Gardner on Gadianton Robbers

[Dan Vogel]

The following grew out of Ben McGuire

[Kevin Christensen]

[Dan V. writes] If there were two lands of many waters, one would expect Mormon to distinguish the area of many waters in Helaman 3:4 from the more famous "land of many waters" of Cumorah.

[Kevin C.] With respect to Dan V's discussion of the "two lands of many waters", someone--I think it was me, wrote an article in FARMS Review 16:1 responding to an earlier online essay by Dan V.--, explaining that the Book of Mormon descriptions are distinct.

There is one "and of "many waters" discovered by Limhi's explorers:

[Brant Gardner]

Dan:

Thank you for the careful comments. Obviously they took you some time. I will take some time to respond - particularly since my employer expects some of my time as well.

Please be patient.

[Dan Vogel]

Kevin,

Thanks for your thoughts. Of course, I

[Beowulf]

Limhi's explorer problem is an interesting one.

So why, if it makes an interesting puzzle, does it become ipso facto proof that the BofM is not an ancient book?

In my mind, it just shows how complex the story line actually is.

[Kevin Christensen]

Amaleki writes of Mosiah 1 who came from the Land of Nephi to Zarahemla. (Omni 12) and gives the plates to Benjamin (Omni 25), and mentions a brother of his who goes back to Nephi (Omni 30). We're talking grandfather as the temporal distance, and likely some people alive who had made the journey by the time that Mosiah sends Ammon back. (Mosiah 7). Ammon's people go up hill for 40 days in the wilderness till the find Limhi's people. Limhi's explorers could not have spent much more time on the journey than that because they also had a grandfather temporal distance. Neither group is seeking a legendary city, but a recent family history.

[Dan V.] What readers would you be talking about? Certainly not Orson Pratt, George Reynolds, and many other early Mormons who were careful readers of the text but believed in hemispheric geography.

[Kevin C.] Even careful readers can miss things. This happens all the time. I keep finding new things in the Book of Mormon and other scriptures that I wonder why I missed for so long.

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

[Brant Gardner]

Dan Vogel:

Yet there is no discussion of the Book of Mormon

[Brant Gardner]

Dan Vogel:

Mormon happens to be sitting on top of the entire Nephite library. The text itself provides the source of his descriptions. Speaking of the history of these migrants, Mormon states:

[Brant Gardner]

Dan Vogel:

Nowhere does Mormon connect the Gadiantons with the northern migration; that is Gardner

[Dan Vogel]

Kevin,

Amaleki writes of Mosiah 1 who came from the Land of Nephi to Zarahemla. (Omni 12) and gives the plates to Benjamin (Omni 25), and mentions a brother of his who goes back to Nephi (Omni 30). We're talking grandfather as the temporal distance, and likely some people alive who had made the journey by the time that Mosiah sends Ammon back. (Mosiah 7). Ammon's people go up hill for 40 days in the wilderness till the find Limhi's people. Limhi's explorers could not have spent much more time on the journey than that because they also had a grandfather temporal distance. Neither group is seeking a legendary city, but a recent family history.

We are talking about three generations of kings: Zeniff, Noah, and Lemhi. If, as you say, there were

[Dan Vogel]

Brant,

You thought you were going to be slow responding. Finally, I get a large enough block of time to mull over your comments. Let me preface: It goes without saying that I am not a Mesoamericanist, but I have questions about what you bring to bear on the BofM

[Dan Vogel]

Brant,

Mormon happens to be sitting on top of the entire Nephite library. The text itself provides the source of his descriptions. Speaking of the history of these migrants, Mormon states:

[Brant Gardner]

Since it appears that most of Dan's first response simply reiterated his original opinion, there isn't much to say. There is a point that he still misses:

Vogel:

A four-year gap can

[Dan Vogel]

Brant,

Since it appears that most of Dan's first response simply reiterated his original opinion, there isn't much to say.

I find reiteration and reinforcement necessary since your response repeats the same mistakes.

A four-year gap can

[Brant Gardner]

Vogel:

I don

[Dan Vogel]

Brant,

At least I now understand the problem. Dan is speaking about the record of them leaving. I completely agree that Mormon knew they left and that records of them leaving existed.

My point was that Mormon would have no record of their returning to tell them about where they went - such as Hagoth where it explicitly says they were never heard from. What would Mormon's records tell us of the land that Hagoth's people reached? What if they shipwrecked and all were lost? Either is possible because Mormon does not and cannot know because no one came back.

There was an appalling lack of telephone service at that time. Unless someone returned, nothing was known about where they went.

You seem to think Mormon

[Brant Gardner]

Vogel:

You seem to think Mormon

[Dan Vogel]

Brant,

You seem to think Mormon