Woody Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 There is something in this chapter that has intrigued me ever since I first read it many years ago. ------------------------------------------ Mosiah 5 1. And now, it came to pass that when king Benjamin had thus spoken to his people, he sent among them, desiring to know of his people if they believed the words which he had spoken unto them. 2 And they all cried with one voice, saying: Yea, we believe all the words which thou hast spoken unto us; and also, we know of their surety and truth, because of the Spirit of the Lord Omnipotent, which has wrought a mighty change in us, or in our hearts, that we have no more disposition to do evil, but to do good continually. 3 And we, ourselves, also, through the infinite goodness of God, and the manifestations of his Spirit, have great views of that which is to come; and were it expedient, we could prophesy of all things. 4 And it is the faith which we have had on the things which our king has spoken unto us that has brought us to this great knowledge, whereby we do rejoice with such exceedingly great joy. 5 And we are willing to enter into a covenant with our God to do his will, and to be obedient to his commandments in all things that he shall command us, all the remainder of our days, that we may not bring upon ourselves a never-ending torment, as has been spoken by the angel, that we may not drink out of the cup of the wrath of God. 6 And now, these are the words which king Benjamin desired of them; and therefore he said unto them: Ye have spoken the words that I desired; and the covenant which ye have made is a righteous covenant. 7 And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters. 8 And under this head ye are made free, and there is no other head whereby ye can be made free. There is no other name given whereby salvation cometh; therefore, I would that ye should take upon you the name of Christ, all you that have entered into the covenant with God that ye should be obedient unto the end of your lives. 9 And it shall come to pass that whosoever doeth this shall be found at the right hand of God, for he shall know the name by which he is called; for he shall be called by the name of Christ. 10 And now it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall not take upon him the name of Christ must be called by some other name; therefore, he findeth himself on the left hand of God. 11 And I would that ye should remember also, that this is the name that I said I should give unto you that never should be blotted out, except it be through transgression; therefore, take heed that ye do not transgress, that the name be not blotted out of your hearts. 12 I say unto you, I would that ye should remember to retain the name written always in your hearts, that ye are not found on the left hand of God, but that ye hear and know the voice by which ye shall be called, and also, the name by which he shall call you. 13 For how knoweth a man the master whom he has not served, and who is a stranger unto him, and is far from the thoughts and intents of his heart? 14 And again, doth a man take an *** which belongeth to his neighbor, and keep him? I say unto you, Nay; he will not even suffer that he shall feed among his flocks, but will drive him away, and cast him out. I say unto you, that even so shall it be among you if ye know not the name by which ye are called. 15 Therefore, I would that ye should be steadfast and immovable, always abounding in good works, that Christ, the Lord God Omnipotent, may seal you his, that you may be brought to heaven, that ye may have everlasting salvation and eternal life, through the wisdom, and power, and justice, and mercy of him who created all things, in heaven and in earth, who is God above all. Amen. Link to comment
Duncan Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 What about it? I don't see the question Link to comment
Woody Posted January 16, 2017 Author Share Posted January 16, 2017 How is it possible that this large group of people all spoke this rather long paragraph all in unison? Link to comment
CV75 Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 4 minutes ago, Woody said: How is it possible that this large group of people all spoke this rather long paragraph all in unison? Perhaps when "he sent among them," he included his words and a scripted liturgy for the believers to follow, a common Jewish worship practice. 4 Link to comment
Bobbieaware Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Woody said: How is it possible that this large group of people all spoke this rather long paragraph all in unison? The newly converted throng were unified in their hearts and minds by the Spirit of God (the creation of spiritual unity among the saints being one of the main operations of the Spirit), and the things that were said to have been spoken with "one voice" that day possiblely represent an amalgam of the various exultant expressions heard from those among the multitude on that sacred and unforgettable occasion. Another possibility is it was a miracle produced by the power of God when, as Paul instructed, the Spirit taught each new convert what to say, but in this case they were all given the same words to enable them to speak in unison as a miraculous manifestation of their newborn faith and united testimonies. In other words, it may be a powerful and dramatic manifestation of something closely linked to the gift of tongues, not altogether different from the miraculous manifestation of the gift of tongues experienced by the Lord's apostles on the day of Pentecost. What's more difficult to believe, twelve men eloquently preaching the gospel of Christ in many different languages they don't even know, or having the Spirit teach a large group of believers how to unitedly speak with the tongues of angels in their own native language? I would imagine both miracles would be equally difficult for unbelievers and skeptics to believe. Which one of these two manifestations of the Spirit do you think would be more difficult for the Lord to perform? By the way, there were unbelieving people observing what took place on the day of Pentecost who mocked and scoffed and said what was taking place was some sort of drunken tomfoolery. Edited January 16, 2017 by Bobbieaware 2 Link to comment
cdowis Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 (edited) These are the words of a spokesman for the listeners. It seems as though this whole process was stylized, and governed by specific rules of ritualistic traditions == the king speaks, and his words are published and passed out to everyone, and then the listeners respond by a spokesman, The words of the spokesman are perhaps dictated by a council of leaders. As the spokesman speaks, the audience indicate their approval of his words, or having a copy of the response, will join in unison. There is no mention on how long this process took, but it is obvious that it was a very long time. Edited January 16, 2017 by cdowis 1 Link to comment
Popular Post Robert F. Smith Posted January 16, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted January 16, 2017 7 hours ago, Woody said: How is it possible that this large group of people all spoke this rather long paragraph all in unison? It is standard liturgy and acclamatio: Exodus 24:3, "¶ And Moses came and told the people all the words of the Lord, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the Lord hath said will we do." Many non-LDS faiths have standard antiphonal responses in their liturgy, and they can be read directly from the official prayer book. I Kings 1:39-40, "And Zadok the priest took an horn of oil out of the tabernacle, and anointed Solomon. And they blew the trumpet; and all the people said, God save king Solomon. And all the people came up after him, and the people piped with pipes, and rejoiced with great joy, so that the earth rent with the sound of them." (royal use of acclamation - teru'a) Ezra 3:11, "And they sang together by course in praising and giving thanks unto the Lord; because he is good, for his mercy endureth for ever toward Israel. And all the people shouted with a great shout, when they praised the Lord, because the foundation of the house of the Lord was laid." Nehemiah 10:29, "They clave to their brethren, their nobles, and entered into a curse, and into an oath, to walk in God’s law, which was given by Moses the servant of God, and to observe and do all the commandments of the Lord our Lord, and his judgments and his statutes;" Cf. Deuteronomy 5:23-27, 29:9-14, II Chronicles 15:12, I Esdras 9:47,50 (III Ezra), Ecclesiasticus (Ben Sira) 50:17. This is the acclamatio of the typical Year Rite, but it can be applied to any covenantal reaffirmation. Acts 19:34, " But when they knew that he was a Jew, all with one voice about the space of two hours cried out, Great is Diana of the Ephesians." The presence of this type of formal archaic material in the Book of Mormon is one of the best arguments for its authenticity. 6 Link to comment
Brant Gardner Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 12 hours ago, Woody said: How is it possible that this large group of people all spoke this rather long paragraph all in unison? I wondered the same, and then read a discussion of some of the politics in the early Church (300 AD-ish church). This was actually a pretty standard process. It had a leader who would speak and the group followed--so one person might be a little ahead of the others, but the rest would be together. In this case, the scene is probably set with someone who knows the covenant to be made, and everyone follows. 3 Link to comment
Woody Posted January 16, 2017 Author Share Posted January 16, 2017 Joseph grew up on what was then the American frontier. People spoke with frequent use of habitual phrases and expressions. Being familiar with my grandparents and others, who go back almost to the US Civil War, I think I recognize one of these: "they all cried with one voice, saying..." This expression, in current language, would be 'Here's the kind of things they were saying, they were pretty much all in agreement.' 1 Link to comment
Popular Post Kevin Christensen Posted January 16, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted January 16, 2017 I had an investigator in England complain about that back in 1973. About a year later, a member in Kendall England loaned my Nibley's An Approach to the Book of Mormon, and in chapter 27 I read about "Old World Ritual in the New World." Quote When this speech was finished the people approved it by (30) a great acclamatio, when they “all cried with one voice,” declaring, when the king put the question to them, that they firmly believed what he had told them, and that they “have great views of that which is to come” (Mosiah 5:1—3).24 Then they took a significant step, declaring, “We are willing (31) to enter into a covenant with our God to do his will, and to be obedient to his commandments in all things . . . all the remainder of our days” (Mosiah 5:5). To which the king replied: “Ye have spoken the words that I desired; and the covenant which ye have made is a righteous covenant” (Mosiah 5:6). Then Benjamin gave them (32) a new name, as he promised his son he would: And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; . . . therefore I would that ye should take upon you the name of Christ, all you that have entered into the covenant with God that ye should be obedient unto the end of your lives (Mosiah 5:7—8; italics added). As we noted above, the year-rite everywhere is the ritual begetting of the human race by a divine parent.25 http://publications.mi.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=1107&index=26 Robert Smith is absolutely correct. This is one of the best evidences for the authenticity of the Book of Mormon. Nibley also discussed the issue in Assembly and Atonement: Quote As in Mosiah, there were frequent exchanges between the king and the people, the latter reciting in unison. This explains the odd circumstance in which the people “all cried aloud with one voice” (Mosiah 4:2) and proceeded to recite in unison an ecstatic statement of some fifty words. How could they do it spontaneously “with one voice”? Throughout the world such acclamations were led by a special cheerleader, sometimes called a stasiarch, who stood before the crowd and received notes from important people or shouts from the audience requesting particular cheers. He would recite a sentence to the people and wave a flag to lead them in a uniform chant (compare Deuteronomy 27:14–26). Sometimes the king himself chose to lead the cheering, and some Roman emperors enjoyed it. There was no limit to what could be shouted in unison, and it could go on for hours. http://publications.mi.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=1087&index=7 Nibley's 1957 insights on the ritual context and content have been extended by such things as this from John Welch and Terrance Szink: http://publications.mi.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=1087&index=8 FWIW Kevin Christensen Canonsburg, PA 5 Link to comment
Woody Posted January 17, 2017 Author Share Posted January 17, 2017 It reminds me of Floyd Weston's story of the five roomates who set out to find the true church. They attended an independent church of some kind, where the preacher would make a point then point to the drummer who'd go thru his drums with a fancy drum roll, and Glassy looked at Floyd with a look that said, "This is religion?" Link to comment
Guest Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 I think (for one) it is a paraphrase of a common utterance. Because the Holy Spirit was there to inspire, quite literally one of his primary functions to "bring all things to (a person, or persons) our rememberence (hope I spelled this right). More importantly is verse "7", where he reminds all of us, and all who will come after...that when we believe in the words spoken by King Benjamin, which is confirmed by the Holy Spirit, that "...we become His (Jesus Christ) sons and daughters" We Spiritually born of Him, now He too becomes the Father, laying to rest of much confusion of why Jesus says things like, ...if ye see me, you have seen the Father"...and so many other things' that I am to tired mentally and physically to go on about tonight. But would love to speak tomorrow of the many things found in Mosiah 1-5...incredible doctrines. In fact from 1 Nephi-Mosiah 5, (the 116 pages that was lost) contain so much to learn. But knowing 1 Nephi through the end of Mosiah...one can only wonder what noble beauty of language, (poetic language) that was lost. Even still the words that we have, the incredible words that call us tous "the believer" and to "the non-believer". I know that these words are true, I read all the way to Alma the first night that I received the book, purely by accident, This Holy Book! The Spirit was all around me, attended me, allowing me to feel the same, Holy Spirit" that attended me growing up as I read the Bible, during my lessons while in seminary that a nearby Church offered by mail. I knew it was true, because I too..."had no more the desire to do evil, but to do good continually". The words of King Benjamin, effected me, just as it effected others (or is the word affected) those who could hear, or those whom had it later red the words written, given to others who did not hear the sermon (his last, knowing feather was near. I knew that this, The Book of Mormon had that, the night before while on duty in the Army in then, "West Germany", was and had changed my life, forever...back in Jan 1979. Link to comment
Recommended Posts