Licked Cupcake & Used Chewing Gum Poll

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, Rivers said:

I remember getting the crumpled up dollar bill analogy.  No matter how much you crumple it up, it's still worth a dollar.

I like the Kipling poem:

Though I've beaten you and flayed you,

By the very God that made you,

You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din.

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

There may be some instances where it is better just to consider the source and let the matter be.

On two occasions, after I had written articles mentioning the Mountain Meadows Massacre, I received a voicemail from the same elderly man, incensed about what I had written. His outrage can be summed up in his declaration: "Now you listen here: Mountain Meadows was the only battle we ever won."

I never did return those phone calls. I reasoned that it would do little good -- I would be highly unlikely to change his mind -- and might do harm by exacerbating contention.

Not very long afterward, I did a Google search on the man's name and found his obituary. Maybe he will be less dogmatic in the hereafter.

You can say I was a craven coward if you wish, but I think few people here would say I'm one that typically shies away from an argument. In fact, I might err more often in the opposite way.

Yes, wise words.  So maybe I can feel better now for avoiding needless bravado, including false bravado.  Still, I am uncertain whether the Lord will say to me on that day, "Well done, my good and faithful servant."  A man with no regrets has not been honest with himself.

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I like the Kipling poem:

Though I've beaten you and flayed you,

By the very God that made you,

You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din.

"By the living God that made you"

[birdgirl]

I had a YW leader offer us a beautiful chocolate cake and then she jammed her hand in the middle and offered us a fistful of mashed cake/frosting and said we would have to eat it out of her hand.  It was much less appetizing.  

My husband's seminary teacher brought in a fragile figurine and talked about how beautiful and valuable $ it was and then broke it and said that he could glue it together but it would never be flawless and valuable like before.  The worst part was he broke it on the desk of a girl who had already been "broken" or whatever euphemism you like and she ran out crying.  

 

 

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

"By the living God that made you"

A good reminder that I should not rely on my memory when quoting poetry -- especially when a correct reference is generally just a Google click away.

[Teancum]

14 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

Teachings that have caused problems for people are pretty numerous.  We live in a time when people seek to take offense by anything and anybody.  We also have an inordinate value put on hurt feelings; it is as if your feelings getting hurt is paramount to being murdered or bodily tortured for long hours.  But, I digress.  Teachings that have caused problems (in no particular order):

1. The Adam God theory
2. Blacks and the priesthood
3. When is a prophet not a prophet
4. the Word of Wisdom being equated or becoming more important than the Law of Chastity
5. Praise to the Man - Joseph Smith being the focus of our teachings rather than Jesus Christ

This list can get pretty long because we are in the unfortunate position of having a membership full of humans.  Our leaders and our members have taught a vast number of heresies, falsehoods, and false doctrine.  Each of these have caused harm to someone by misleading them for a number of years.  

Let's focus on what we are talking about specifically - some teachers seeking to teach the sanctity of the human body and the importance of keeping ourselves pure became so focused they forgot or misunderstood other important teachings.  Did anyone die as a result of these teachings?  Has anyone lost their salvation as a result have being brutally forced to listen to them one time or as many as eight times if the lesson was taught twice a year?  Was every child taught these heinous, overly wrought teachings destroyed or simply confused about certain teachings of the gospel?  

I don't think it is necessary to exaggerate things or to wring our hands over stupid humans doing wrong.  The reality - not a single individual was destroyed as a result of badly worded analogies.  If they were such apt students surely they would have been just as receptive to corrections or at least other teachings to clarified certain points which these silly teachings caused concern.  

This is simply your opinion.  But at least based on Elizabeth Smart's comments she was emotionally harmed by the poor way chastity had been taught.   I have read comments in other places for other people on the emotional harm the teaching cause,.  I have read comments by LDS who are professional therapists who resoundingly condemn many ways the church has and still does teach about chastity both with a focus on how harmful the approaches can be emotionally as well as how negatively a these things can have on a healthy sexual relationship in marriage.

so others who comment on how the LDS church and its approach by teachers in wards as well as some of what the leaders teach seem to disagree with your commentary above.

 

[Teancum]

Deleted post 

[Teancum]

13 hours ago, Glenn101 said:

   I never was taught or heard either of the two. I am half male, or rather, I should say I am half a man. anymore. I was taught the nails in a board analogy. But the point that I remember about the holes being left the effects that our sins leave on us or on people around us. We surely are cleansed from the the sin itself, but some effects can still be felt in our lives and the lives around us.

Take, for example, a drug addict or an alcoholic. He or she can be cleansed through repentance (and baptism if not a member of the church) but the physical changes in the body caused by the addiction still will be there. Another example is infidelity and the disastrous consequences to the ones betrayed. Those effects can last a lifetime, no matter how sincere and remorseful the repentance.

Glenn

Have you read th Miracle of Forgivenss.   There are plenty of gems in there like a rape victim should struggle to the death rather than submitting.  He uses the nail and hole analogy and says while repentance covers the hole it take a lot of work and plaster to cover the hole.  He implies in the book that while God will forgive sexual sinners will always carry the taint.

here are a few quotes that personally I think are over the top:

And Cain said unto the Lord, My punishment is greater than I can bear. Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth." (Genesis 4:9-14.) That was true of murder. It is also true of illicit sex, which, of course, includes all petting, fornication, adultery, homosexual acts, and all other perversions. The Lord may say to offenders, as He did to Cain, "What hast thou done?" The children thus conceived make damning charges against you; the companions who have been frustrated and violated condemn you; the body that has been defiled cries out against you; the spirit which has been dwarfed convicts you. You will have difficulty throughout the ages in totally forgiving yourself." -Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, "Love Versus Lust", BYU Speech January 5, 1965. 

 

 

If adultery or fornication justified the death penalty in the old days, and still in Christ's day, is the sin any less today because the laws of the land do not assess the death penalty for it? Is the act less grievous? There must be a washing, a purging, a changing of attitudes, a correcting of appraisals, a strengthening toward self-mastery. There must be many prayers, and volumes of tears. There must be an inner conviction giving to the sin its full diabolical weight. There must be increased devotion and much thought and study. And this takes energy and time and often is accompanied with sore embarrassment, heavy deprivations and deep trials, even if indeed one is not excommunicated from the Church, losing all spiritual blessings." -Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, "The Miracle of Forgiveness, Page 155

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ALarson]

6 hours ago, birdgirl said:

I had a YW leader offer us a beautiful chocolate cake and then she jammed her hand in the middle and offered us a fistful of mashed cake/frosting and said we would have to eat it out of her hand.  It was much less appetizing.  

My husband's seminary teacher brought in a fragile figurine and talked about how beautiful and valuable $ it was and then broke it and said that he could glue it together but it would never be flawless and valuable like before.  The worst part was he broke it on the desk of a girl who had already been "broken" or whatever euphemism you like and she ran out crying.  

Wow, that's awful.

I asked my now grown daughter if she ever had lessons like these and she said that her YW leader used a beautiful white gardenia.  She held it up and talked about how perfect and white and pure it was when it was "untouched". Then she passed it around the room to about 30 YW and asked everyone to touch it and feel it.  After she got it back, it was already wilting, turning brown where touched, and had lost some of it's petals.  The leader then used it as an example of losing your chastity and how one who has allowed others to touch them, etc., will never be perfect, pure and white again.   

I hope that none of these damaging types of object lessons are being taught to the YW in the church anymore.  And I'm pretty appalled at those here who feel that just because they weren't taught them, others who were should just get over their "hurt feelings".  These type of lessons cause a tremendous amount of pain that is beyond just having hurt feelings and they also teach false doctrine.

.

Edited September 5, 2016 by ALarson

[Storm Rider]

24 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Wow, that's awful.

I asked my now grown daughter if she ever had lessons like these and she said that her YW leader used a beautiful white gardenia.  She held it up and talked about how perfect and white and pure it was when it was "untouched". Then she passed it around the room to about 30 YW and asked everyone to touch it and feel it.  After she got it back, it was already wilting, turning brown where touched, and had lost some of it's petals.  The leader then used it as an example of losing your chastity and how one who has allowed others to touch them, etc., will never be perfect, pure and white again.   

I hope that none of these damaging types of object lessons are being taught to the YW in the church anymore.  And I'm pretty appalled at those here who feel that just because they weren't taught them, others who were should just get over their "hurt feelings".  These type of lessons cause a tremendous amount of pain that is beyond just having hurt feelings and they also teach false doctrine.

.

We have heard a strong voice condemning several different ways humans have tried to teach about the sanctity of the human body.  For some I suspect they may have the impression that chastity has little real value and that should an individual have premarital sex or experiment with their sexuality there is no real harm done, certainly not enough that a quick prayer and all will be forgiven.

How would you teach chastity to young men and women?  Does choosing to not engage in premarital sex have any real value in this enlightened age?  What should be taught about the guilt that often, if not always, accompanies sin?

[Teancum]

25 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

We have heard a strong voice condemning several different ways humans have tried to teach about the sanctity of the human body.  For some I suspect they may have the impression that chastity has little real value and that should an individual have premarital sex or experiment with their sexuality there is no real harm done, certainly not enough that a quick prayer and all will be forgiven.

How would you teach chastity to young men and women?  Does choosing to not engage in premarital sex have any real value in this enlightened age?  What should be taught about the guilt that often, if not always, accompanies sin?

Personally I think chastity has high value and am all for waiting until marriage.   I don't have a problem with teaching that chastity is valuable and from a religious stand point it is a commandment of God to remain chaste until marriage.

I don't beleive it is the sin next to murder unless perhaps you put rape into that bucket.  I dont think the church can do a good job teaching chastity without the object lessons and classifying it as next to murder.  I think some of the suggestuons made already on this and the other thread on this topic contain some good ideas.   I think anyone who believes in the atonement should teach it like Elder Holland did in the talk Calm quoted....that there is no hole in any board because you have become a new board or creation if you will.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

 

[Jeanne]

7 hours ago, birdgirl said:

I had a YW leader offer us a beautiful chocolate cake and then she jammed her hand in the middle and offered us a fistful of mashed cake/frosting and said we would have to eat it out of her hand.  It was much less appetizing.  

My husband's seminary teacher brought in a fragile figurine and talked about how beautiful and valuable $ it was and then broke it and said that he could glue it together but it would never be flawless and valuable like before.  The worst part was he broke it on the desk of a girl who had already been "broken" or whatever euphemism you like and she ran out crying.  

 

 

This is the worst!!!!

[Jeanne]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

Have you read th Miracle of Forgivenss.   There are plenty of gems in there like a rape victim should struggle to the death rather than submitting.  He uses the nail and hole analogy and says while repentance covers the hole it take a lot of work and plaster to cover the hole.  He implies in the book that while God will forgive sexual sinners will always carry the taint.

here are a few quotes that personally I think are over the top:

And Cain said unto the Lord, My punishment is greater than I can bear. Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth." (Genesis 4:9-14.) That was true of murder. It is also true of illicit sex, which, of course, includes all petting, fornication, adultery, homosexual acts, and all other perversions. The Lord may say to offenders, as He did to Cain, "What hast thou done?" The children thus conceived make damning charges against you; the companions who have been frustrated and violated condemn you; the body that has been defiled cries out against you; the spirit which has been dwarfed convicts you. You will have difficulty throughout the ages in totally forgiving yourself." -Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, "Love Versus Lust", BYU Speech January 5, 1965. 

 

 

If adultery or fornication justified the death penalty in the old days, and still in Christ's day, is the sin any less today because the laws of the land do not assess the death penalty for it? Is the act less grievous? There must be a washing, a purging, a changing of attitudes, a correcting of appraisals, a strengthening toward self-mastery. There must be many prayers, and volumes of tears. There must be an inner conviction giving to the sin its full diabolical weight. There must be increased devotion and much thought and study. And this takes energy and time and often is accompanied with sore embarrassment, heavy deprivations and deep trials, even if indeed one is not excommunicated from the Church, losing all spiritual blessings." -Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, "The Miracle of Forgiveness, Page 155

 

 

 

 

 

 

I wonder how many young women when reading this, just wished she was dead. 

[Kenngo1969]

Yes, on the one hand, Isaiah wrote that “though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow. Though they be crimson, they shall be as wool.” He didn't write, “Well, if you're lucky, maybe the Atonement will turn your bright-red sins sort of a faint pinkish hue.”

Yet, on the other hand, one cannot unimpregnate a woman (and she cannot be unimpregnated herself); one cannot ungive someone a sexually transmitted disease, and cannot give someone her (or his) virginity back. Yes, the Gospel and the Atonement of Jesus Christ offer tremendous promises of peace and forgiveness, but they cannot (in this life, anyway) undo all the earthly consequences to which one may be subject because of the law of the harvest.

In at least some cases, we'll have to wait for the Resurrection and/or for the Afterlife for that. So it's not an either-or proposition: Either the Atonement is fully effective in your life, or you're a “licked cupcake.” It's a fine line, and I do think teachers should be careful to not send the wrong message, but I don't think there's anything wrong with teaching that the entirety of mortal life is an awful long time to have to wait for some of the harmful consequences visited upon us by the law of the harvest to be made right.

[Rain]

2 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Yes, on the one hand, Isaiah wrote that “though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow. Though they be crimson, they shall be as wool.” He didn't write, “Well, if you're lucky, maybe the Atonement will turn your bright-red sins sort of a faint pinkish hue.”

Yet, on the other hand, one cannot unimpregnate a woman (and she cannot be unimpregnated herself); one cannot ungive someone a sexually transmitted disease, and cannot give someone her (or his) virginity back. Yes, the Gospel and the Atonement of Jesus Christ offer tremendous promises of peace and forgiveness, but they cannot (in this life, anyway) undo all the earthly consequences to which one may be subject because of the law of the harvest.

In at least some cases, we'll have to wait for the Resurrection and/or for the Afterlife for that. So it's not an either-or proposition: Either the Atonement is fully effective in your life, or you're a “licked cupcake.” It's a fine line, and I do think teachers should be careful to not send the wrong message, but I don't think there's anything wrong with teaching that the entirety of mortal life is an awful long time to have to wait for some of the harmful consequences visited upon us by the law of the harvest to be made right.

Two different sets of consequences.  Some have to do with the sin part.  Some the physical/mental nature.  In this life if one fully repents one can be worthy despite the other consequences you mentioned. And even then atonement, the enabling part,  can be fully effective in helping one deal with the second, but it may not be what you expect. This is one of the reasons why the gum and the cupcake analogies fail. 

Edited September 5, 2016 by Rain

[rodheadlee]

I suspect if you change your perspective from a victim of rape to a victim of adultery you will have a different opinion of these analogies.

[Glenn101]

3 hours ago, Teancum said:

Have you read th Miracle of Forgivenss.   There are plenty of gems in there like a rape victim should struggle to the death rather than submitting.  He uses the nail and hole analogy and says while repentance covers the hole it take a lot of work and plaster to cover the hole.  He implies in the book that while God will forgive sexual sinners will always carry the taint.

here are a few quotes that personally I think are over the top:

And Cain said unto the Lord, My punishment is greater than I can bear. Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth." (Genesis 4:9-14.) That was true of murder. It is also true of illicit sex, which, of course, includes all petting, fornication, adultery, homosexual acts, and all other perversions. The Lord may say to offenders, as He did to Cain, "What hast thou done?" The children thus conceived make damning charges against you; the companions who have been frustrated and violated condemn you; the body that has been defiled cries out against you; the spirit which has been dwarfed convicts you. You will have difficulty throughout the ages in totally forgiving yourself." -Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, "Love Versus Lust", BYU Speech January 5, 1965. 

 

 

If adultery or fornication justified the death penalty in the old days, and still in Christ's day, is the sin any less today because the laws of the land do not assess the death penalty for it? Is the act less grievous? There must be a washing, a purging, a changing of attitudes, a correcting of appraisals, a strengthening toward self-mastery. There must be many prayers, and volumes of tears. There must be an inner conviction giving to the sin its full diabolical weight. There must be increased devotion and much thought and study. And this takes energy and time and often is accompanied with sore embarrassment, heavy deprivations and deep trials, even if indeed one is not excommunicated from the Church, losing all spiritual blessings." -Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, "The Miracle of Forgiveness, Page 155

   Yes, I have read the "Miracle of Forgiveness", many years ago, at a time I was in need of repentance (more so than usual, that is). It gave me hope at a time I was in the deepest despair and helped me turn my life around.

There is nothing in either of those two quotes that is out of line with reality. The quote from the speech is in line with with my own note about some of the consequences of adultery. In either case, a truly repentant person will have a difficult time forgiving himself, even after having received a remission of any such sin.

The quote from the miracle of forgiveness is speaking to the degree of difficulty in the repentance process, not after repentance and forgiveness.

I did have some qualms concerning the comments about rape rape victims. Reading that as printed could have been devastating to a rape victim.

 

Glenn

[Eek!]

21 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

Did anyone die as a result of these teachings?  Has anyone lost their salvation as a result have being brutally forced to listen to them one time or as many as eight times if the lesson was taught twice a year?  Was every child taught these heinous, overly wrought teachings destroyed or simply confused about certain teachings of the gospel?  

Many years ago I was referred by my bishop to a therapist who was LDS.  In the course of our sessions, this therapist told me that The Miracle of Forgiveness was the leading cause of suicide among adult Mormons.  That was three decades ago, and if it was literally true then it was probably only true for a limited time, but the fact that a trained and experienced therapist would make such a statement is a very strong indication that teachings which engender a feeling of hopelessness can indeed cause great harm. 

Imo religion should lighten the burdens of life, not make them heavier.  We thrive when we have hope, and we wither and sometimes even choose to die when we do not.  Imo hopelessness is never of God, and so any line of thinking that leads to a hopeless conclusion has a mistake in it somewhere. 

Edited September 5, 2016 by Eek!

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Teancum said:

I think anyone who believes in the atonement should teach it like Elder Holland did in the talk Calm quoted....

CV found and quoted it first, I just borrowed it.

[Danzo]

58 minutes ago, Eek! said:

Many years ago I was referred by my bishop to a therapist who was LDS.  In the course of our sessions, this therapist told me that The Miracle of Forgiveness was the leading cause of suicide among adult Mormons.  

Since your therapist was a responsible professional, I'm sure he or she based that statement on a thorough survey on all suicides where the victim was LDS. I am sure that this conclusion was based on evidence in each suicide clearly linking the death with this book.  I would be interested to see this study, but I won't hold my breath.

Edited September 5, 2016 by Danzo

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Eek! said:

 In the course of our sessions, this therapist told me that The Miracle of Forgiveness was the leading cause of suicide among adult Mormons.

I find a comment (assuming your paraphrase is accurate) like that irresponsible and trivializing of the exceedingly complex condition that too often tragically ends in suicide.

Edited September 5, 2016 by Calm

[Scott Lloyd]

3 hours ago, Rain said:

Two different sets of consequences.  Some have to do with the sin part.  Some the physical/mental nature.  In this life if one fully repents one can be worthy despite the other consequences you mentioned. And even then atonement, the enabling part,  can be fully effective in helping one deal with the second, but it may not be what you expect.

I think that's pretty much what Kenngo was saying.

[bcuzbcuz]

5 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Yes, on the one hand, Isaiah wrote that “though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow. Though they be crimson, they shall be as wool.” He didn't write, “Well, if you're lucky, maybe the Atonement will turn your bright-red sins sort of a faint pinkish hue.”

Yet, on the other hand, one cannot unimpregnate a woman (and she cannot be unimpregnated herself); one cannot ungive someone a sexually transmitted disease, and cannot give someone her (or his) virginity back. Yes, the Gospel and the Atonement of Jesus Christ offer tremendous promises of peace and forgiveness, but they cannot (in this life, anyway) undo all the earthly consequences to which one may be subject because of the law of the harvest.

In at least some cases, we'll have to wait for the Resurrection and/or for the Afterlife for that. So it's not an either-or proposition: Either the Atonement is fully effective in your life, or you're a “licked cupcake.” It's a fine line, and I do think teachers should be careful to not send the wrong message, but I don't think there's anything wrong with teaching that the entirety of mortal life is an awful long time to have to wait for some of the harmful consequences visited upon us by the law of the harvest to be made right.

Your closing line in your first paragraph is totally contradicted by your opinion in paragraph two.

You're saying, essentially, that a non-Mormon woman who has been sexually active before being baptized but then gets baptized, can never consider herself clean. The "Gospel and the Atonement of Jesus Christ offers tremendous promises of peace and forgiveness, BUT"

Something like "one cannot unimpregnate a woman". Sounds very "faint pinkish hue" to me.

 

 

[Eek!]

1 hour ago, Danzo said:

Since your therapist was a responsible professional, I'm sure he or she based that statement on a thorough survey on all suicides where the victim was LDS. I am sure that this conclusion was based on evidence in each suicide clearly linking the death with this book.  I would be interested to see this study, but I won't hold my breath.

That my recollection of the opinion of a professional, which you are of course free to dismiss for any of a variety of reasons.. 

Edited September 5, 2016 by Eek!

[Eek!]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I find a comment (assuming your paraphrase is accurate) like that irresponsible and trivializing of the exceedingly complex condition that too often tragically ends in suicide.

Storm Rider asked if anyone had ever died as a result of false teachings relative to the subject at hand.  I passed along one professional's opinion that teachings which induce a sense of hopelessness can (and sometimes do) lead to suicide.  Of course there are other factors in suicides, should I have said so?  Did I fail to put in enough disclaimers and qualifiers?  

The point is, such teachings can be damaging.  Imo better for religion to offer healing rather than condemnation, subtle or not.  

Edited September 5, 2016 by Eek!