Does anybody else consider the Book of Mormon to be fiction?

[Ouagadougou]

Hello all!

I was recently having a discussion with my sister (who is an active member of the church) and we discussed the BoM.  I let her know that I think the BoM contains some inspiring, faith-promoting verses; however, I consider it to be a fiction.  She was visibly upset and said I can't be a faithful member without accepting that it actually took place.  This made me think:

- Can you be an active, faithful member in the church and still believe the BoM is a fictional book?  

- For those who consider the BoM to be fiction, how do you reconcile Moroni and other vital characters/individuals who participated in the restoration narrative? 

I'm generally interested to read your opinions about this subject.  

[Marmonboy]

13 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

 

- For those who consider the BoM to be fiction, how do you reconcile Moroni and other vital characters/individuals who participated in the restoration narrative? 

 

You can't. If there really was a Moroni from the Book of Mormon who appeared to Joseph Smith, then it follows that there really was a book with his history in it that he was able to guide JS to. Or else Moroni lied to JS and told him a complete fable.Unless JS told a lie so fantastic that he was willing to suffer abuse for it, and eventually die defending it.

[Teancum]

6 minutes ago, Marmonboy said:

You can't. If there really was a Moroni from the Book of Mormon who appeared to Joseph Smith, then it follows that there really was a book with his history in it that he was able to guide JS to. Or else Moroni lied to JS and told him a complete fable.Unless JS told a lie so fantastic that he was willing to suffer abuse for it, and eventually die defending it.

Not according to Elder Holland. 

[rodheadlee]

I believe the Book of Mormon to be non fictional.I also believe there is certainly room in the Church for people to believe the BoM to be fiction. The problem with this fictional belief is it is a house built upon sand and when the wind blows and the seas come ashore that house will not stand. Articles like this http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/13/world/americas/fleeing-gangs-central-american-families-surge-toward-us.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news show the truth of the BoM. The Gadianton robbers are overtaking Guatemala, Honduras and El Salvador. 

[Teancum]

7 minutes ago, Marmonboy said:

You can't. If there really was a Moroni from the Book of Mormon who appeared to Joseph Smith, then it follows that there really was a book with his history in it that he was able to guide JS to. Or else Moroni lied to JS and told him a complete fable.Unless JS told a lie so fantastic that he was willing to suffer abuse for it, and eventually die defending it.

And oh by they way JS did not die defending the Book of Mormon.  There were a half dozen or so other reasons that led to his murder but the BoM was not one of them. 

[Guest]

37 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

Hello all!

I was recently having a discussion with my sister (who is an active member of the church) and we discussed the BoM.  I let her know that I think the BoM contains some inspiring, faith-promoting verses; however, I consider it to be a fiction.  She was visibly upset and said I can't be a faithful member without accepting that it actually took place.  This made me think:

- Can you be an active, faithful member in the church and still believe the BoM is a fictional book?  

- For those who consider the BoM to be fiction, how do you reconcile Moroni and other vital characters/individuals who participated in the restoration narrative? 

I'm generally interested to read your opinions about this subject.  

There are some who believe the same of the Bible. Simply put, you will not be able to reman an active member, because you have no firm foundation underneath you. Therefore you, or any who reject the writings found in scripture, reject the Prophets and Apostles who received revelation and wrote the words, which are so easily being dismissed. 

[Ouagadougou]

18 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

I believe the Book of Mormon to be non fictional.I also believe there is certainly room in the Church for people to believe the BoM to be fiction. The problem with this fictional belief is it is a house built upon sand and when the wind blows and the seas come ashore that house will not stand. Articles like this http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/13/world/americas/fleeing-gangs-central-american-families-surge-toward-us.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news show the truth of the BoM. The Gadianton robbers are overtaking Guatemala, Honduras and El Salvador. 

Gang violence in Central America proves the BoM to be a non-fiction book?  

[mapman]

I think that there should be room in the church for people that believe that think the Book of Mormon isn't an ancient book or is fictional. I tend to think that people take that question more seriously than we need to. The most important thing that the Book of Mormon teaches us is the fullness of the Gospel, and Christ describes the Gospel as the firm foundation upon which we build. This is described most clearly in 3 Nephi 11 (see also 2 Nephi 31-32 and 3 Nephi 27), where Christ describes the first principles of the Gospel (faith, repentance, baptism, and the Gift of the Holy Ghost), and describes this as the firm foundation:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them. And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them." (3 Nephi 11:39-40)

The fact that Christ says that we shouldn't add or take away from his Gospel means to me that if you accept and live the Gospel as taught by the Book of the Mormon then you are built on the sure foundation. The historicity of the Book of Mormon might be important, but I don't think it actually has anything to do with salvation. (I believe that the Book of Mormon is a rendition of ancient text, btw, and I don't expect the church to stop teaching that.)

Edited November 13, 2016 by mapman

[rodheadlee]

22 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

Gang violence in Central America proves the BoM to be a non-fiction book?  

 

30 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

Gang violence in Central America proves the BoM to be a non-fiction book?  

Nevermind.

[James Tunney]

I think it's fictional. I also think it would be really hard for one to remain active and hold the view that book of mormon is fictional. Too much of the church foundation depends on historicity. If its fictional then Joseph Smith lied about the plates, moroni, running with the plates to escape the three attackers, changing the hiding place for the plates, the supposed revelations about the plates and the book of mormon, etc, etc. More importantly, if its fictional and Joseph Smith lied about it, where else did he lie?

[Monster]

Given the fact that there is pretty much a total lack of reliable evidence to support a migration from the old world, I think is safe to say it is more likely fictional than history.

[waveslider]

I used to think it was fictional, then I found out otherwise, without any doubt whatsoever. I would never have remained within the church had I not found out that it is indeed true. I can only speak for myself though, so if others can rationalize a way to stay active in the church and think it is fiction, more power to them. I just don't see how they could believe the church is true, when the chief cornerstone of the religion is the BOM, because it is another testament of Christ literally visiting those people and showing them that he indeed is a living savior for all of mankind. If one believes that it is fiction how can one believe that the Church isn't run by a fictional Christ as well?

[Ouagadougou]

8 minutes ago, Monster said:

Given the fact that there is pretty much a total lack of reliable evidence to support a migration from the old world, I think is safe to say it is more likely fictional than history.

It's not just the lack of reliable evidence to support a migration from Jerusalem (Middle East), in my opinion, there is no:

- Archeological evidence to support the BoM narrative (the limited geography theory is something I can't accept, especially with technology today).  

- No DNA evidence to support that Native American groups originated from the Middle East.  (DNA evidence points to areas of Siberia and Asia as their regions of origin).

- No linguistic evidence to support that Native American groups have any language similarities with Middle Eastern languages.    

- Then you add onto all of this all the many mistakes, arachonisms, and other discrepancies in the BoM, and it leads me to the conclusion that it is a fictional book.  

[Glenn101]

21 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

It's not just the lack of reliable evidence to support a migration from Jerusalem (Middle East), in my opinion, there is no:

- Archeological evidence to support the BoM narrative (the limited geography theory is something I can't accept, especially with technology today).  

- No DNA evidence to support that Native American groups originated from the Middle East.  (DNA evidence points to areas of Siberia and Asia as their regions of origin).

- No linguistic evidence to support that Native American groups have any language similarities with Middle Eastern languages.    

- Then you add onto all of this all the many mistakes, arachonisms, and other discrepancies in the BoM, and it leads me to the conclusion that it is a fictional book.  

This puts you and waveslider on opposite sides of the divide. waveslider has had to adjust his beliefs because of a spiritual experience that he has had and feels that he cannot deny. II ma pretty much in the same boat as waveslider.)

Whether or not there is "room in the church" for those who believe the Book of Mormon to be fiction is really up to those individuals. They will not be excommunicated for those beliefs, unless they should cross a line into actively and publicly preaching/teaching those beliefs. I would wonder why such an one would stay though. Doesn't seem rational. I am aware of family problems etc. but I could not remain with an organization I felt was a lie.

By the same token, I have yet to have a critic offer those who believe in the Book of Mormon as a historical text as well as scripture a coherent and cogent and plausible explanation of how the Book of Mormon was produced, providing an explanations for the many things that Book of Mormon scholars have found inside and outside its covers. They can only repeat the same things over and over that you have enumerated, some of which are not factually correct, such as the linguistics, as to reasons they do not believe, but have not dealt with what is actually in the book in any coherent fashion. There are a lot of ad hoc theories on this one thing or another, but none propped up by any credible evidence.

Maybe you could take on the task??? Just browse through the old F.A.R.M.S./Maxwell Institute articles as well as the current Interpreter stuff to see what you have to deal with and have at it.

Until someone can provide me with something rationally plausible, I am really comfortable in my beliefs.

 

Glenn

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, Ouagadougou said:

Hello all!

I was recently having a discussion with my sister (who is an active member of the church) and we discussed the BoM.  I let her know that I think the BoM contains some inspiring, faith-promoting verses; however, I consider it to be a fiction.  She was visibly upset and said I can't be a faithful member without accepting that it actually took place.  This made me think:

- Can you be an active, faithful member in the church and still believe the BoM is a fictional book?  

- For those who consider the BoM to be fiction, how do you reconcile Moroni and other vital characters/individuals who participated in the restoration narrative? 

I'm generally interested to read your opinions about this subject.  

So long as you hold the belief that it is fiction, you must accept the fact that you will be inescapably at odds with the professed doctrine and teachings of the Church. Don't expect the belief that it is fiction to be upheld or respected on the same level as the authoritative doctrine of the Church.

For example (and I've said this before) if I were teaching a Sunday School gospel doctrine class, I would not permit any promulgation of a belief that the Book of Mormon is fiction. As a corollary, I would not remain as a member in a class where such discourse was tolerated. I would consider it to be a waste of my time.

[Marmonboy]

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

And oh by they way JS did not die defending the Book of Mormon.  There were a half dozen or so other reasons that led to his murder but the BoM was not one of them. 

He did, however, die firm in the faith whose restoration hinged on the divinity of the Book of Mormon.

[Five Solas]

10 minutes ago, Marmonboy said:

He did, however, die firm in the faith whose restoration hinged on the divinity of the Book of Mormon.

Pure unsubstantiated speculation, Marmonboy.  Smith's last recorded words suggest he pinned his hope/faith in Freemasonry, "Oh Lord my God" is the start of the Masonic Sign of Distress--which he may or may not have been able to complete (the internet isn't sure).  The author of the Book of Mormon, who rails against "secret combinations," etc.--yeah, probably not so much.   

But if you can demonstrate your POV, by all means, please do.

:0)

--Erik

[Ouagadougou]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

So long as you hold the belief that it is fiction, you must accept the fact that you will be inescapably at odds with the professed doctrine and teachings of the Church. Don't expect the belief that it is fiction to be upheld or respected on the same level as the authoritative doctrine of the Church.

For example (and I've said this before) if I were teaching a Sunday School gospel doctrine class, I would not permit any promulgation of a belief that the Book of Mormon is fiction. As a corollary, I would not remain as a member in a class where such discourse was tolerated. I would consider it to be a waste of my time.

That's why I only attend sacrament most of the time 😀

[Ouagadougou]

1 hour ago, Glenn101 said:

This puts you and waveslider on opposite sides of the divide. waveslider has had to adjust his beliefs because of a spiritual experience that he has had and feels that he cannot deny. II ma pretty much in the same boat as waveslider.)

Whether or not there is "room in the church" for those who believe the Book of Mormon to be fiction is really up to those individuals. They will not be excommunicated for those beliefs, unless they should cross a line into actively and publicly preaching/teaching those beliefs. I would wonder why such an one would stay though. Doesn't seem rational. I am aware of family problems etc. but I could not remain with an organization I felt was a lie.

By the same token, I have yet to have a critic offer those who believe in the Book of Mormon as a historical text as well as scripture a coherent and cogent and plausible explanation of how the Book of Mormon was produced, providing an explanations for the many things that Book of Mormon scholars have found inside and outside its covers. They can only repeat the same things over and over that you have enumerated, some of which are not factually correct, such as the linguistics, as to reasons they do not believe, but have not dealt with what is actually in the book in any coherent fashion. There are a lot of ad hoc theories on this one thing or another, but none propped up by any credible evidence.

Maybe you could take on the task??? Just browse through the old F.A.R.M.S./Maxwell Institute articles as well as the current Interpreter stuff to see what you have to deal with and have at it.

Until someone can provide me with something rationally plausible, I am really comfortable in my beliefs.

 

Glenn

I've read a lot of the FARMS/FAIR info on the BoM; nevertheless, I am of a different opinion and don't agree with many of their positions.  I'm glad that you are comfortable with your beliefs -- I enjoying reading different points of view.  I do think that the BoM contains some powerful, inspirational verses... but I don't believe the events depicted actually took place.  

[Kenngo1969]

If one expends one's best efforts and can do no more than "desire to believe" or to believe in an "inspired-but-fictional" Book of Mormon,  more power to that person (see Alma 32:35). If one is "inspired" by the "Inspired Fiction" theory, if one's life is made better by the Book of Mormon despite any disagreements regarding the manner of its coming forth, more power to him or her.   

That said, on more than a few occasions, the putative contributors to the Book of Mormon, as well as its putative abridgers, have addressed their readers directly. Personally, I wouldn't feel very comfortable if I were to stand before, e.g., a Moroni, as he said we would in Moroni 10, and to attempt to defend my view that I thought the book was fiction.  For all of the questions that a putative historical Book of Mormon might raise, I believe a fictional Book of Mormon raises more questions than it answers, as more than a few participants in the Restoration reported seeing (and in at least one case, handling)  Book of Mormon objects, such as plates, the liahona, the sword of Laban, and so on, as well as having actual conversations with putative participants in Book of Mormon events, such as a Moroni.

As far-fetched as the account of the Book of Mormon's coming forth as a part of the Restoration narrative might seem, I think a fictional Book of Mormon creates more problems than it solves.  If one believes in the Restoration but in an ahistorical Book of Mormon, it's as though God said, "Let's see.  I'll need to manufacture some plates, a sword of Laban, and a liahona, and I'll need a hologram of an 'Angel' Moroni ..." and so on.

Edited November 13, 2016 by Kenngo1969

[Benjamin Seeker]

3 hours ago, Ouagadougou said:

Hello all!

I was recently having a discussion with my sister (who is an active member of the church) and we discussed the BoM.  I let her know that I think the BoM contains some inspiring, faith-promoting verses; however, I consider it to be a fiction.  She was visibly upset and said I can't be a faithful member without accepting that it actually took place.  This made me think:

- Can you be an active, faithful member in the church and still believe the BoM is a fictional book?  

- For those who consider the BoM to be fiction, how do you reconcile Moroni and other vital characters/individuals who participated in the restoration narrative? 

I'm generally interested to read your opinions about this subject.  

I choose to stay despite my belief that Book of Mormon is fiction. It definitely puts me at odds with the mainstream membership, but I just keep quiet about it and things move along smoothly. I stay because first, I do believe the Joseph Smith was inspired by God, and second, having been born into this faith and loving many parts of it, it's my home.

To briefly address your second question, I believe that revelation generally is a product of human understanding and our greatest potential. In the BoM, I see the ideas of Indians descending from Israelites as a 19th century idea (human understanding) that provide a compelling narrative to Joseph Smith and followers for doctrines of discipleship, divinization, etc. (human potential with God's help). The concept of Moroni obviously fits hand and glove with a whole host 19th century ideas, including Indian Israelite heritage, treasure hunting, and restoration expectations. Frankly, I don't think there was a physical being named Moroni, though I do believe that Joseph Smith and others had visions of this being. In other words, I think he was a product of revelation created in the minds of Joseph Smith and others. This is arguably supported by the fact that all accounts of Moroni have visionary elements to them. For example, he stands in the air, somehow floating through the ceiling in Joseph's first encounter. He appears out of nowhere surprising Joseph at the hill. Even in the mundane accounts of Moroni by David Whitmer and Mary Whitmer, where he appears without glory, there is still a visionary element. In each Moroni suddenly and mysteriously disappears at the end.

You also have to deal with the plates. I side with Dan Vogel and Ann Taves in their suggestion that JS probably made some plates. As Ann Taves suggested, I bet JS believed he was commanded by God to make them. There is even a highly related precedent in the masonic legend of Enoch, which has so many strong correlations with the Book of Mormon. Enoch sees a vision of a gold plate in a vault in a mount, and God then commands him to make the plate. This by itself isn't much to go on, but if you put it beside all of the similarities between the early mormonism and the legend of Enoch, it quickly becomes apparent that JS was inspired by the legend. Just a quick sampling to provide a little meat to my suggestions here: The masonic legend has Enoch learning the name of God and forseeing the flood and Noah. By comparison, JS' Enoch learns the name of God "Man of Holiness," and forsees the flood and Noah. Masonic Enoch makes a gold plate with God's name written in Hebrew on it, and places it in a stone vault with arches serving as the opening to each chamber complete with a stone cover in a mount along with pillars engraved with Egyptian hieroglyphics. One of the pillars is brass and has the creation account written on it among other things. The pillars have spheres on top of them, which contain the maps of the universe, and act as oracles. By comparison, the gold plates of the Book of Mormon are written in reformed Egyptian which, according to the text, is some amalgamation of Hebrew and Egyptian. The Brass plates have the five books of Moses (including the creation). The Liahona is a sphere that gives directions and divine instruction. JS discovers the plates in a concrete box with stone cover in hill CuMORAH (moriah is similar), Oliver Cowdery and Lucy Mack Smith describe pillars in the box, and Lucy describes the lid as having an arch. Masonic Enoch's plate has precious stones encrusted on it and is in the shape of a triangle. By comparison, JS gets the Urim and Thummim with the plates, which Lucy describes as triangles set in glass. Some versions of the legend have Enoch making a larger plate and a smaller plate, both with the name of God written on them, which provide a possible parallel to the larger and smaller plates of the BoM. There is still a fair bit more of correlation between the masonic legend and early mormonism, which has been written about for the past half century starting with Reed C. Durham's infamous "Is there no help for the widow's son" address. Anyways, I think I've shared enough to suggest that Enoch's vision of his gold plate and then being commanded to make it, could have been a precedent and inspiration to JS.

[Glenn101]

32 minutes ago, Five Solas said:

Pure unsubstantiated speculation, Marmonboy.  Smith's last recorded words suggest he pinned his hope/faith in Freemasonry, "Oh Lord my God" is the start of the Masonic Sign of Distress--which he may or may not have been able to complete (the internet isn't sure).  The author of the Book of Mormon, who rails against "secret combinations," etc.--yeah, probably not so much.   

But if you can demonstrate your POV, by all means, please do.

:0)

--Erik

The fact that he began the Masonic cry of distress, which supposedly requires any Masons within earshot to render immediate aid to a brother Mason, in no way demonstrates that Joseph did not have faith in God. It is pretty well established that there were Masons in the mob that murdered Joseph. Whether Joseph was calling on them for help or uttering his last words to God are moot. We don't know.

Of course, if I were in a tight spot and saw a man who was sworn to help me if I said the right words but was currently trying to do me in, I would surely give it a try.

 

Glenn

[Benjamin Seeker]

I should clarify that Enoch's vault is in Mount Moriah in many versions of the legend, which is why I drew the connection between Cumorah and moriah.

[Glenn101]

22 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

I've read a lot of the FARMS/FAIR info on the BoM; nevertheless, I am of a different opinion and don't agree with many of their positions.  I'm glad that you are comfortable with your beliefs -- I enjoying reading different points of view.  I do think that the BoM contains some powerful, inspirational verses... but I don't believe the events depicted actually took place.  

It's one thing to read something. It is still quite another to refute. It is okay to say that you do not concur with their opinions. However, that does little to enlighten those of us who have read the same material. Of course all LDS scholars are not of the same opinions as all others.

You are the last, as of today (but not for long), in a long line of critics who feel the Book of Mormon is fiction. I was hoping that you would have something more to add to the discussion except just expressing the same thoughts that all of the others have.

I am not really sure of your purpose in starting this thread.

I do have a question. Do you think that you could produce such a text using only the resources that Joseph Smith was known to have, without the use of computers and modern communications?

 

Glenn

 

[Glenn101]

46 minutes ago, Benjamin Seeker said:

I should clarify that Enoch's vault is in Mount Moriah in many versions of the legend, which is why I drew the connection between Cumorah and moriah.

Maybe it would help if you could find a connection between Joseph Smith and Free Masonry prior to 1829. His current known contacts happened well after the production of the Book of Mormon.

Disregard the above. I found out that Joseph Smith Senior was a Freemason.

Glenn

Edited November 13, 2016 by Glenn101
Leaped before I looked.