Nepotism in the Church/Henry J. Eyring new president of BYUI

[Kenngo1969]

2 minutes ago, cacheman said:

Did someone allege that he name-dropped and/or pulled strings to get the job?  I imagine that at least once he decided to accept the nomination and throw his hat in the ring, that he put his best foot forward from that point on. 

I haven't read the thread in awhile, but I think that was the allegation of at least one other poster (Sunstoned?).

[clarkgoble]

5 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

When you say, "I do think Utah needs another university in this area beyond BYU which is why I think UVU was first formed," are you talking about UVU's transition to university status, or are you talking about its inception?  If you're talking about the former, perhaps you have a point, but the mission of UVU at its inception (although, of course, it wasn't called that then) was technical and vocational education.  

I was speaking of converting it to a full university back in the 90's. Since that time there's be extreme growth at the university with a ridiculous number of new buildings. I just can't imagine most of these new students and buildings are focused on vocational training. As I think I mentioned it's now larger than BYU.

Quote

 it seems I'm destined forever to remain in a rut of being obscenely overeducated and/or being obscenely underemployed.

This seems a problem with universities in general. Many businesses look at college degrees as a kind of evidence that one can pass basic responsibility. Thus the shift to privileging college degrees even for jobs that don't really need it. Since employers can't typically look most other characteristics they use college as a gauge of being able to complete assignments, show up consistently, etc. That said though most college degrees aren't exactly in demand. Even STEM degrees often aren't too terribly useful for those fields because there's overproduction relative to the number of jobs requiring STEM. However most people don't get jobs in their majors. (I certainly didn't) The problem then becomes what kind of jobs one is qualified for and when the college degree hurts or helps there. The reality is a degree is just a small part of what one needs - internships often are at least as important if not moreso as are experience and skills not necessarily tied to ones college classes.

The sad reality is far too many students go to college without being aware of these things. I certainly was clueless in college and didn't really start realizing what was going on until my senior year. Were I to do it again I'd do things quite differently. Many majors really don't help much at all in terms of careers. 

All that said though, the same is true of vocation degrees. For instance getting a degree so you could be a firefighter isn't that useful because the number of jobs open is vastly outnumbered by the number of people wanting jobs. At a minimum you need experience which typically means a few years of low pay doing forestry fire fighting or small community fire departments. It's similar in many other vocation programs.

Edited March 27, 2017 by clarkgoble

[cacheman]

6 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I haven't read the thread in awhile, but I think that was the allegation of at least one other poster (Sunstoned?).

I don't believe he made that allegation.  He claimed that he was hired because of his name and who his father is.  Of course, none of us actually know if that's the case or not.

-cacheman

[Kenngo1969]

1 minute ago, clarkgoble said:

I was speaking of converting it to a full university back in the 90's. 

Fair enough.  As I see it (and this is simply my rough-and-ready take on things.  I haven't done exhaustive research and will be unlikely to have hard numbers or anything else to back this up), while I'm not saying that a liberal arts education won't provide anyone with useful, marketable skills, I think, generally, it's far better for someone to graduate prepared to go out into the real world with the kind of hard skills UVU provides than it would be for UVU to graduate another few thousand liberal arts graduates every year, who then have to compete for the same jobs with the thousands of liberal arts graduates who graduated the year before that, and so on.

Gotta go!  There are phones to answer!

I'll check back later.  (I'll get fired if I get caught with a portable device on the production floor at my job, so, you'll simply have to wait, on the edge of your seat, all aquiver, with 'bated breath, for my next reply, which I know you will all be doing! ) 

[Kenngo1969]

2 minutes ago, cacheman said:

I don't believe he made that allegation.  He claimed that he was hired because of his name and who his father is.  Of course, none of us actually know if that's the case or not.

-cacheman

I suppose we're simply talking semantics at this point, but I don't see any practical difference between the two.  Gotta go!  Phones to answer!

[clarkgoble]

10 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Fair enough.  As I see it (and this is simply my rough-and-ready take on things.  I haven't done exhaustive research and will be unlikely to have hard numbers or anything else to back this up), while I'm not saying that a liberal arts education won't provide anyone with useful, marketable skills, I think, generally, it's far better for someone to graduate prepared to go out into the real world with the kind of hard skills UVU provides than it would be for UVU to graduate another few thousand liberal arts graduates every year, who then have to compete for the same jobs with the thousands of liberal arts graduates who graduated the year before that, and so on.

Fully agree. I tend to find people go into liberal arts not aware of the problems. That said an English degree can be valuable if you're in a job tied to writing. But as you note you're competing with a lot of people with the same degree. At a minimum you need to have other skills to put you above the pack. Internships in particular are extremely important but often don't get the attention they need.

[Ahab]

On 2/7/2017 at 3:20 PM, bsjkki said:

When reading this announcement that Henry J. Eyring is the newly announced president of BYU-I, I noticed in my facebook stream, there were concerns about nepotism in church leadership. Is this a valid concern? From the article, it seems clear he is qualified for the position. Do you think the family name hurts or helps people when seeking employment in the church? http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865672792/Henry-J-Eyring-announced-as-new-president-of-BYU-Idaho.html?pg=all

Depends on the name, I suppose.

I think it would be neat if all of the presidents of BYU schools were descendents of Brigham Young, as long as they could do the job well in the proper tradition..

If no descendent of Brigham Young could be found, though, or if none could do the job properly, then any descendent of any well known member would be my second choice.  If not an Eyring then maybe a Packer, or a Maxwell, or a Hinckley, or a Benson, or a Smith, etc.

[Calm]

4 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

Not necessarily a good thing, although I know some appreciate it. However I think there's so many people trying to go to college in Utah that many people want something like BYU or UoU but down near the Provo scene. 

That said UVU had a lot of trade training that is quite important such as paramedic, fire, and so forth. I'm not sure one couldn't amp up the more academic fields while still maintaining high quality trade education.

I think they are actually doing both.  The switch to University required getting more research Ph.Ds on the faculty, my husband was one of them.  They are slowly adding some graduate programs in my understanding, he seems to always be talking about one or another in the works.  They are also trying to maintain their relationship with the nontraditional student and provide better options for them.  I love the varied approach.

It is my favorite place of employment for him yet, quite grateful he ended up here rather than BYU.

[clarkgoble]

21 minutes ago, Calm said:

I think they are actually doing both.  The switch to University required getting more research Ph.Ds on the faculty, my husband was one of them.  They are slowly adding some graduate programs in my understanding, he seems to always be talking about one or another in the works.  They are also trying to maintain their relationship with the nontraditional student and provide better options for them.  I love the varied approach.

It is my favorite place of employment for him yet, quite grateful he ended up here rather than BYU.

I think that ultimately Utah county needs more real graduate programs and that's the ultimate issue. Outside of a few fields BYU just isn't a good place to go to grad school. Further the administration clearly doesn't want a robust grad school system at BYU outside of accounting, law and MBAs. That tends to leave UoU as the only real choice, given the limits of most of the other universities in Utah. It'd be nice to have one other school that has a robust graduate program especially in more technical fields.

Edited March 27, 2017 by clarkgoble

[Calm]

"As I think I mentioned it's now larger than BYU."

A few years ago, there were more students leaving BYU to go to UVU than the reverse as it had been.

My husband has worked to get various practical classes/ topics  included in the usual academic ones so as to make the academic degrees more useful in the real world.  One example is providing an class in entrepreneurship throughout the university in order to help students who are prone to being self starters learn how best to go about it to lead to greater success with their projects plus open up students who don't see themselves that way to exploring the possibility that may be something they would like to do.  When it is difficult to get a job in your career path or even a decent job at all, rather than hoping something opens up eventually or settling for something less desirable, moving into starting your own business can be a wise decision (if it is done in a practical way and not pie in the sky ).  It is also a great way for young adults to get funds to back them up while looking for a more traditional career path (he has had a few students turn their lawn care or other summer job into a multimillion dollar business) or for a mother who wants to make contribute financially to the family do so.

UVU has a very useful niche with their trade background.  Meshing it with the more traditional academic rather than shunting it aside as lesser value, something that can be provided by a trade school, seems to me to be the best path it could follow to fulfill the needs of its students.

[Calm]

19 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

I think that ultimately Utah county needs more real graduate programs and that's the ultimate issue. Outside of a few fields BYU just isn't a good place to go to grad school. Further the administration clearly doesn't want a robust grad school system at BYU outside of accounting, law and MBAs. That tends to me UoU is the only real choice, given the limits of most of the other universities in Utah. It'd be nice to have one other school that has a robust graduate program especially in more technical fields.

From what I have heard...limited of course...the long term plan is definitely open to that, but there is a responsibility felt to the nontraditional students that they have been serving all these years with high quality programs.  They want to expand while bringing along those with more immediate practical needs.  Keep what they do best while expanding what they can do and making sure it is high quality.  At least some of the admin and profs see inserting practical flavors into the more academic coursework can yield a more financially capable graduate.   There has been resistance to blending the two (not as in a total blending, but rather providing enough opportunity so that students understand their options better, know how to take advantage of possibilities), but hopefully the good guys  will win in the end.

-----

I agree with the appraisal of BYU.  They have, for example, some fantastic scientists there (that have made them a ton of money with their research), but there isn't a lot of support for them expanding their work imo (I may be totally off on this hearing it secondhand and adding my own read between the lines).  As the Church's university, it is a huge draw to a lot of high quality profs, but they are not providing them with as much opportunity to create a new generation of specialists as they could.

Edited March 27, 2017 by Calm

[clarkgoble]

7 minutes ago, Calm said:

"As I think I mentioned it's now larger than BYU."

A few years ago, there were more students leaving BYU to go to UVU than the reverse as it had been.

Yes, I think it was 2015 when UVU surpassed BYU in size. Part of that was of course BYU more or less capping it's numbers. I actually think there are now fewer BYU students than when I was there. My vague memory was that it was around 36,000 back in the 90's but only 33,000 (thereabouts) now. UVU's enrollment for fall was 34,978 in 2016.

Quote

My husband has worked to get various practical classes/ topics  included in the usual academic ones so as to make the academic degrees more useful in the real world.

Yes, I'm not advocating they drop it. I also think universities in general should be more practical with many of their degrees as well. Frankly few universities really like to think of themselves in terms of providing practical skills and education. The classic self-conception still rules the roost however mythological it may be.

I just do think that Utah needs more than one school like UoU. UVU seems a reasonable pick IMO.

[Calm]

19 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

Yes, I think it was 2015 when UVU surpassed BYU in size. Part of that was of course BYU more or less capping it's numbers. I actually think there are now fewer BYU students than when I was there. My vague memory was that it was around 36,000 back in the 90's but only 33,000 (thereabouts) now. UVU's enrollment for fall was 34,978 in 2016.

Yes, I'm not advocating they drop it. I also think universities in general should be more practical with many of their degrees as well. Frankly few universities really like to think of themselves in terms of providing practical skills and education. The classic self-conception still rules the roost however mythological it may be.

I just do think that Utah needs more than one school like UoU. UVU seems a reasonable pick IMO.

We are all gung-ho about that happening here in this home.  Feel free to tell the state to funnel more education dollars to us.

[Rain]

1 hour ago, clarkgoble said:

I think that ultimately Utah county needs more real graduate programs and that's the ultimate issue. Outside of a few fields BYU just isn't a good place to go to grad school. Further the administration clearly doesn't want a robust grad school system at BYU outside of accounting, law and MBAs. That tends to leave UoU as the only real choice, given the limits of most of the other universities in Utah. It'd be nice to have one other school that has a robust graduate program especially in more technical fields.

Utah State?

Now it has been 23 years since I graduated from there with my BA,  but it seemed like it had some good graduate programs at the time.

[Calm]

I think Clark is looking for easily accessible to Utah County., Logan may be a 3 hour trip for many if they chose to live at home.

[cinepro]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

I think they are actually doing both.  The switch to University required getting more research Ph.Ds on the faculty, my husband was one of them.  They are slowly adding some graduate programs in my understanding, he seems to always be talking about one or another in the works.  They are also trying to maintain their relationship with the nontraditional student and provide better options for them.  I love the varied approach.

It is my favorite place of employment for him yet, quite grateful he ended up here rather than BYU.

FWIW, my son and another boy from our ward go to UVU, and I've been very impressed with the school in general and with Holland specifically (from the little I've seen or heard about him).  My daughter starts there in the summer.

[clarkgoble]

2 hours ago, Rain said:

Utah State?

Now it has been 23 years since I graduated from there with my BA,  but it seemed like it had some good graduate programs at the time.

My understanding - correct me if I'm wrong - is that they've only focused on having strong graduate programs in a few degrees mostly related to the historic focus of the university.

I suppose Utah could focus on expanding graduate programs at Utah State. The benefit to doing so at UVU is that it's in a large population center. I'd be fine with either. Main benefit to UVU is it'd make it easier for BYU students to go to grad school when spouses haven't graduated. Not that that is a huge concern for the legislature though. It also depends upon UVU really doing a push like UoU. But I suspect the legislature which has been rather unfortunate with its funding of education would prefer to only have one solid state school: UoU.

Edited March 28, 2017 by clarkgoble

[Rain]

40 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

My understanding - correct me if I'm wrong - is that they've only focused on having strong graduate programs in a few degrees mostly related to the historic focus of the university.

I suppose Utah could focus on expanding graduate programs at Utah State. The benefit to doing so at UVU is that it's in a large population center. I'd be fine with either. Main benefit to UVU is it'd make it easier for BYU students to go to grad school when spouses haven't graduated. Not that that is a huge concern for the legislature though. It also depends upon UVU really doing a push like UoU. But I suspect the legislature which has been rather unfortunate with its funding of education would prefer to only have one solid state school: UoU.

I'm not sure what a few degrees to you means. Here is a list of 155 degrees or certificates. Many are very definitely in line with the historic focus. Others, not so much.

Accounting (MAcc)

Administrative Supervisory Licensure (Licensure)

Administrative/Supervisory Concentration (Cert)

Aerospace Engineering (PhD, MS)

Agricultural Extension and Education (MS)

Alternative Teacher Preparation Licensure(Licensure)

American Studies (MA, MS)

Animal, Dairy, and Veterinary Sciences (MS, PhD)

Anthropology (MS)

Applied Economics (MS, MAE)

Applied Environmental Geoscience (MS)

Art (MFA)

Audiology (AuD)

Biochemistry (MS, PhD)

Biological Engineering (MS, PhD)

Biology (MS, PhD)

Business Administration (MBA)

Career and Technical Education (MEd)

Chemistry (MS, PhD)

Civil and Environmental Engineering (MS, ME, PhD)

Climate Science (MS, PhD)

Communicative Disorders and Deaf Education(MS, MA, MEd)

Computer Engineering (MS)

Computer Science (MCS, MS, PhD)

Curriculum and Instruction (EdS)

Deaf Education - Listening and Spoken Language Endorsement (Endorsement)

Dietetic Internship (Cert)

Dietetics Administration (MDA)

Disability Disciplines (PhD)

Dual Language Immersion Endorsement(Endorsement)

Early Childhood Endorsement (Endorsement)

Ecology (MS, PhD)

Economics (MS, MA)

Economics (Applied Economics Department)(PhD)

Economics and Statistics (MS)

Education (PhD, EdD)

Electrical Engineering (PhD, MS)

Elementary Education (MS, MA, MEd)

Elementary Mathematics Endorsement(Endorsement)

Engineering (ME)

Engineering Education (PhD)

English (MS, MA)

English as a Second Language Endorsement(Endorsement)

Environment and Society (MS, PhD)

Executive Master of Accounting (EMAcc)

Family and Consumer Science Education and Extension (MS)

Family and Human Development (MFHD, PhD)

Family, Consumer, and Human Development (MS)

Financial Economics (MS)

Fisheries Biology (MS, PhD)

Fitness Promotion (MFP)

Food and Agribusiness (International MBA) (MBA)

Food Safety and Quality (MFSQ)

Forestry (MS, PhD)

Geography (MS)

Geology (MS, PhD)

Gifted and Talented Endorsement (Endorsement)

Health and Human Movement (MS)

Health Promotion (MHP)

History (MA, MS)

Horticulture (MPSH)

Human Resources (MHR)

Industrial Mathematics (MS)

Instructional Leadership (MEd)

Instructional Technology (EdS, MEd)

Instructional Technology and Learning Sciences(MS, PhD)

International Food and Agribusiness (MS)

Irrigation Engineering (MS, PhD)

Landscape Architecture (MLA)

Landscape Architecture (Advanced Professional Degree) (MLA)

Management Information Systems (MMIS)

Marriage and Family Therapy (MMFT)

Mathematical Sciences (PhD)

Mathematics (MS, MMath)

Mechanical Engineering (MS, PhD)

Music (MM)

National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA) (Cert)

Natural Resources (MNR)

Natural Resources and Environmental Education (NREE) (Cert)

Neuroscience (PhD)

Nutrition and Food Sciences (MS, PhD)

Physical and Sport Education (MEd)

Physics (MS, PhD)

Plant Science (MS, PhD)

Political Science (MS, MA)

Psychology (EdS, PhD, MEd)

Range Science (MS, PhD)

Reading Endorsement (Endorsement)

Recreation Resource Management (MS)

Rehabilitation Counseling (MRC)

Rehabilitation Counseling Certificate (Cert)

Second Language Teaching (MSLT)

Secondary Education (MEd)

Secondary Education- Alternative Route to Licensure (ARL) (Licensure)

Social Work (MSW)

Sociology (MS, PhD)

Soil Science (MS, PhD)

Special Education (MS, MEd, EdS)

Statistics (MS)

Technical Communication (MTC)

Technology and Engineering Education (MS)

Theatre Arts (MFA)

Theory and Practice of Professional Communication (PhD)

Toxicology (MS, PhD)

Veterinary Medicine (DVM)

Watershed Science (MS, PhD)

Wildlife Biology (MS, PhD)

Women and Gender Studies (Cert)

[clarkgoble]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

I'm not sure what a few degrees to you means. Here is a list of 155 degrees or certificates. Many are very definitely in line with the historic focus. Others, not so much.

I stand corrected. I didn't know they offered all those.

[Kenngo1969]

18 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

I think that ultimately Utah county needs more real graduate programs and that's the ultimate issue. Outside of a few fields BYU just isn't a good place to go to grad school. Further the administration clearly doesn't want a robust grad school system at BYU outside of accounting, law and MBAs. That tends to leave UoU as the only real choice, given the limits of most of the other universities in Utah. It'd be nice to have one other school that has a robust graduate program especially in more technical fields.

I'm curious: What programs would you like to see UVU offer, including graduate programs?

P.S.: I asked that before I read Rain's reply to you.  Are there any other programs you think UVU should offer?

P.P.S.: When you say "Utah needs more than one school like the UofU," what, exactly, do you mean? Now that you apparently have been enlightened about the number of programs UVU offers, does that fit the bill, or are there other ways you wish UVU were like the U?

Edited March 28, 2017 by Kenngo1969

[Bernard Gui]

On 2/10/2017 at 9:40 AM, rongo said:

I think he has a better future as a General Authority. Ever since he started going by "first initial, middle name." 

N. Golden Pond . . .    

Yeah. Back when I was financial secretary in my mission, I used to sign my reports Elder M. Heber Gui, hoping to catch someone's attention in SLC so that I could get a promotion when I got home. Didn't work.

Edited April 2, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Kenngo1969]

19 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Yeah. Back when I was financial secretary in my mission, I used to sign my reports Elder M. Heber Gui, hoping to catch someone's attention in SLC so that I could get a promotion when I got home. Didn't work.

I laughed outloud when I read that, for two reasons: (1) It doesn't quite "fit" the "Cyber-you" I've had the pleasure of coming to know; and (2) Who in his right mind would want to "catch [the] attention" of anyone in SLC?!   Am I prepared to say that "campaigning" never happens in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?  No; no, I won't go that far.  But I do believe that it is very, very rare. I have to believe that God can see right through that sort of thing, and, if-and-when a "campaigner" gets what he's campaigning for, unlike most callings, it redounds to the campaigner's eternal detriment   (One man's humble opinion ...)

Edited April 2, 2017 by Kenngo1969

[Bernard Gui]

14 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I laughed outloud when I read that, for two reasons: (1) It doesn't quite "fit" the "Cyber-you" I've had the pleasure of coming to know; and (2) Who in his right mind would want to "catch [the] attention" of anyone in SLC?!   Am I prepared to say that "campaigning" never happens in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?  No; no, I won't go that far.  But I do believe that it is very, very rare. I have to believe that God can see right through that sort of thing, and, if-and-when a "campaigner" gets what he's campaigning for, unlike most callings, it redounds to the campaigner's eternal detriment   (One man's humble opinion ...)

It was all meant in jest. For the first 20 years of my life I was embarrassed to death of my middle name Heber, named after my grandfather who was named after Heber C. Kimball. For some reason my peabrain thought it wasn't cool and I was mortally afraid my friends would find out the name. Then on my mission something clicked (my uncle Warren would have said that I had progressed a few feet up on my climb of Fool's Hill), and I embraced the heritage and changed my attitude about the name. Some of the names at the time...N. Eldon Tanner, S. Dilworth Young, etc., gave me the idea to start going by M. Heber Gui at least on my correspondence with SLC, not intending to campaign for any position. There's no way I would ever appear on anyone's radar or make a list for such callings. 

[Kenngo1969]

My first name is of Celtic origin, and it means, "Handsome."  My mother had me pegged.   When it comes to my middle name, Karl, I'm named after my dad's best friend.  He spells it with a "C," so I was puzzled as to why my mother spelled it with a "K" in my case ... until, nearly 16 years following my birth, the National Basketball Association's Utah Jazz drafted Karl Malone.   (I'm just glad that my last name doesn't begin with "K."  )  

[Teancum]

On 2/7/2017 at 6:20 PM, bsjkki said:

When reading this announcement that Henry J. Eyring is the newly announced president of BYU-I, I noticed in my facebook stream, there were concerns about nepotism in church leadership. Is this a valid concern? From the article, it seems clear he is qualified for the position. Do you think the family name hurts or helps people when seeking employment in the church? http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865672792/Henry-J-Eyring-announced-as-new-president-of-BYU-Idaho.html?pg=all

Nepotism in the LDS church is par for the course.  No surprise here.