apostasy What Caused Each Dispensation To End?

[TrueSoldier]

What happened during each dispensation to cause it to end?

Adam
Enoch
Noah
Abraham
Moses
Jesus Christ (this one more obvious)

Scripture references are greatly appreciated.

[JLHPROF]

Loss of sufficient priesthood authority to perform every ordinance and build the kingdom.
Even when some priesthood remained on earth, a loss of any keys and ordinances from the earth requires them to be "dispensed" from heaven again.

[TrueSoldier]

12 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Loss of sufficient priesthood authority to perform every ordinance and build the kingdom.
Even when some priesthood remained on earth, a loss of any keys and ordinances from the earth requires them to be "dispensed" from heaven again.

I know I get it, we teach that people "rejected" prophets, priesthood was lost etc... but where in the bible do we learn that Abraham was rejected for example and the priesthood was lost? What ch verse?

With Noah after the water cleared out after the flood, where does it talk about rejection of truth to the point we needed it restored to Abraham?

Am I making sense? Trust me I get the while Apostasy pattern... I was a missionary myself... but would like to be able to site exact scriptures. (I can't seem to find any clear verses)

[JLHPROF]

1 minute ago, TrueSoldier said:

I know I get it, we teach that people "rejected" prophets, priesthood was lost etc... but where in the bible do we learn that Abraham was rejected for example and the priesthood was lost? What ch verse?

With Noah after the water cleared out after the flood, where does it talk about rejection of truth to the point we needed it restored to Abraham?

Am I making sense? Trust me I get the while Apostasy pattern... I was a missionary myself... but would like to be able to site exact scriptures. (I can't seem to find any clear verses)

It's not that people "rejected the prophets".

It is an issue of authority not being passed down.
If all the Apostles and Seventy die and they don't ordain anyone else to the Apostleship no rejection is needed.  There is simply nobody on earth who holds sufficient authority to administer in the ordinances.
Abraham ordained Isaac, Isaac ordained Jacob/Israel,  Israel ordained Joseph, Joseph ordained Ephraim....and then their descendants remained in Egypt.  (I know that isn't the exact ordination list but you get the point).
By the time Moses came around there was nobody left who had been given all the priesthood.  His father in law Jethro the Midianite had some degree of priesthood, but not all.

Or take Enoch.  Enoch held all the priesthood, but he and his entire city were taken from the earth.  If nobody on earth remained holding all the priesthood a new dispensation becomes needed.

You want scriptures that say these things in detail?  I don't think they exist but simple reasoning still exists. (ie, Enoch and his people were taken from the Earth, God dispensed priesthood keys to Noah.)
 

[TrueSoldier]

34 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

It's not that people "rejected the prophets".

It is an issue of authority not being passed down.
If all the Apostles and Seventy die and they don't ordain anyone else to the Apostleship no rejection is needed.  There is simply nobody on earth who holds sufficient authority to administer in the ordinances.
Abraham ordained Isaac, Isaac ordained Jacob/Israel,  Israel ordained Joseph, Joseph ordained Ephraim....and then their descendants remained in Egypt.  (I know that isn't the exact ordination list but you get the point).
By the time Moses came around there was nobody left who had been given all the priesthood.  His father in law Jethro the Midianite had some degree of priesthood, but not all.

Or take Enoch.  Enoch held all the priesthood, but he and his entire city were taken from the earth.  If nobody on earth remained holding all the priesthood a new dispensation becomes needed.

You want scriptures that say these things in detail?  I don't think they exist but simple reasoning still exists. (ie, Enoch and his people were taken from the Earth, God dispensed priesthood keys to Noah.)
 

That is helpful thank you. I hadn't looked at it that way before. I think as a missionary sometimes for the sake of keeping things simple with investigators you tend to oversimplify things. 

If anyone has the time/knowledge (it's ok if you don't have a scripture verse) I would be curious if someone could briefly help me understand what happened to end the dispensations with:

 

● Adam to Enoch

(I read that Adam in D&C 107:48 called Enoch and others to be high priests 3 years before he died, but not sure why that was a new dispensation)

 

● Noah to Abraham (After the flood cleared why did the dispensation end)

 

I think if I was more clear on those 2 dispensations I can pretty much piece the rest of it together.

[probablyHagoth7]

1 hour ago, TrueSoldier said:

With Noah after the water cleared out after the flood, where does it talk about rejection of truth to the point we needed it restored to Abraham?

1. Shem, Noah's son, was contemporary with Abraham.

2. (And in some LDS & Jewish circles, Shem=Melchizedek, who knew Abraham.)

 

Make of that what you wish.

 

"Dispensation" has meanings above and beyond the one-size-fits-all LDS paradigm. (English is a bit more rich in meaning than the pauper we sometimes assume it to be.) Your results may vary...contents may settle during shipping...

Thoughts?

Edited May 19, 2017 by probablyHagoth7

[probablyHagoth7]

49 minutes ago, TrueSoldier said:

● Adam to Enoch   (I read that Adam in D&C 107:48 called Enoch and others to be high priests 3 years before he died, but not sure why that was a new dispensation)

The calling was new to Enoch, if that counts. And it produced a new result (for that generation), if that also counts. 

Effective ministry requires ongoing inspiration. And inspiration is dispensed (i.e. *any* inspiration/revelation *is* a dispensation).... 

"...and the doctrine of the priesthood shall distil upon thy soul as the dews from heaven..." https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/121.45?lang=eng#p44

Thoughts?

Edited May 19, 2017 by probablyHagoth7

[Guest]

19 hours ago, TrueSoldier said:

What happened during each dispensation to cause it to end?

Adam
Enoch
Noah
Abraham
Moses
Jesus Christ (this one more obvious)

Scripture references are greatly appreciated.

I am not sure it is just an ending, but instead evolving into another. 

Edited May 19, 2017 by Bill "Papa" Lee

[The Nehor]

A new dispensation is a renewal of the gospel. Each dispensation receives revelation sufficient to establish the gospel largely independent from the revelations of previous dispensations. There is no requirement to lose Priesthood keys or the Priesthood.

[JLHPROF]

9 hours ago, The Nehor said:

A new dispensation is a renewal of the gospel. Each dispensation receives revelation sufficient to establish the gospel largely independent from the revelations of previous dispensations. There is no requirement to lose Priesthood keys or the Priesthood.

Are you suggesting that men holding all the keys of priesthood and the ability to perform ordinances don't have the knowledge to use what they have and need revelation to reinstitute the gospel plan?

[TrueSoldier]

Thank you all for your comments so far.

I've been internalizing what I've been reading and realising that the word "dispensation" may not be as cut and dry as I once previously understood it to be. I think this former thinking was from sources like "Preach my Gospel" where terms may be broadly simplified, for example:

Lesson 1- "Whenever people choose to disregard, disobey, or distort any gospel principle or ordinance, whenever they reject the Lord’s prophets, or whenever they fail to endure in faith, they distance themselves from God and begin to live in spiritual darkness. Eventually this leads to a condition called apostasy. When widespread apostasy occurs, God withdraws His priesthood authority to teach and administer the ordinances of the gospel.

Biblical history has recorded many instances of God speaking to prophets, and it also tells of many instances of apostasy. To end each period of general apostasy, God has shown His love for His children by calling another prophet and giving him priesthood authority to restore and teach the gospel of Jesus Christ anew. In essence, the prophet acts as a steward to oversee the household of God here on earth. Such periods of time headed by prophetic responsibility are called dispensations. Such periods of time headed by prophetic responsibility are called dispensations."

So this line of thinking caused me to conclude that each new "dispensation" had to have been the result of a loss of priesthood, rejection of prophets, or distortion of the gospel. As a result God withdrawing his priesthood and therefore the people needing one to restore it again much like Joseph Smith did in this last and current dispensation.

So it's been very eye opening to see for example that Adam to Enoch, yes there was some apostasy going on in some circles, but the Priesthood was still on the earth. God hadn't withdrawn it completely like Preach My Gospel kind of generally would have me believe would have been the case. Instead it and was passed from Adam directly to Enoch. (D&C 107:48).  So looking at it more as "Bill "Papa" Lee mentioned, not as an "ending, but instead an evolving into another" is actually very helpful.

For me this also gives more meaning to what has been referred to as "The Great Apostasy" (the time prior to Joseph Smith where there was zero priesthood power and saving ordinances on the earth). It becomes more "great" when you compare it to some former dispensations where the priesthood was either smoothly passed on (Adam to Enoch) or there was still part of the priesthood intact (Abraham to Moses).

So again thank you all for opening my mind up more on the the meaning of dispensations.

[Robert F. Smith]

18 hours ago, TrueSoldier said:

What happened during each dispensation to cause it to end?

Adam
Enoch
Noah
Abraham
Moses
Jesus Christ (this one more obvious)

Scripture references are greatly appreciated.

Could it be that each dispensation is predestined to end on schedule so that a new dispensation may begin?  For educational and experiential purposes?

[strappinglad]

Does anyone here know of records where a gospel dispensation has been delivered to China or India, or for that matter most of Africa? I am speaking of before this current dispensation. Arguably , the majority of earth's inhabitants have lived in those areas for most of recorded history. If they have been left out, I wonder why. I am aware of tiny pockets of Jewish traditions and Christian ones scattered in Asia.

[probablyHagoth7]

2 hours ago, strappinglad said:

Does anyone here know of records where a gospel dispensation has been delivered to China...I am speaking of before this current dispensation. 

Roughly a year ago, I came across an ancient account that strongly suggests such a thing for Asia.

I have moved since then, and most of my research is boxed up. (Some of it is gone.) Will see what the unpacking process unfolds.

[The Nehor]

15 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Are you suggesting that men holding all the keys of priesthood and the ability to perform ordinances don't have the knowledge to use what they have and need revelation to reinstitute the gospel plan?

No.

I am saying that God renews the gospel without apostasy by choosing a prophet and giving him visions and revelations that reveal everything all over again AND are commanded to reveal it. Enoch got the visions of Eternity. So did Moses. They got them despite their being Priesthood on the Earth for reasons best known to God.

[Robert F. Smith]

14 hours ago, probablyHagoth7 said:

Roughly a year ago, I came across an ancient account that strongly suggests such a thing for Asia.

I have moved since then, and most of my research is boxed up. (Some of it is gone.) Will see what the unpacking process unfolds.

Perhaps you are thinking of the Hindu system of yuga-years, which begins Feb 18, 3102 B.C. (Julian), which then proceeds to move through four dispensations of 4,320,000 human years, which = 1 mahayuga “great-year; aeon.” Just to give an idea of scale, one day in the life of the god Brahma (1 kalpa) is 2,000 mahayugas.  Brahmā lives 100 years, is now 50 years old, so that he is now 432,000,000,000 x 360 = 155,520,000,000,000 human years old.  Each life of Brahmā is followed by an equally long period of pralaya “abeyance” – sleep of the universe – before another creator-god begins it all anew.  1 pralaya = 864,000,000,000 x 360 = 311,040,000,000,0000 human years.  Each kalpa contains 14 manvantaras, or secondary cycles with long intervals between, in each of which the world is recreated and a new Manu (king) appears as the progenitor of the human race.  We are currently in the seventh manvantara (that of Manu Vaivasvata).

You may have noticed that the Hindu system is based on the 360-day year, as is the Mesoamerican Long Count, which also begins at the same time.  See David H. Kelley, “The World Ages in India and Mesoamerica,” SEHA Newsletter, 137 (Mar 1975):1-18.

[Honorentheos]

As a believing LDS I understood each dispensation was associated with a covenant or group of covenants, and that this dispensation of the fullness of times was where all covenants and associated blessings were made available.

With Adam the covenant was that made after he and Eve were kicked out of the garden. Modern temple-worthy LDS also enter into the same convenants.

Enoch was that of Zion and becoming a Zion people.

With Noah, it was the covenant that God would not destroy humankind and all the jazz that went along with that.

Abraham was the partiarchal blessings.

Moses, the chosen people of God as symbolized by the law.

Jesus Christ the atonement and fulfilling of the law.

 

[TOmNossor]

I think I will just point to this article which I really liked.

I think it points to God's church leaders causing the past apostasies.  

This article gave me a reasonable explanation of why this is the last dispensation (why couldn't other dispensations have never devolved into apostasy?).

http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/larsen-v15-2015-pp239-266-PDF.pdf

Charity, TOm

[hagoth7]

On 5/18/2017 at 3:59 PM, TrueSoldier said:

What happened during each dispensation to cause it to end?

...Abraham
Moses
Jesus Christ (this one more obvious)

Scripture references are greatly appreciated.

Being that we have little scriptural reference for what marks the end of each dispensation, and in some cases distinct prophetic timelines, I currently believe that minus a specific revealed timeline, that a dispensation is generally deemed to have ended when subsequent revelation is rejected by those adhering to a previous dispensation.

Examples

1. The 400-year Abrahamic timeline that was fulfilled through Moses - see last chapter of Genesis and first chapter of Exodus...also Acts 7.

2. When Judaism rejected Jesus of Nazareth...the fulfillment of almost everything they claimed to believe (and the fulfillment of specific timelines through Daniel, Lehi, etc.).

3. When the prophet Joseph was rejected by Christianity at large (and associated timelines through Daniel, John/Revelation, and the likes of Lyman Wight).

 

Fortunately, in most cases, a subsequent generation could opt to enlist in the cause their forefathers had chosen to reject.

Missing from the equation is the more diverse reality that episodes such as Lehi/Nephi represented a new/lengthy dispensation for a specific branch of Israel.

[Navidad]

My question is asked only to better understand the guidelines of the forum. This is the Social Hall and this thread is a pretty heavy theological discussion. The guidelines say the Social Hall is for "friendly discussions." I thought that meant - how is the family; Which is the last movie you watched; etc. Is this thread ok because no one has interjected opposing views that might be seen as being ornery - therefore not friendly? I thought about offering a Darbyian view of dispensations to expand the conversation because that is what I have been taught, but decided against it because a. I can't yet edit anything and I don't trust my fingers which have entered the dispensation in my life of not always hitting the keys I desire. and b. Offering a different perspective might be taken by some as contentious even though I wouldn't mean it in that spirit. 

Several of those who have greeted me to the forum have indicated they would like to learn more about what Mennonites believe. I am not sure whether that interest includes theological distinctives and similarities or simply what is shoo-fly pie and scrapple?  Yum, makes me hungry!

 

[Navidad]

3 minutes ago, Navidad said:

My question is asked only to better understand the guidelines of the forum. This is the Social Hall and this thread is a pretty heavy theological discussion. The guidelines say the Social Hall is for "friendly discussions." I thought that meant - how is the family; Which is the last movie you watched; etc. Is this thread ok because no one has interjected opposing views that might be seen as being ornery - therefore not friendly? I thought about offering a Darbyian view of dispensations to expand the conversation because that is what I have been taught, but decided against it because a. I can't yet edit anything and I don't trust my fingers which have entered the dispensation in my life of not always hitting the keys I desire. and b. Offering a different perspective might be taken by some as contentious even though I wouldn't mean it in that spirit. 

Several of those who have greeted me to the forum have indicated they would like to learn more about what Mennonites believe. I am not sure whether that interest includes theological distinctives and similarities or simply what is shoo-fly pie and scrapple?  Yum, makes me hungry!

 

Oh, and let me add one more thing - from having attended a number of LDS Fireside chats (at some of which I have spoken) and a number of potluck dinners, I am of the opinion that the greatest theological similarity between Mennonites and Mormons is the ubiquitous nature of snickerdoodles at their social events!  I knew I could find common ground with Mormons the minute I saw all the snickerdoodles on the serving tables.