The purpose of Church

[stemelbow]

Yesterday, amid all the chaos that becomes sacrament for my family, I caught most of of talk by a kindly gentleman in our ward.  He shared a story that he had recently.  I didn't really catch the setting, but somehow he found himself talking with a girl.  In the conversation the girl opened up and told him she has been hurting or sad, because she was at a party, got drugged, then raped.  She was, he said, most disturbed because the Spirit did not help her to avoid the situation.  He then realized why the SPirit did not help her avoid the bad situation.  He told her she shouldn't have been at the party, shouldn't have been with those friends.  In so doing she had not listened to the Spirit and thus was not going to get the help when needed.  It was, in his mind, the lightbulb effect the girl needed. 

I was appalled.  It really made me sick to think he had this conversation with this girl.  This girl did nothing wrong, at least as his story indicated.  She did not drink.  She was a victim.  I was really down and not feeling good about it.  Really I was sick to my stomach, but I went to GD class anyway.  At some point the conversation about his talk broke out with everyone praising his part in the story and the "failure" of the girl.  I felt defeated at this time and didn't respond, which I regret.  I was just so disappointed.  I'm sad to think about this girl.  I'm sad to think those in my ward have such a view that it's ok, no, not ok, but that it's best to tell a girl she made bad choices and thus was raped.  That's not how to talk to a victim of rape, right?  That is in my view, probably the most destructive and heartless way he could have handled the conversation. 

Other stories were shared about how the SPirit helped find keys (again) and other such stuff.  The "authorities" in the room reminded everyone how to keep the spirit in spite of the bad world around us.  And I lamented...every inspiring story told is a story held by all other people in some way or another.  Says I, "of course even murderers have some sort of epiphany and find their keys at some point".  I'm pretty sure I'm the bad guy in our ward, overall, with most people wishing I didn't ever say anything.  So I completely hold back these days, but I shared that one thought, which didn't really catch anyone's attention. 

I hate to say it, but this is just one story of many that has me really down about Church.  I don't relate very well.  I've tried over the years and at different times have felt like I've found a place, found a way to contribute and all that.  But more and more those moments are fleeting.  I guess I'm saying this and being dramatic about it, because it's making me sad to think I'll lose Church.  But recently I've almost felt like it might be best to give it up or give it a break. 

Is it possible God will lead people out of the Church for HIs own purposes?  I've always felt like He does.  The Church is just one teeny tiny org among many resources God has to lead and guide people, to help us along.  I'm guessing some of you would not in a million years consider it like this.  But, if you are that way, I want to understand that too.  I want to know why or how. 

 

[Tacenda]

There isn't a lonelier moment, or there probably is, but it is the loneliest moment in a church setting, when you feel like you stand alone in your thoughts. I'm sorry you went through that.

A few years ago I went through the same thing when a woman in Gospel Doctrine class mentioned how disgusted she was with the gays adopting children. Her tone expressed such a hatred for them, and no one seemed like they disagreed but me. 

 

[Jeanne]

Well..there goes the idea that one could turn to God in trials and tribulations.  I have decided to forego lunch as I am sick as well.  This is not the forgiving God that I believe in. 

Edited to add:  Why is it that one can go to God for lost keys...but in the aloneness of rape..she is blamed? 

Edited February 13, 2017 by Jeanne

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

Is it possible God will lead people out of the Church for HIs own purposes?  I've always felt like He does.

That story you relate is more than distressing. It represents a real problem. 

But to answer this question, it is always NO.
And anyone who feels that way has been misled.

And to your thread topic: The purpose of the Church is simple - to lead us to the temple.  Because in the end, no matter what else happens in life, God's work and glory and the primary concern.

[stemelbow]

28 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

That story you relate is more than distressing. It represents a real problem. 

Thanks for saying as much.  Sometimes you start a feel a little crazy when everyone seems ok with something that really negative effects you. 

28 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

But to answer this question, it is always NO.
And anyone who feels that way has been misled.

What if you're misled.  You wouldn't know at all, right?  Perhaps God does inspire people to leave to fulfill his greater work, by having them in different places.  How would you possibly know God would not do that?  He is not limited in that He can only accomplish the greater goods through those in HIs Church, no? 

28 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

And to your thread topic: The purpose of the Church is simple - to lead us to the temple.  Because in the end, no matter what else happens in life, God's work and glory and the primary concern.

The temple is fine and dandy, sure.  But the work of it will continue on with or without me.  Perhaps He has in store for me another work.  The temple is not all there is to good and truth.  God is not bound by it's walls.  It barely reaches the tiniest portion of people on earth and barely reaches an even smaller portion of people who have ever lived, through it's ordinances. 

[Johnnie Cake]

3 hours ago, stemelbow said:

Yesterday, amid all the chaos that becomes sacrament for my family, I caught most of of talk by a kindly gentleman in our ward.  He shared a story that he had recently.  I didn't really catch the setting, but somehow he found himself talking with a girl.  In the conversation the girl opened up and told him she has been hurting or sad, because she was at a party, got drugged, then raped.  She was, he said, most disturbed because the Spirit did not help her to avoid the situation.  He then realized why the SPirit did not help her avoid the bad situation.  He told her she shouldn't have been at the party, shouldn't have been with those friends.  In so doing she had not listened to the Spirit and thus was not going to get the help when needed.  It was, in his mind, the lightbulb effect the girl needed. 

I was appalled.  It really made me sick to think he had this conversation with this girl.  This girl did nothing wrong, at least as his story indicated.  She did not drink.  She was a victim.  I was really down and not feeling good about it.  Really I was sick to my stomach, but I went to GD class anyway.  At some point the conversation about his talk broke out with everyone praising his part in the story and the "failure" of the girl.  I felt defeated at this time and didn't respond, which I regret.  I was just so disappointed.  I'm sad to think about this girl.  I'm sad to think those in my ward have such a view that it's ok, no, not ok, but that it's best to tell a girl she made bad choices and thus was raped.  That's not how to talk to a victim of rape, right?  That is in my view, probably the most destructive and heartless way he could have handled the conversation. 

Other stories were shared about how the SPirit helped find keys (again) and other such stuff.  The "authorities" in the room reminded everyone how to keep the spirit in spite of the bad world around us.  And I lamented...every inspiring story told is a story held by all other people in some way or another.  Says I, "of course even murderers have some sort of epiphany and find their keys at some point".  I'm pretty sure I'm the bad guy in our ward, overall, with most people wishing I didn't ever say anything.  So I completely hold back these days, but I shared that one thought, which didn't really catch anyone's attention. 

I hate to say it, but this is just one story of many that has me really down about Church.  I don't relate very well.  I've tried over the years and at different times have felt like I've found a place, found a way to contribute and all that.  But more and more those moments are fleeting.  I guess I'm saying this and being dramatic about it, because it's making me sad to think I'll lose Church.  But recently I've almost felt like it might be best to give it up or give it a break. 

Is it possible God will lead people out of the Church for HIs own purposes?  I've always felt like He does.  The Church is just one teeny tiny org among many resources God has to lead and guide people, to help us along.  I'm guessing some of you would not in a million years consider it like this.  But, if you are that way, I want to understand that too.  I want to know why or how. 

 

My initial reaction was...What a totally insensitive ***...but after giving it some thought I've concluded that he was a totally insensitive ***

 

I know its par for the course and exactly what posters expect me to say...but this story is upsetting on so many levels.  Was this man an outlier or the product of just being Mormon.? While my information is limited from what you have shared his views were also shared by other members of your ward and not a single member offered any check to his view.  While I hate to paint with a board brush and I know that there are always exceptions...I fear that this man's worldview is common in the church.  Its a worldview of judging others from the comfort of your private rameumptom. The church talks of compassion and yet so many members who are the product of church attendance share the same opinion of condemnation towards this poor girl.  Shame on them...this whole matter disgust me.  I've seen this same pattern of judging others throughout the church. body shaming, guiling the girl who wears a strapless prom dress, looking down ones nose at the member drinking coffee and yes shaming the rape victim and in effect blaming the victim for her own rape, for not listening to the so called spirit.

The pattern is seen at BYU  in how they've attacked rape victims there, its seen in wards, its seen in how the church has declared war on the LGBQ community...its seems to be pervasive in the culture...a holier than thou mentality and a freedom to judge others

Edited February 13, 2017 by Johnnie Cake

[CV75]

2 hours ago, stemelbow said:

I hate to say it, but this is just one story of many that has me really down about Church.  I don't relate very well.  I've tried over the years and at different times have felt like I've found a place, found a way to contribute and all that.  But more and more those moments are fleeting.  I guess I'm saying this and being dramatic about it, because it's making me sad to think I'll lose Church.  But recently I've almost felt like it might be best to give it up or give it a break. 

Is it possible God will lead people out of the Church for HIs own purposes?  I've always felt like He does.  The Church is just one teeny tiny org among many resources God has to lead and guide people, to help us along.  I'm guessing some of you would not in a million years consider it like this.  But, if you are that way, I want to understand that too.  I want to know why or how.

While the bad ideas and behaviors of others can negatively affect us to the point of self-destruction, Christ can likewise influence us in the other direction. I don’t believe He would lead anyone that He led into the Church back out of the Church. I think it is relatively rare that someone comes into the Church without the Lord leading him, and should that happen, the Lord still does all He can to inspire the right reasons for that person to stay in. He may excommunicate as a disciplinary effort to rescue, but I don’t envision Him leading anyone out since His grace is sufficient to overcome any offense that might arise from interacting with others. I think this is what Elder Uchtdorf meant in this talk:

 “And, to be perfectly frank, there have been times when members or leaders in the Church have simply made mistakes. There may have been things said or done that were not in harmony with our values, principles, or doctrine.

 “I suppose the Church would be perfect only if it were run by perfect beings. God is perfect, and His doctrine is pure. But He works through us—His imperfect children—and imperfect people make mistakes.

“It is unfortunate that some have stumbled because of mistakes made by men. But in spite of this, the eternal truth of the restored gospel found in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not tarnished, diminished, or destroyed. [My interjection: The eternal truth of the restored gospel is far, far more powerful than the stumbling anyone can do for whatever reason.]"

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2013/10/come-join-with-us?lang=eng

[Gray]

Unfortunately I think you'll find attitudes like this in just about any conservative religious tradition. And going to liberal churches won't guarantee that you won't hear offensive or stupid things either. At the end of the day that's kind of the price of admission for any community of any kind. 

Personally I don't think that God cares about religious authority or what church we go to. But, I would say that switching churches won't guarantee that you won't find yourself with similar frustrations in the new place. I would say that only you can know what will be best for you. 

[bluebell]

27 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

My initial reaction was...What a totally insensitive ***...but after giving it some thought I've concluded that he was a totally insensitive ***

 

I know its par for the course and exactly what posters expect me to say...but this story is upsetting on so many levels.  Was this man an outlier or the product of just being Mormon.? While my information is limited from what you have shared his views were also shared by other members of your ward and not a single member offered any check to his view.  While I hate to paint with a board brush and I know that there are always exceptions...I fear that this man's worldview is common in the church.  Its a worldview of judging others from the comfort of your private rameumptom. The church talks of compassion and yet so many members who are the product of church attendance share the same opinion of condemnation towards this poor girl.  Shame on them...this whole matter disgust me.  I've seen this same pattern of judging others throughout the church. body shaming, guiling the girl who wears a strapless prom dress, looking down ones nose at the member drinking coffee and yes shaming the rape victim and in effect blaming the victim for her own rape, for not listening to the so called spirit.

The pattern is seen at BYU  in how they've attacked rape victims there, its seen in wards, its seen in how the church has declared war on the LGBQ community...its seems to be pervasive in the culture...a holier than thou mentality and a freedom to judge others

I think the man was focused on the wrong thing.  He should have been focused on the girl and the horrible thing that happened to her.  Instead, he was focused on her question about trying to answer why the Spirit didn't warn her.

I don't know that we can say that his world view is that she got what she deserved.  Sometimes we don't say things because we are so focused on making a different point.  That doesn't mean though that we don't believe the other 'things'. 

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

The temple is fine and dandy, sure.  But the work of it will continue on with or without me.  Perhaps He has in store for me another work.  The temple is not all there is to good and truth.  God is not bound by it's walls.  It barely reaches the tiniest portion of people on earth and barely reaches an even smaller portion of people who have ever lived, through it's ordinances.

The work I speak of is for you, not for others.  The path back to God's presence walks directly through the temple and uses no other route.

As for the rest of the people on earth, 1000 years of non-stop temple ordinances should cover any who will accept.  But there is no other path.  We may roam in the wilderness completing other works for 40 years (or 80 or however long) but eventually the promised land requires walking through the temple.  No amount of Church service, charitable giving, leadership position, nor anything else can take its place.

God may allow people to roam and complete other works.  He may even sometimes direct them to do so.
But there is only one door back into his presence.
 

Edited February 13, 2017 by JLHPROF

[stemelbow]

44 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

My initial reaction was...What a totally insensitive ***...but after giving it some thought I've concluded that he was a totally insensitive ***

 

I know its par for the course and exactly what posters expect me to say...but this story is upsetting on so many levels.  Was this man an outlier or the product of just being Mormon.? While my information is limited from what you have shared his views were also shared by other members of your ward and not a single member offered any check to his view.  While I hate to paint with a board brush and I know that there are always exceptions...I fear that this man's worldview is common in the church.  Its a worldview of judging others from the comfort of your private rameumptom. The church talks of compassion and yet so many members who are the product of church attendance share the same opinion of condemnation towards this poor girl.  Shame on them...this whole matter disgust me.  I've seen this same pattern of judging others throughout the church. body shaming, guiling the girl who wears a strapless prom dress, looking down ones nose at the member drinking coffee and yes shaming the rape victim and in effect blaming the victim for her own rape, for not listening to the so called spirit.

The pattern is seen at BYU  in how they've attacked rape victims there, its seen in wards, its seen in how the church has declared war on the LGBQ community...its seems to be pervasive in the culture...a holier than thou mentality and a freedom to judge others

Sure.  And the Church is encompassed in a larger culture, mostly driven from the developed Western world.  There's problems of this magnitude no matter where you look.  It's frustrating and lately I've just feeling disconnected. 

[stemelbow]

30 minutes ago, Gray said:

Unfortunately I think you'll find attitudes like this in just about any conservative religious tradition. And going to liberal churches won't guarantee that you won't hear offensive or stupid things either. At the end of the day that's kind of the price of admission for any community of any kind. 

Personally I don't think that God cares about religious authority or what church we go to. But, I would say that switching churches won't guarantee that you won't find yourself with similar frustrations in the new place. I would say that only you can know what will be best for you. 

Fair enough.  Yesterday it hit me like none other, that my place in the Church is a bit lost.  I have to feel engaged.  if not I just feel like I don't belong and am trespassing into a space where I'm not wanted.  I guess I'm selfish like that. 

[stemelbow]

15 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I think the man was focused on the wrong thing.  He should have been focused on the girl and the horrible thing that happened to her.  Instead, he was focused on her question about trying to answer why the Spirit didn't warn her.

I don't know that we can say that his world view is that she got what she deserved.  Sometimes we don't say things because we are so focused on making a different point.  That doesn't mean though that we don't believe the other 'things'. 

I really don't think he'd say anything near she deserved it.  But we can't deny that the types of things he said to her has at times made sexual assault victims feel as if she deserved it.  It was far more than him just being focused on the wrong thing.  It was ignorant and very harmful. 

[Jane_Doe]

(Hippo.  Bluntness: I am also a rape victim and I am going to be VERY blunt in this reply.)

Responding to the sacrament talk: No one deserves to get raped (obviously).  God also doesn't and keep us from every bad thing that can happen to us (this is also obvious).  The third obvious thing is that there are party's which are bad situations and there is a higher probability of something bad happening-- I have no idea if this girl was at one of the those parties are not (either way, nothing minimizes rape).

(I'm going to name the story teller "Bob").  There is a very high probability that Bob had overstepped his bounds in his association with her, and made a judgement totally beyond his call.  There is a very big probability that Bob needed metaphorically punched in the face for his comment.  He undoubtably could use an education in the brutality and lifelong effects of the horrible sin that is rape (this holds true for about anyone on the planet).  

 

There are times where the Spirit warns us of danger, and helps us avoid it-- I have such a story just from December.  But God isn't going to hide us from everything and keep every bad thing from happening.  And some things are HORRIBLY bad.  I have a few of those stories as well.

What the God *ALWAYS* do is heal every wound that we've ever had in this life, if we come to Him.  More than simply healing the old mortal, He gives us His strength and blood-- making us His and so much more than we were ever before. 

 

But then why tell stories about the Spirit help finding keys and not something more important?  Two reasons:

1) We loose our keys a lot more often then we encounter help-me-avoid-rape situations.  (Thankfully!)

2) People feel more comfortable with small talk (like loosing keys) than hearing about very personal brutal stories (like rape).  I am very open about my story (everything is healed), and there are many times when hearing that story makes the listener highly uncomfortable.  It's not something that they are used to hearing about and they don't know how to approach it. 

 

When I was going through my hard time, I had SO much horrible junk on my plate.  I tried to take refuge at church, but again a lot of people are not the best at handling super rough situations ( "not the best" = they suck at it royally!).  I hated the people around me, because I felt like they were all fake and I was the only one experiencing anything real.  I could see their struggles- like I once had a conversation with a girl whom obviously just had a horrible break up with her fiancé, but she didn't want to talk about anything other than food.  It drove me bonkers at the time!  

Now, having finished healing... I see many many wounds on other church members.  Many of them don't want to talk about it-- they don't know how the words to say, or fear that others won't know how to listen/relate, or even have been hurt by a bad listener (such as Bob).  Admittedly I don't often talk in church at all because anytime I talk spiritual stuff I turn into an incomprehensible water fountain.   Anyway, I've learned that just because people don't often openly talk about these stories doesn't mean they don't exist.  While I am considered an odd duck in my ward, I try my best to keep the door open, to keep the awareness there, and encourage everyone to talk who wants to and sometimes just be there for people who just need a shoulder to cry on.  

[bluebell]

3 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I really don't think he'd say anything near she deserved it.  But we can't deny that the types of things he said to her has at times made sexual assault victims feel as if she deserved it.  It was far more than him just being focused on the wrong thing.  It was ignorant and very harmful. 

It was definitely not a good thing to say.  Very insensitive, especially since it doesn't sound like he knows her.  These kinds of things can cause so much heartache that doesn't need to exist. 

But that doesn't mean it wasn't the result of him focusing on the wrong things.  Even good intentions can be ignorant and cause harm.  

[Calm]

Stem, It is unfortunate you did not feel confident enough to point out what you said above rather than the comment about murderers.  You might look for more teachimg moments, but you need to be showing compassion and love to those you teach rather than judgment at the same time you are urging them to have compassion and love.

Edited February 13, 2017 by Calm

[stemelbow]

28 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

The work I speak of for you, not for others.  The path back to God's presence walks directly through the temple and in no other route.

As for the rest of the people on earth, 1000 years of non-stop temple ordinances should cover any who will accept.  But there is no other path.  We may roam in the wilderness completing other works for 40 years (or 80 or however long) but eventually the promised land requires walking through the temple.  No amount of Church service, charitable giving, leadership position, nor anything else can take its place.

God may allow people to roam and complete other works.  He may even sometimes direct them to do so.
But their is only one door back into his presence.
 

1 session of temple work could theoretically cover everyone who has ever lived.  Since we don't have the means to recover any record of names or semblance of names for most of humanity past, unless something magical happens, we'll never be able to cover an ordinance for everyone--be in 1,000 years or 1,000,000.  We might as well do one grand ordinance session to cover each human that ever existed, say it's by proxy for all, and leave genealogical research for those who love it.  As of now, we're duplicating so much, tossing in names of those who might not have really been named whatever we toss in, and stuff, we might as well not use names but numbers...all the way up until we reach somewhere around 100,000,000,000.  God can keep track of which number is which human that lived.  Plus, if we did that, we'd actually be getting somewhere. 

But I actually love the solemn work of people digging into history and searching to find a person who lived, so I don't think it's time wasted, necessarily.  I'm just saying temple work, as currently constituted, will not get us where we want to go. 

[bluebell]

7 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

(Hippo.  Bluntness: I am also a rape victim and I am going to be VERY blunt in this reply.)

Responding to the sacrament talk: No one deserves to get raped (obviously).  God also doesn't and keep us from every bad thing that can happen to us (this is also obvious).  The third obvious thing is that there are party's which are bad situations and there is a higher probability of something bad happening-- I have no idea if this girl was at one of the those parties are not (either way, nothing minimizes rape).

(I'm going to name the story teller "Bob").  There is a very high probability that Bob had overstepped his bounds in his association with her, and made a judgement totally beyond his call.  There is a very big probability that Bob needed metaphorically punched in the face for his comment.  He undoubtably could use an education in the brutality and lifelong effects of the horrible sin that is rape (this holds true for about anyone on the planet).  

 

There are times where the Spirit warns us of danger, and helps us avoid it-- I have such a story just from December.  But God isn't going to hide us from everything and keep every bad thing from happening.  And some things are HORRIBLY bad.  I have a few of those stories as well.

What the God *ALWAYS* do is heal every wound that we've ever had in this life, if we come to Him.  More than simply healing the old mortal, He gives us His strength and blood-- making us His and so much more than we were ever before. 

 

But then why tell stories about the Spirit help finding keys and not something more important?  Two reasons:

1) We loose our keys a lot more often then we encounter help-me-avoid-rape situations.  (Thankfully!)

2) People feel more comfortable with small talk (like loosing keys) than hearing about very personal brutal stories (like rape).  I am very open about my story (everything is healed), and there are many times when hearing that story makes the listener highly uncomfortable.  It's not something that they are used to hearing about and they don't know how to approach it. 

 

When I was going through my hard time, I had SO much horrible junk on my plate.  I tried to take refuge at church, but again a lot of people are not the best at handling super rough situations ( "not the best" = they suck at it royally!).  I hated the people around me, because I felt like they were all fake and I was the only one experiencing anything real.  I could see their struggles- like I once had a conversation with a girl whom obviously just had a horrible break up with her fiancé, but she didn't want to talk about anything other than food.  It drove me bonkers at the time!  

Now, having finished healing... I see many many wounds on other church members.  Many of them don't want to talk about it-- they don't know how the words to say, or fear that others won't know how to listen/relate, or even have been hurt by a bad listener (such as Bob).  Admittedly I don't often talk in church at all because anytime I talk spiritual stuff I turn into an incomprehensible water fountain.   Anyway, I've learned that just because people don't often openly talk about these stories doesn't mean they don't exist.  While I am considered an odd duck in my ward, I try my best to keep the door open, to keep the awareness there, and encourage everyone to talk who wants to and sometimes just be there for people who just need a shoulder to cry on.  

Awesome insights.

[bluebell]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

It is unfortunate you did not feel confident enough to point out what you said above rather than the comment about murderers.  You might look for more teachimg moments, but you need to be showing compassion and love to those you teach rather than judgment at the same time you are urging them to have compassion and love.

Hey cal, can you add who you are responding to?  Is it the OP or some other post?

[stemelbow]

6 minutes ago, bluebell said:

It was definitely not a good thing to say.  Very insensitive, especially since it doesn't sound like he knows her.  These kinds of things can cause so much heartache that doesn't need to exist. 

But that doesn't mean it wasn't the result of him focusing on the wrong things.  Even good intentions can be ignorant and cause harm.  

I didn't say it was not a result of him focusing on the wrong things.

[Jeanne]

7 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

(Hippo.  Bluntness: I am also a rape victim and I am going to be VERY blunt in this reply.)

Responding to the sacrament talk: No one deserves to get raped (obviously).  God also doesn't and keep us from every bad thing that can happen to us (this is also obvious).  The third obvious thing is that there are party's which are bad situations and there is a higher probability of something bad happening-- I have no idea if this girl was at one of the those parties are not (either way, nothing minimizes rape).

(I'm going to name the story teller "Bob").  There is a very high probability that Bob had overstepped his bounds in his association with her, and made a judgement totally beyond his call.  There is a very big probability that Bob needed metaphorically punched in the face for his comment.  He undoubtably could use an education in the brutality and lifelong effects of the horrible sin that is rape (this holds true for about anyone on the planet).  

 

There are times where the Spirit warns us of danger, and helps us avoid it-- I have such a story just from December.  But God isn't going to hide us from everything and keep every bad thing from happening.  And some things are HORRIBLY bad.  I have a few of those stories as well.

What the God *ALWAYS* do is heal every wound that we've ever had in this life, if we come to Him.  More than simply healing the old mortal, He gives us His strength and blood-- making us His and so much more than we were ever before. 

 

But then why tell stories about the Spirit help finding keys and not something more important?  Two reasons:

1) We loose our keys a lot more often then we encounter help-me-avoid-rape situations.  (Thankfully!)

2) People feel more comfortable with small talk (like loosing keys) than hearing about very personal brutal stories (like rape).  I am very open about my story (everything is healed), and there are many times when hearing that story makes the listener highly uncomfortable.  It's not something that they are used to hearing about and they don't know how to approach it. 

 

When I was going through my hard time, I had SO much horrible junk on my plate.  I tried to take refuge at church, but again a lot of people are not the best at handling super rough situations ( "not the best" = they suck at it royally!).  I hated the people around me, because I felt like they were all fake and I was the only one experiencing anything real.  I could see their struggles- like I once had a conversation with a girl whom obviously just had a horrible break up with her fiancé, but she didn't want to talk about anything other than food.  It drove me bonkers at the time!  

Now, having finished healing... I see many many wounds on other church members.  Many of them don't want to talk about it-- they don't know how the words to say, or fear that others won't know how to listen/relate, or even have been hurt by a bad listener (such as Bob).  Admittedly I don't often talk in church at all because anytime I talk spiritual stuff I turn into an incomprehensible water fountain.   Anyway, I've learned that just because people don't often openly talk about these stories doesn't mean they don't exist.  While I am considered an odd duck in my ward, I try my best to keep the door open, to keep the awareness there, and encourage everyone to talk who wants to and sometimes just be there for people who just need a shoulder to cry on.  

I am sorry that you had to go through this.  It sounds like you learned so much about yourself and others in your trials that your attitude is to be envied.  Best to you. 

[stemelbow]

7 minutes ago, Calm said:

It is unfortunate you did not feel confident enough to point out what you said above rather than the comment about murderers.  You might look for more teachimg moments, but you need to be showing compassion and love to those you teach rather than judgment at the same time you are urging them to have compassion and love.

In what way did my comment about murderers express judgment on anyone?  It was meant to provoke our thoughts on what it means to be inspired by the Spirit.  If having an epiphany of where to find our lost keys fits in to the Spirit's work, then it's likely the Spirit works on the most base of us humans, perhaps in aiding awful atrocities.  Or maybe it's not the SPirit at all that has helped us find out keys.  we are just not sure how else to assign such coincidences and realizations. 

I'm fine enough if people want to say the Spirit inspired them to find their keys.  I just want a chance to ask and talk about if it's possible it wasn't the spirit and what that might mean. 

[Calm]

12 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Hey cal, can you add who you are responding to?  Is it the OP or some other post?

Sorry, added a name.  Been forgetting lately to quote when it appears to be the last statement in the thread.

[stemelbow]

15 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

(Hippo.  Bluntness: I am also a rape victim and I am going to be VERY blunt in this reply.)

Responding to the sacrament talk: No one deserves to get raped (obviously).  God also doesn't and keep us from every bad thing that can happen to us (this is also obvious).  The third obvious thing is that there are party's which are bad situations and there is a higher probability of something bad happening-- I have no idea if this girl was at one of the those parties are not (either way, nothing minimizes rape).

(I'm going to name the story teller "Bob").  There is a very high probability that Bob had overstepped his bounds in his association with her, and made a judgement totally beyond his call.  There is a very big probability that Bob needed metaphorically punched in the face for his comment.  He undoubtably could use an education in the brutality and lifelong effects of the horrible sin that is rape (this holds true for about anyone on the planet).  

 

There are times where the Spirit warns us of danger, and helps us avoid it-- I have such a story just from December.  But God isn't going to hide us from everything and keep every bad thing from happening.  And some things are HORRIBLY bad.  I have a few of those stories as well.

What the God *ALWAYS* do is heal every wound that we've ever had in this life, if we come to Him.  More than simply healing the old mortal, He gives us His strength and blood-- making us His and so much more than we were ever before. 

 

But then why tell stories about the Spirit help finding keys and not something more important?  Two reasons:

1) We loose our keys a lot more often then we encounter help-me-avoid-rape situations.  (Thankfully!)

2) People feel more comfortable with small talk (like loosing keys) than hearing about very personal brutal stories (like rape).  I am very open about my story (everything is healed), and there are many times when hearing that story makes the listener highly uncomfortable.  It's not something that they are used to hearing about and they don't know how to approach it. 

 

When I was going through my hard time, I had SO much horrible junk on my plate.  I tried to take refuge at church, but again a lot of people are not the best at handling super rough situations ( "not the best" = they suck at it royally!).  I hated the people around me, because I felt like they were all fake and I was the only one experiencing anything real.  I could see their struggles- like I once had a conversation with a girl whom obviously just had a horrible break up with her fiancé, but she didn't want to talk about anything other than food.  It drove me bonkers at the time!  

Now, having finished healing... I see many many wounds on other church members.  Many of them don't want to talk about it-- they don't know how the words to say, or fear that others won't know how to listen/relate, or even have been hurt by a bad listener (such as Bob).  Admittedly I don't often talk in church at all because anytime I talk spiritual stuff I turn into an incomprehensible water fountain.   Anyway, I've learned that just because people don't often openly talk about these stories doesn't mean they don't exist.  While I am considered an odd duck in my ward, I try my best to keep the door open, to keep the awareness there, and encourage everyone to talk who wants to and sometimes just be there for people who just need a shoulder to cry on.  

Thanks for the reply.  I am a rape victim too--I've felt a bit of courage to say that here thanks to you.  But mine happened when I was 11 by an older and much larger boy (I think he was 15 or 16).  I didn't speak a word of it until I was grown up though, and I've rarely mentioned it to anyone since.  But if I remained the vulnerable person I was when I was 11, I'm sure it'd be much more of an issue for me. 

[bluebell]

14 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I didn't say it was not a result of him focusing on the wrong things.

I was responding to this statement which made it seem like the fact that it was ignorant and very harmful proved that it was more than his focus that caused the problem-

"It was far more than him just being focused on the wrong thing.  It was ignorant and very harmful." 

I was trying to point out that even ignorant and harmful things can be caused solely by good intentions gone wrong.  I'm sorry if i misunderstood you.