certainly no more anti-Semitic than your average German of his day.  Yes, I know, that makes him at best the tallest guy in Mensa.

As for the definition of Mensch in German vs Yiddish, the latter imputes only the best human qualities to its Menschen.  The former is more a descriptive of the beastie, deriving as it does from Mann:  i.e., Mann + isch + a Grimm umlaut = Mensch, with no particular qualities imputed.

Aha! Thanks. 

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5 hours ago, USU78 said:

...  and ... if one wishes to become a "super man," one must free one's self from those influences that make one nothing but a compliant drone, punching that time card, voting like the straw boss says to vote, believing without questioning what the vicar and the talking head on the idiot box say.

Cut one's self out from the herd. 

You mean all of humanity doesn't actually suffer from a terminal "Brain Cloud"?

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4 hours ago, strappinglad said:

Do I have the power within myself to resurrect myself? Do I have the power within myself to atone for my own sins? I have heard that those who refuse the atoning power of Christ will have to suffer , even as Christ, and pay every last penny in order to satisfy Justice. Even after all that suffering, what will be the reward? What Kingdom will they enter? I know we have always pushed self reliance , but this stuff seems a stretch. I have constantly been told to rely on the Savior. Should I stop doing that ?

No but you have the power to live your life as you believe it should be lived. I'm a firm believer in if life sucks, change your geography. People get tied down to one job, one home, same ward year in and year out. It has it's advantages  but so does skippy hopping across the USA or whatever your choice of geography is. We were in the Annapolis ward for a year or so and what a blessing that was, the cadets (?) from the military academy  set a great example as a human being with high goals that serve the country as well God and themselves. I couldn't stay though, we sat through one hurricane and there was this white flaky stuff falling from the sky in early November it made the deck real slickery. Just make sure you pray about each move, There are many other wards I loved too.

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5 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Nietzsche hated Christianity because he did not understand Christ as a heroic figure. He saw a weak man who loved the stupid masses and who allowed himself to be crucified by the Romans, whom he saw as strong.

He did not see the Christ of the resurrection who overcame the world and controlled life and death itself, and who wanted all his followers to do likewise. 

The Human Risen Christ is actually the definition of the Ubermensch, and we as followers must become Ubermenschend and follow his path and become gods.

As any fundamentalist "christian" will tell you the desire to become gods is antithetical to their religion .

It is!

But it is central to our beliefs.

That is why I do not want to be known as  "Christian". They have stolen the word and made it opposite to being true followers of The Human Christ who overcame the world, as we should strive ourselves to do.

Around us is matter unorganized. We need to take that and organize our own world as Christ and his blessed Father have.

One of the reasons why Nietzsche despised the notion of the Christian God is because he couldn't understand why a supreme being, an entity who can't help but remain in a state of static perfection forever, would want to be praised all of the time, as if he had accomplished some great thing. I can see his point. Praised for what exactly? Praised for not sending some to eternal sufferings in hell on a whim?

Conversely, the Gods of Mormonism are are authentic conquering heros who actually deserve to be praised because they faced the most fearsome and destructive powers of moral opposition that exist spiritually and temporally and overcame those very real powers through unconquerable trust in the fact that there always have been and always will be intelligent beings who perfectly embody the eternal principles of goodness, wisdom, justice, mercy, faith, hope and charity. 

While it's true Christ saves us through the atonement, it's equally true that as the ultimate prototype of a saved being he teaches each of us how we need to think, feel and act in order to overcome the everlasting opposing forces of spiritual darkness and finally gain our exaltation. In every sense of the word, he truly is our exemplar.

There is no such thing as a static God. The only Gods who exist are conquering heros of faith who have been tried, refined and proven in the crucible of ultimate adversity.

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14 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Actually Yiddish is German, with a few technical terms from Hebrew & Aramaic thrown in for good measure.  Ubermensch is fully German.

Yup. Can't imagine an Uebergoy like Nietzsche speaking Yiddish

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Has anyone here listened to 

7 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Everything can be learned from him, not in what he says but in the attitude behind it.

Read what you just said in the spirit of Moroni 10 and  James 1.

God - the spirit deep inside you- must be the only one you rely on.

The rest is other's opinions, and they have no clue what is good for you.

Follow your gut which in Mormonese is the spirit

Remember to Nietzsche, religion an Christianity was German pulpit pounding Protestant hell fire theology

He was right that THAT God is dead, and never lived.

N wants us to create our own world out of matter unorganized and become gods.

Sound familiar?

 

You ever listen to Dr. Jordan Peterson?  I'm convinced that he is your real life counterpart...

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Thanks for all the great responses! I was curious though if anyone saw some affinities to the Book of Mormon antichrist Korihor, as Korihor's insistence on relying on Christ seemed foolish, which it seems like Nietzsche wasn't too keen on either.

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