Is it right for the church to go after members' estates or stocks, rather than for them to sell and then donate to BYU instead?

[Tacenda]

I saw this on FB just now, it was 'liked' by someone I know (not close) that is friends with Kate Kelly. Kate's problem was with the idea that students at BYU didn't protest Vietnam or Equal Rights with flag burning etc. as if to say they just do what they're told. But as I watched further I saw something a little disturbing. And that is that BYU, the church, was going around asking people to give up their farm, or a piece of real estate or stocks and donate because of the great tax write off and then they would get a living allowance. I'm not positive, but I believe my in laws have given up stock to the church, not sure about if it went to BYU. And they told their children that rather than see them fight over money etc. after they are gone, they would rather donate it to the church.

Does this old video sit well with any of you? If it does, then please enlighten me, since it is the reason my husband won't pay tithing any longer. Therefore no current temple recommend, and we have to figure out another way to get out of going to the temple in April for my mother in law's birthday, all because my husband believes he had given up many opportunities in life to work for his dad, who promised he and his brothers they would be compensated later, but this is now not the case.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpWj2DBsQiQ&feature=youtu.be

 

[cinepro]

The best thing to do would be to watch this video:

It doesn't actually address any of the issues you brought up, but I guarantee you that video will make you forget all about them.

[mfbukowski]

28 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I saw this on FB just now, it was 'liked' by someone I know (not close) that is friends with Kate Kelly. Kate's problem was with the idea that students at BYU didn't protest Vietnam or Equal Rights with flag burning etc. as if to say they just do what they're told. But as I watched further I saw something a little disturbing. And that is that BYU, the church, was going around asking people to give up their farm, or a piece of real estate or stocks and donate because of the great tax write off and then they would get a living allowance. I'm not positive, but I believe my in laws have given up stock to the church, not sure about if it went to BYU. And they told their children that rather than see them fight over money etc. after they are gone, they would rather donate it to the church.

Does this old video sit well with any of you? If it does, then please enlighten me, since it is the reason my husband won't pay tithing any longer. Therefore no current temple recommend, and we have to figure out another way to get out of going to the temple in April for my mother in law's birthday, all because my husband believes he had given up many opportunities in life to work for his dad, who promised he and his brothers they would be compensated later, but this is now not the case.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpWj2DBsQiQ&feature=youtu.be

 

You do not understand estate planning.  It is what I do every day

This is called a "charitable remainder trust" and has been a legitimate giving device for years

Have you ever heard about rich people like Bill Gates having a foundation?   Why do you think they do that?  

If you have assets above 5.4 million dollars they could be taxed at a 40% or more rate when you give them to your kids.  With this kind of device, you give the assets to charity and the charity (or your own foundation- Gates set up his own "charity") gives you back an income stream

Money that would have gone to the govenment then can be distributed to the charity and your kids.  The goverment does this to encourage charitable giving

This is one of a zillion website explaining the strategy- this one is from Fidelity

https://www.fidelitycharitable.org/giving-strategies/give/trust.shtml?campaign=718691756&adgroup=37388816837&keyword=charitable remainder trust&matchtype=e&device=c&network=g&account=adgrant&gclid=Cj0KEQiAxeTFBRCGmIq_7rGt_r8BEiQANdPqUk51oZ_WQGzJ6Ww_GBPTSJtFVuFK-u2ABAx08FiiQYAaAuse8P8HAQ

Virtually anyone with assets more than 5.4 million per person (10.8 for a couple) would be eligible for this kind of strategy and every movie star, polititian etc does this

Any time you hear of some funding by a "charitable trust" this is essentially what has been done.

A Family Foundation essentially creates your own "charity" from which you have to give a percentage of your investment annually to a "real" charity.

In the mean time your kids can get salaries and get to go around looking important giving away scholarships, donating to public radio, and making your foundation famous and making them famous as the director of the foundation.  Movie stars etc get big political clout donating to campaigns etc or doing all kinds of things "for charity"

Essentially all you have to do is set up a 501-c3 corporation with your charitable trust and you can contribute to whatever cause you like.   Otherwise the government gets it

Edited March 3, 2017 by mfbukowski

[Duncan]

Just now, cinepro said:

The best thing to do would be to watch this video:

It doesn't actually address any of the issues you brought up, but I guarantee you that video will make you forget all about them.

did you find this on the "hard to find Mormon videos" site on youtube?!

[Calm]

40 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Therefore no current temple recommend, and we have to figure out another way to get out of going to the temple in April for my mother in law's birthday

 

Schedule some surgery...that has worked for some I know though one didn't do it intentionally (had brain surgery while his son was getting married).

Edited March 3, 2017 by Calm

[Tacenda]

18 minutes ago, Calm said:

Schedule some surgery...that has worked for some I know though one didn't do it intentionally (had brain surgery while his son was getting married).

At first I thought you were trying to be funny Cal! Okay, now what could I use, hmmm...

[Tacenda]

38 minutes ago, cinepro said:

The best thing to do would be to watch this video:

It doesn't actually address any of the issues you brought up, but I guarantee you that video will make you forget all about them.

Ha! I used this one to put off doing geneology! A time to not do it, maybe later.

Edited March 3, 2017 by Tacenda

[Tacenda]

39 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

You do not understand estate planning.  It is what I do every day

This is called a "charitable remainder trust" and has been a legitimate giving device for years

Have you ever heard about rich people like Bill Gates having a foundation?   Why do you think they do that?  

If you have assets above 5.4 million dollars they could be taxed at a 40% or more rate when you give them to your kids.  With this kind of device, you give the assets to charity and the charity (or your own foundation- Gates set up his own "charity") gives you back an income stream

Money that would have gone to the govenment then can be distributed to the charity and your kids.  The goverment does this to encourage charitable giving

This is one of a zillion website explaining the strategy- this one is from Fidelity

https://www.fidelitycharitable.org/giving-strategies/give/trust.shtml?campaign=718691756&adgroup=37388816837&keyword=charitable remainder trust&matchtype=e&device=c&network=g&account=adgrant&gclid=Cj0KEQiAxeTFBRCGmIq_7rGt_r8BEiQANdPqUk51oZ_WQGzJ6Ww_GBPTSJtFVuFK-u2ABAx08FiiQYAaAuse8P8HAQ

Virtually anyone with assets more than 5.4 million per person (10.8 for a couple) would be eligible for this kind of strategy and every movie star, polititian etc does this

Any time you hear of some funding by a "charitable trust" this is essentially what has been done.

A Family Foundation essentially creates your own "charity" from which you have to give a percentage of your investment annually to a "real" charity.

In the mean time your kids can get salaries and get to go around looking important giving away scholarships, donating to public radio, and making your foundation famous and making them famous as the director of the foundation.  Movie stars etc get big political clout donating to campaigns etc or doing all kinds of things "for charity"

Essentially all you have to do is set up a 501-c3 corporation with your charitable trust and you can contribute to whatever cause you like.   Otherwise the government gets it

I'm sorry but my in laws are not that wealthy. In the video it didn't show that these people were millionaires. 

[Tacenda]

I have to say this..I don't want my in law's money, it's theirs to spend however they would wish. It's how the church goes after these people.

Edited March 3, 2017 by Tacenda

[cinepro]

7 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Ha! I used this one to put off doing geneology! A time to not do it, maybe later.

Interestingly, "A Time to Not Do It.  Maybe Later..." was the original title for the video.

[Tacenda]

1 minute ago, cinepro said:

Interestingly, "A Time to Not Do It.  Maybe Later..." was the original title for the video.

LOL!

[Danzo]

8 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I have to say this..I don't want my in law's money, it's theirs to spend however they would wish. It's how the church goes after these people.

you don't want it . . .

But you don't want the church to have it?

[Calm]

26 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

At first I thought you were trying to be funny Cal! Okay, now what could I use, hmmm...

Semiserious, I did have a friend do exactly that.  I was her substitute, she shared with me later why she had done it.  I was very happy for the opportunity.

I am not sure it is worth it, but if you are going to get some anyway.

Personally I prefer to schedule any big medical stuff at beginning of fiscal year (August for us).  We have had two years where we haven't paid anything but the copay after September.  Gone and done a few things I have been putting off for years, such as a weird bump on my knee.  Bad enough the body is playing games, nice not to have to pay to figure it isn't a big deal.  Sorta sorry to be driving up the health care costs of others, but less stress worrying may be cheaper in the long run for the community (great excuse, right?)

Edited March 3, 2017 by Calm

[Tacenda]

32 minutes ago, Danzo said:

you don't want it . . .

But you don't want the church to have it?

No, the grandkids or great grandkids could probably use it possibly, they have a huge family. Why should a several billion dollar church have it? Did you watch the full video? I do like Paul Harvey at the end though.

Edited March 3, 2017 by Tacenda

[juliann]

38 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I have to say this..I don't want my in law's money, it's theirs to spend however they would wish. It's how the church goes after these people.

 My tax lady tells me to give stock to the church instead of tithing. Sit down and talk to a CPA or estate planner for crying out loud.

[Tacenda]

1 minute ago, juliann said:

 My tax lady tells me to give stock to the church instead of tithing. Sit down and talk to a CPA or estate planner for crying out loud.

Well I did ask to be enlightened.

[juliann]

2 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

No, the grandkids or great grandkids could probably use it possibly, they have a huge family. Why should a several billion dollar church have it?

Because the people the money belongs to can choose what to do with it.  Would you prefer that people be able to vote how you are allowed to allocate your personal funds?

[Tacenda]

9 minutes ago, juliann said:

Because the people the money belongs to can choose what to do with it.  Would you prefer that people be able to vote how you are allowed to allocate your personal funds?

But, a big but, do most members know how the church intends to use their money? Wouldn't mind if it went to humanitarian aid. But I do know where you're coming from, it's none of my business.

Edited March 3, 2017 by Tacenda

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I saw this on FB just now, it was 'liked' by someone I know (not close) that is friends with Kate Kelly. Kate's problem was with the idea that students at BYU didn't protest Vietnam or Equal Rights with flag burning etc. as if to say they just do what they're told. But as I watched further I saw something a little disturbing. And that is that BYU, the church, was going around asking people to give up their farm, or a piece of real estate or stocks and donate because of the great tax write off and then they would get a living allowance. I'm not positive, but I believe my in laws have given up stock to the church, not sure about if it went to BYU. And they told their children that rather than see them fight over money etc. after they are gone, they would rather donate it to the church.

Does this old video sit well with any of you? If it does, then please enlighten me, since it is the reason my husband won't pay tithing any longer. Therefore no current temple recommend, and we have to figure out another way to get out of going to the temple in April for my mother in law's birthday, all because my husband believes he had given up many opportunities in life to work for his dad, who promised he and his brothers they would be compensated later, but this is now not the case.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpWj2DBsQiQ&feature=youtu.be .

The date on that video was 1969, and it used footage shot throughout the 1960s.  Far out of date, but fun to reminisce for those of us who were at BYU back then.  Thanks.

Kate Kelly doesn't know anything about life back then, and is clearly ignorant of the Mormons who were directly involved in civil rights work and in opposition to the War in Vietnam.

The giving program applied then as now is currently known under the heading "annuity," and is commonly applied nation-wide by many charitable and non-charitable institutions.  Even Tom Selleck has been speaking on behalf of annuities lately.  I don't understand why you would be disturbed by that, Tacenda.  No one is being coerced to give anything.

As to your husband being bitter about his father lying to him, that is unrelated to the issues you raise here.  In the case of Warren Buffett (not a Mormon), he has intentionally declared that  his children will not get the bulk of his wealth at his death.  He rightly thinks that it would be bad for them, and I agree.

[Tacenda]

14 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The date on that video was 1969, and it used footage shot throughout the 1960s.  Far out of date, but fun to reminisce for those of us who were at BYU back then.  Thanks.

Kate Kelly doesn't know anything about life back then, and is clearly ignorant of the Mormons who were directly involved in civil rights work and in opposition to the War in Vietnam.

The giving program applied then as now is currently known under the heading "annuity," and is commonly applied nation-wide by many charitable and non-charitable institutions.  Even Tom Selleck has been speaking on behalf of annuities lately.  I don't understand why you would be disturbed by that, Tacenda.  No one is being coerced to give anything.

As to your husband being bitter about his father lying to him, that is unrelated to the issues you raise here.  In the case of Warren Buffett (not a Mormon), he has intentionally declared that  his children will not get the bulk of his wealth at his death.  He rightly thinks that it would be bad for them, and I agree.

It may be the same thing as Buffet, but of course they weren't super wealthy. Many years ago, my in laws had some very wealthy friends that were killed when their small plane went down. My in laws were actually supposed to be on that plane but they changed plans at the last moment. The couple's children did kind of go down hill and fought over all that money. A lot of problems that my in laws saw first hand. So you have a very good point Robert. But the sons (my husband and his brothers) did have many opportunities to earn more money elsewhere and a few of them wanted to start their own business in the same field but their father told them not to because it would compete against his company, and that he would make it worth it if they didn't, so they all stayed with the company, and nothing to show for it, except they do have good pensions, they were union ironworkers. My husband and I paid thousands in tithing, so I guess my husband believes he's paid enough if the church gets what was supposedly coming to him.

My husband has even discussed this with the bishop, my bishop works for the church in this very field and was sad that it had happened.

Edited March 3, 2017 by Tacenda

[Robert F. Smith]

3 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

It may be, because many years ago, my in laws had some very wealthy friends that were killed when their small plane went down. My in laws were actually supposed to be on that plane but they changed plans at the last moment. The couple's children did kind of go down hill and fought over all that money. A lot of problems that my in laws saw first hand. So you have a very good point Robert. But the sons did have many opportunities to earn more money elsewhere and a few of them wanted to start their own business in the same field but their father told them not to because it would compete against his company, and that he would make it worth it if they didn't, so they all stayed with the company, and nothing to show for it. My husband and I paid thousands in tithing, so I guess my husband believes he's paid enough if the church gets what was coming to him.

Fine and dandy, Tacenda, but the Church has nothing to do with the lies or false guarantees give to your husband by his father.  One mustn't confuse the two, no matter how bitter one becomes.

[Bob Crockett]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I saw this on FB just now, it was 'liked' by someone I know (not close) that is friends with Kate Kelly. Kate's problem was with the idea that students at BYU didn't protest Vietnam or Equal Rights with flag burning etc. as if to say they just do what they're told. But as I watched further I saw something a little disturbing. And that is that BYU, the church, was going around asking people to give up their farm, or a piece of real estate or stocks and donate because of the great tax write off and then they would get a living allowance. I'm not positive, but I believe my in laws have given up stock to the church, not sure about if it went to BYU. And they told their children that rather than see them fight over money etc. after they are gone, they would rather donate it to the church.

Does this old video sit well with any of you? If it does, then please enlighten me, since it is the reason my husband won't pay tithing any longer. Therefore no current temple recommend, and we have to figure out another way to get out of going to the temple in April for my mother in law's birthday, all because my husband believes he had given up many opportunities in life to work for his dad, who promised he and his brothers they would be compensated later, but this is now not the case.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpWj2DBsQiQ&feature=youtu.be

 

Your husband won't pay tithing because his dad promised him money his dad is now donating to the Church?  And he blames the church for working for his dad instead of doing his own thing?  I'd carry a protest sign around the church on Sunday if that happened to me!  No, really, charitable death bequests are as ancient as old Rome, where temples and statues were erected by the dead.  It is a way, lots of people think, of perpetuating one's name after death.

Edited March 3, 2017 by Bob Crockett

[Jeanne]

Just when I thought the church couldn't bleed one anymore..Shouldn't something like this not be requested but voluntary?  This take some real gall (IMO)One has paid tithes..sent sons and daughters on missions..volunteered services, time and expense.is that not enough?  Whatever stipend is derived from land or stocks etc..does not inherit a healthy relationship with mortal families. 

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

I'm sorry but my in laws are not that wealthy. In the video it didn't show that these people were millionaires. 

1- That video is nearly 50 years old.  The numbers have changed drastically in 50 years.  

A house like this one would typically cost under $40,000. in the late 60's  http://www.thepeoplehistory.com/60s-homes.html

In my memory the salary for a beginning lawyer was $15,000 in 1974.  

2- I was talking about estate planning BUT ANY GIFT which would have capital gains tax would benefit from being donated rather than selling it, realizing the capital gains tax, and then making a contribution. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO BE A MILLIONAIRE FOR THIS TO WORK.   This is a VERY simple fact of tax planning, and I don't care if you want to imagine the church being evil instead of learning a little about the tax system but there is not much I can do about it.  Call a CPA or your bishop.

I never thought THAT advice would be in the same sentence. 

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, juliann said:

 My tax lady tells me to give stock to the church instead of tithing. Sit down and talk to a CPA or estate planner for crying out loud.

THAT is an excellent strategy especially if the stock is highly appreciated.  That stock gift could be worth 30% more to the church than to you.

In other words, your gift of $100 in stock to the church might only net you $70 after taxes.  Then you would only give $70 to the church instead of $100.

Edited March 3, 2017 by mfbukowski