Baptism and the Atonement

[jkwilliams]

 Not that it matters, but here is the quote given in the OP from me:
 

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I said pretty clearly that, as I was always taught, the blessings of the Atonement and the companionship of the Holy Ghost are crucial for young people to navigate their growing-up years, and these blessings are available only through the covenant of baptism and receiving the Holy Ghost. You said that was "false" and "without basis." No, it's basic church doctrine.  

 

It is absolutely church doctrine that only those who receive the gift of the Holy Ghost have the right to the companionship of the Holy Ghost, whether anyone believes that's false or not. I can't believe we're even discussing such a basic doctrine. From the church's web page:
 

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All honest seekers of the truth can feel the influence of the Holy Ghost, leading them to Jesus Christ and His gospel. However, the fulness of the blessings given through the Holy Ghost are available only to those who receive the gift of the Holy Ghost and remain worthy.

After a person is baptized into The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, one or more Melchizedek Priesthood holders lay their hands on the person's head and, in a sacred priesthood ordinance, confirm him or her a member of the Church. As part of this ordinance, called confirmation, the person is given the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The gift of the Holy Ghost is different from the influence of the Holy Ghost. Before baptism, a person can feel the influence of the Holy Ghost from time to time and through that influence can receive a testimony of the truth. After receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, a person has the right to the constant companionship of that member of the Godhead if he or she keeps the commandments.

 

As for the blessings of the Atonement, I clarified that I was talking about sanctification through the Atonement and the purifying fire of the Holy Ghost, both of which are available only to those who have been baptized and have received the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands. We read in 3 Nephi 27:20:

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Now this is the commandment: Repent, all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me and be baptized in my name, that ye may be sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost, that ye may stand spotless before me at the last day.

Here we have an entire thread calling me out by name and arguing against an assertion I never made. I figured if I said nothing, everyone would assume Mark's characterization of my position was correct. I guess I wasn't willing for that to happen.

Edited August 12, 2016 by jkwilliams

[HappyJackWagon]

3 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Come on, I know you understand the atonement better than that.

Repentance and acceptance of Christ as Lord is required for salvation from death (aka resurrection).
Baptism is required for salvation in the Celestial Kingdom.
Exaltation requires living (or a willingness to live) every law and ordinance that God follows so that we become like him.

Forgiveness is good for the individual because they will receive salvation from death even without baptism.
They just won't be in God's kingdom.  They will be one of those who bow the knee and confess with the tongue that Jesus is the Christ and escape perdition (hence none are lost because every knee will bow) - those who refuse to accept Christ as Lord.

Forgiveness of the individual removes the sin that would require them to remain in the grave because the wages of sin is death.
All but perdition receive this salvation in some kingdom of glory.  To enter God's kingdom is to covenant to follow Christ's laws as evidenced in baptism.

I'm really fascinated by this response. This is very different than what I have learned in the church.

The first part of the atonement is overcoming physical death. I don't believe it is church doctrine that repentance, or even the acceptance of Christ, is required for resurrection. Resurrection is a free gift to all who have received a mortal body. There are no qualifiers beyond that.

The second part of the atonement is overcoming spiritual death. The cleansing power of God's forgiveness requires repentance. That repentance is demonstrated through baptism which is why baptism is required for anyone who desires to enter the kingdom of God.

So if we say someone can be forgiven without repentance and baptism, and therefore not qualifying to be in God's kingdom, what's the point of that forgiveness? What has it accomplished? It hasn't cleansed anyone or made them "worthy" to enter God's presence. 

I think this is a fascinating discussion. I'm sorry some people consider it to be drivel.

 

 

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[jkwilliams]

8 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I'm really fascinated by this response. This is very different than what I have learned in the church.

The first part of the atonement is overcoming physical death. I don't believe it is church doctrine that repentance, or even the acceptance of Christ, is required for resurrection. Resurrection is a free gift to all who have received a mortal body. There are no qualifiers beyond that.

The second part of the atonement is overcoming spiritual death. The cleansing power of God's forgiveness requires repentance. That repentance is demonstrated through baptism which is why baptism is required for anyone who desires to enter the kingdom of God.

So if we say someone can be forgiven without repentance and baptism, and therefore not qualifying to be in God's kingdom, what's the point of that forgiveness? What has it accomplished? It hasn't cleansed anyone or made them "worthy" to enter God's presence. 

I think this is a fascinating discussion. I'm sorry some people consider it to be drivel.

 I don't think it's drivel at all. It is indeed fascinating to see the spectrum of belief here over what most people would consider basic doctrines of the church. 

My understanding has always been that, to be worthy of the celestial kingdom, one must undergo what is described in the Book of Mormon as a "mighty change of heart" that purges one of the "disposition" to commit sin. As far as I was taught, that change of heart is sanctification through the Holy Spirit, the baptism of fire or sealing by the Holy Spirit of Promise, which comes only after baptism and the reception of the Holy Ghost and enduring in a covenant relationship with God. If these blessings are available without entering into the covenant, there's no real reason to be baptized, is there? On the other hand, if forgiveness is available but not sanctification, it does little good in the long run, as you note.

[mfbukowski]

Lol.

Ah yes, the old apostate who doesn't understand basic doctrine.

Well that's how it goes when you are as dim as I am. 

Keep on shoveling, you might get some exercise! 

[jkwilliams]

11 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Lol.

Ah yes, the old apostate who doesn't understand basic doctrine.

Well that's how it goes when you are as dim as I am. 

Keep on shoveling, you might get some exercise! 

I didn't know you were an apostate.

I don't claim that my understanding is exactly right, and I'm happy to be shown when I'm wrong. I don't, however, enjoy being misrepresented, however much of a laugh you get out of it.

Edited August 12, 2016 by jkwilliams

[Glenn101]

17 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

We agree- kind of

That portion that you quoted from me, was a summary of the position I was arguing against.  Sorry if that was not clear

The idea that all will be baptized kind of makes the whole point irrelevant anyway as your argument shows

If everyone will be baptized in the long run then I have no problem with the idea that one must be baptized to be forgiven- the bottom line is that all will be forgiven and essentially baptism becomes irrelevant because everyone will receive it.  It's kind of like saying you have to be alive to be forgiven

The point was whether or not nonmembers will be forgiven.  Your answer I think is "yes" to that, as was mine

One is not harmed by not being baptized on this side of the veil on that view and that is all that is required to fit with my point

We agree. kind of, and we disagree kind of. There is a reason that there is a Terrestrial and a Telestial kingdom. A person will indeed be harmed if not baptized on this side of the veil, if such an one has the opportunity to hear the Gospel and rejects it. That is the understanding I get from the scriptures that I have read. I will provide references if you ask, but I am pretty sure you already know the ones of which I speak.

We could discuss the nuance from here to the Millennium and maybe we would have pretty close. And maybe I am just arguing debating  semantics here. The main point is, in my opinion, is that the Lord has made a provision for everyone to hear the gospel, repent, and be baptized, whether in this life or the next. And He will be the judge of who did and did not have a legitimate opportunity here in this life. We just have to do all we can to help in that regard with our temple work.

 

And we probably do agree more than we disagree. I have been going back over your back and forth with JKW.

 

Edited to add:

I am wondering about the issue that he raises. If a person does have the gift of the Holy Ghost but dwells in a household whose parents are polygamous, will the Holy Ghost dwell there? What would the Holy Ghost be able to tell such an one?

Glenn

Edited August 12, 2016 by Glenn101
Added some stuff

[HappyJackWagon]

23 minutes ago, Glenn101 said:

I am wondering about the issue that he raises. If a person does have the gift of the Holy Ghost but dwells in a household whose parents are polygamous, will the Holy Ghost dwell there? What would the Holy Ghost be able to tell such an one?

Glenn

What good would the Holy Ghost be if he will not dwell in certain places where he is needed. And how useful would he be if he was unable to have influence on a child who lives in household where all gospel principles are not taught or followed? Serious question.

 

[jkwilliams]

20 minutes ago, Glenn101 said:

We agree. kind of, and we disagree kind of. There is a reason that there is a Terrestrial and a Telestial kingdom. A person will indeed be harmed if not baptized on this side of the veil, if such an one has the opportunity to hear the Gospel and rejects it. That is the understanding I get from the scriptures that I have read. I will provide references if you ask, but I am pretty sure you already know the ones of which I speak.

We could discuss the nuance from here to the Millennium and maybe we would have pretty close. And maybe I am just arguing debating  semantics here. The main point is, in my opinion, is that the Lord has made a provision for everyone to hear the gospel, repent, and be baptized, whether in this life or the next. And He will be the judge of who did and did not have a legitimate opportunity here in this life. We just have to do all we can to help in that regard with our temple work.

 

And we probably do agree more than we disagree. I have been going back over your back and forth with JKW.

 

Edited to add:

I am wondering about the issue that he raises. If a person does have the gift of the Holy Ghost but dwells in a household whose parents are polygamous, will the Holy Ghost dwell there? What would the Holy Ghost be able to tell such an one?

Glenn

That is an interesting question. I think it's fair to say that, because such children can't be baptized, they aren't eligible to have the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost. Can someone in a house where the commandments are disregarded still feel the prompting of the spirit? I think the answer is yes. Heaven knows my wife's home growing up was an awful place, but she developed and nurtured real faith. 

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

So if we say someone can be forgiven without repentance and baptism, and therefore not qualifying to be in God's kingdom, what's the point of that forgiveness? What has it accomplished? It hasn't cleansed anyone or made them "worthy" to enter God's presence.

The price for the sin has to be paid or the person must remain in the grave, unresurrected.  That is the curse of Adam and the reason for the atonement.
The point of forgiveness is that they not become perdition.  None are lost but perdition, those who refuse to accept Christ is the Lord (like Lucifer).
All others will be saved to some level of glory merely by bowing the knee and confessing Christ as God's heir and ruler of men, regardless of whether they follow him.

But only those who choose to follow him are cleansed sufficient to enter God's kingdom.

D&C 88:27 For notwithstanding they die, they also shall rise again, a spiritual body.
28 They who are of a celestial spirit shall receive the same body which was a natural body; even ye shall receive your bodies, and your glory shall be that glory by which your bodies are quickened.
29 Ye who are quickened by a portion of the celestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.
30 And they who are quickened by a portion of the terrestrial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.
31 And also they who are quickened by a portion of the telestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fullness.

57 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

My understanding has always been that, to be worthy of the celestial kingdom, one must undergo what is described in the Book of Mormon as a "mighty change of heart" that purges one of the "disposition" to commit sin. As far as I was taught, that change of heart is sanctification through the Holy Spirit, the baptism of fire or sealing by the Holy Spirit of Promise, which comes only after baptism and the reception of the Holy Ghost and enduring in a covenant relationship with God. If these blessings are available without entering into the covenant, there's no real reason to be baptized, is there? On the other hand, if forgiveness is available but not sanctification, it does little good in the long run, as you note.

These blessings are NOT available without entering into the covenant.  Salvation is available but not in God's kingdom.  Another salvation from death for those who will not follow Christ but only acknowledge his authority.

[JAHS]

6 hours ago, RevTestament said:

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. However, God's instructions to us now are that baptism is required, which is what makes temple work so important for our ancestors.

"thou shalt declare repentance and faith on the Savior, and remission of sins by baptism, and by fire, yea, even the Holy Ghost." (D&C 19: 31)
"Yea, repent and be baptized, every one of you, for a remission of your sins; yea, be baptized even by water," (D&C 33:11)
 "preach repentance and remission of sins by way of baptism in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God." (D&C 55:2)
 "And he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, and he that believeth not, and is not baptized, shall be damned." (D&C 112:29)
"Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins," (D&C 39: 10) 

Not sure how one can argue that baptism is not required for forgiveness of sins, given these and other scriptures.

Well, these don't quite say that baptism is required for sins to be forgiven

To me they do say that a remission of sins comes through baptism ("wash away your sins"), unless there is a difference between remission of sins and forgiveness of sins?
 

[jkwilliams]

9 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

These blessings are NOT available without entering into the covenant.  Salvation is available but not in God's kingdom.  Another salvation from death for those who will not follow Christ but only acknowledge his authority.

That is how I understand it, too. 

[HappyJackWagon]

2 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

The price for the sin has to be paid or the person must remain in the grave, unresurrected.  That is the curse of Adam and the reason for the atonement.
The point of forgiveness is that they not become perdition.  None are lost but perdition, those who refuse to accept Christ is the Lord (like Lucifer).
All others will be saved to some level of glory merely by bowing the knee and confessing Christ as God's heir and ruler of men, regardless of whether they follow him.

But only those who choose to follow him are cleansed sufficient to enter God's kingdom.

D&C 88:27 For notwithstanding they die, they also shall rise again, a spiritual body.
28 They who are of a celestial spirit shall receive the same body which was a natural body; even ye shall receive your bodies, and your glory shall be that glory by which your bodies are quickened.
29 Ye who are quickened by a portion of the celestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.
30 And they who are quickened by a portion of the terrestrial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.
31 And also they who are quickened by a portion of the telestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fullness.

These blessings are NOT available without entering into the covenant.  Salvation is available but not in God's kingdom.  Another salvation from death for those who will not follow Christ but only acknowledge his authority.

CFR on the bolded. I'm not sure where you're getting this. You seem to be conflating spiritual and physical death.

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Through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, all people will be resurrected and saved from physical death (see 1 Corinthians 15:22).

Although all people will be resurrected, only those who have come unto Christ and partaken of the fulness of His gospel will inherit exaltation in the celestial kingdom. https://www.lds.org/topics/resurrection?lang=eng

And how do people come unto Christ and partake of the fullness of His Gospel? It begins with the ordinance of baptism.

The atonement can roughly be broken into three events. The Garden of Gethsemane where he suffered for all the sins and pains of the word so that they might be overcome. The cross, whereupon he gave up His life. And finally resurrection from the tomb. His resurrection opened the door so that ALL people will be resurrected.

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Quote

The price for the sin has to be paid or the person must remain in the grave, unresurrected. 

CFR on the bolded. I'm not sure where you're getting this. You seem to be conflating spiritual and physical death.

No, that is basic Mormonism (and Christianity).
Because of the fall we die.  Any stains of mortality or sin that remain on us prevent us from being resurrected.  We cannot be raised immortal with mortality still upon us.
Because of Christ's atonement all will be resurrected (none are lost).  Clearly that is less than baptism since not all will choose to accept baptized but more than perdition who fight against Christ.

CFR quotes - (to start with)

• Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
• 2 Nephi 9:7  Wherefore, it must needs be an infinite atonement—save it should be an infinite atonement this corruption could not put on incorruption. Wherefore, the first judgment which came upon man must needs have remained to an endless duration. And if so, this flesh must have laid down to rot and to crumble to its mother earth, to rise no more.

https://www.lds.org/manual/book-of-mormon-video-guide/chapter-15-alma-40-42?lang=eng

• Because of the Fall of Adam, the scales of justice are out of balance. To balance the scales, the punishment of temporal death (separation of the spirit and body) and spiritual death (being cut off from the presence of God) were brought upon all mankind (see Alma 42:7–9). If no Atonement had been made, our bodies would remain in the grave and our spirits would be miserable, being subject to the devil and cut off from the presence of God forever (see 2 Nephi 9:7–9).

So follow the logic here:

1. Christ says none are lost but perdition.  All others will be saved and resurrected to some kingdom of glory.
2. Without the atonement no resurrection would occur because our bodies would remain corrupt and mortal.
3. Accepting baptism gains entrance into the Celestial Kingdom, a celestial salvation.  Rejecting baptism (a covenant with Christ) gain salvation in one of the lesser kingdoms.
4. So given that all will be resurrected but not all will enter the Celestial Kingdom there is a requirement for resurrection/salvation from the grave that doesn't require entering the baptismal covenant of the Celestial.
   You seem to be implying this is an automatic gift because of Christ's resurrection.  I agree but I believe it also is dependent upon the notion that EVERY knee shall bow and tongue confess Jesus is the Christ. That is, those that do not choose to reject the gift.
5. All those who fight Christ and refuse to confess his name, those are perdition.

So where are we?:

Category A - Those who fight Christ and refuse to accept him or his gift of salvation.  Perdition (like Lucifer and the 1/3 part).
Category B - Those who acknowledge Christ's authority but don't want to follow him (covenant through baptism) - those receive a free gift resurrection by acknowledging Christ as Lord and go to another kingdom of glory.
Category C - Those who enter a covenant with Christ through baptism (here or vicariously) and enter into his Kingdom
Category D - Those who are willing to keep all of the laws of God and Christ receive exaltation in his Kingdom and all that he and the Father possess.

Edited August 12, 2016 by JLHPROF

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Glenn101 said:

We agree. kind of, and we disagree kind of. There is a reason that there is a Terrestrial and a Telestial kingdom. A person will indeed be harmed if not baptized on this side of the veil, if such an one has the opportunity to hear the Gospel and rejects it. That is the understanding I get from the scriptures that I have read. I will provide references if you ask, but I am pretty sure you already know the ones of which I speak.

We could discuss the nuance from here to the Millennium and maybe we would have pretty close. And maybe I am just arguing debating  semantics here. The main point is, in my opinion, is that the Lord has made a provision for everyone to hear the gospel, repent, and be baptized, whether in this life or the next. And He will be the judge of who did and did not have a legitimate opportunity here in this life. We just have to do all we can to help in that regard with our temple work.

 

And we probably do agree more than we disagree. I have been going back over your back and forth with JKW.

 

Edited to add:

I am wondering about the issue that he raises. If a person does have the gift of the Holy Ghost but dwells in a household whose parents are polygamous, will the Holy Ghost dwell there? What would the Holy Ghost be able to tell such an one?

Glenn

Well I think we are in full accord.

Having had many spiritual experiences before joining the church, I know that one can receive powerful inspiration regardless of whose definitions and semantics we want to use to prove our point. 

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

What good would the Holy Ghost be if he will not dwell in certain places where he is needed. And how useful would he be if he was unable to have influence on a child who lives in household where all gospel principles are not taught or followed? Serious question.

 

Uh oh.

You are sounding like me now. That has been my point all along. And that inspiration includes the comforting spirit of the atonement upon repentance.

Even if your parents are gay, of course.

[thatjimguy]

It's the same thing with many ideas in the church. Use the spirit. I know that actual baptism is the way we roll, but I also know that if all we have to use for blessing the Sacrament is a snickers bar and a bottle of prune juice, we use it.

There is a problem with any idea that says God withholds any blessing or righteous desire because of the "letter of the law". Why? Because that is why he came to us in the first place! To break that letter of the law!

It is so simple to understand if you let it sink in.

[mfbukowski]

5 minutes ago, thatjimguy said:

It's the same thing with many ideas in the church. Use the spirit. I know that actual baptism is the way we roll, but I also know that if all we have to use for blessing the Sacrament is a snickers bar and a bottle of prune juice, we use it.

There is a problem with any idea that says God withholds any blessing or righteous desire because of the "letter of the law". Why? Because that is why he came to us in the first place! To break that letter of the law!

It is so simple to understand if you let it sink in.

First time I have EVER given you a rep point!!

[waveslider]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

it also is dependent upon the notion that EVERY knee shall bow and tongue confess Jesus is the Christ. That is, those that do not choose to reject the gift.

I don't believe that to be the case, because we aren't punished for Adam's transgression, which originally brought death upon ourselves. This is why resurrection is to be given to all who have ever been born into a mortal body, even if they choose perdition after being born into mortality. The reason all won't be living with Father In Heaven is because or our own transgressions, and not having a willingness to follow God's plan that Christ implemented. I personally believe that those who become the sons of perdition will still retain their body.

[JLHPROF]

11 minutes ago, thatjimguy said:

It's the same thing with many ideas in the church. Use the spirit. I know that actual baptism is the way we roll, but I also know that if all we have to use for blessing the Sacrament is a snickers bar and a bottle of prune juice, we use it.

There is a problem with any idea that says God withholds any blessing or righteous desire because of the "letter of the law". Why? Because that is why he came to us in the first place! To break that letter of the law!

It is so simple to understand if you let it sink in.

If that is why you think Christ came to us, you might want to think again.  Not to break the letter of the law, but to show a better way to follow it.  The law still applied.

I agree 100% about the snickers and prune juice.
But the law dictates that the sacrament be observed, not what is used.

Christ and God became who they are because of obedience to the law, not because they broke them.  They did decry any obsessive pharisaical behavior, but that in no way eliminated the necessity of following the law.

Ignoring a law because of the "spirit vs letter" argument is a quick way down a wrong path.

[JLHPROF]

5 minutes ago, waveslider said:

I don't believe that to be the case, because we aren't punished for Adam's transgression, which originally brought death upon ourselves. This is why resurrection is to be given to all who have ever been born into a mortal body, even if they choose perdition after being born into mortality. The reason all won't be living with Father In Heaven is because or our own transgressions, and not having a willingness to follow God's plan that Christ implemented. I personally believe that those who become the sons of perdition will still retain their body.

Really very simple.

Those who fight and reject Christ = perdition
Those who acknowledge Christ but don't want to follow = lower kingdom of salvation and resurrection
Those who covenant to serve and follow Christ (baptism) = salvation in the Celestial Kingdom and celestial resurrection
Those who live/are willing to live the laws and ordinances established by Christ = exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom

Only those who refuse to accept of Christ's sacrifice will remain in the grave.
But many who don't repent unto baptism will have their sins removed sufficient to become immortal through resurrection.  And that can only happen by accepting Christ's gift.

 

Edited August 13, 2016 by JLHPROF

[waveslider]

2 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Only those who refuse to accept of Christ's sacrifice will remain in the grave.
But many who don't repent unto baptism will have their sins removed sufficient to become immortal through resurrection.  And that can only happen by accepting Christ's gift.

Not so. Those who choose to become perdition, after being born into mortality only changed their mind to not follow Christ anymore. In the pre-Earth life, all who were ever born accepted God's plan, and were blessed with a body, which they get to keep even if they reject that plan after mortality began.

"21  For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."
1 Corinthians 15:21-22

"All," will rise, not just some.

"12  And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13  And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."
Revelation 20:12-14

Note, "..... death and hell deliverd up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every (not some) man according to their works."

"For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts.
D&C 137:9

Again, "All," men not some.

[waveslider]

I forgot one:

"And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."
John 5:29

[thatjimguy]

24 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

If that is why you think Christ came to us, you might want to think again.  Not to break the letter of the law, but to show a better way to follow it.  The law still applied.

I agree 100% about the snickers and prune juice.
But the law dictates that the sacrament be observed, not what is used.

Christ and God became who they are because of obedience to the law, not because they broke them.  They did decry any obsessive pharisaical behavior, but that in no way eliminated the necessity of following the law.

Ignoring a law because of the "spirit vs letter" argument is a quick way down a wrong path.

The wages of sin is death, but we still live because of Christ. I cannot think of more breaking of the law than that. The law of death doesn't apply anymore. Completely broken.

Also, I am not talking about ignoring a law because we feel like it. I am talking about God doing what God wants to do in the manner in which he chooses to do it.

Edited August 13, 2016 by thatjimguy

[waveslider]

I think that there might be a mix up on the term death. There are two types of death. The separation of our spirit from our bodies, and the separation of our spirit from God:

"And this death of which I have spoken, which is the spiritual death, shall deliver up its dead; which spiritual death is hell; wherefore, death and hell must deliver up their dead, and hell must deliver up its captive spirits, and the grave must deliver up its captive bodies, and the bodies and the spirits of men will be restored one to the other; and it is by the power of the resurrection of the Holy One of Israel."
2 Nephi 9:12

[thatjimguy]

10 minutes ago, waveslider said:

I think that there might be a mix up on the term death. There are two types of death. The separation of our spirit from our bodies, and the separation of our spirit from God:

"And this death of which I have spoken, which is the spiritual death, shall deliver up its dead; which spiritual death is hell; wherefore, death and hell must deliver up their dead, and hell must deliver up its captive spirits, and the grave must deliver up its captive bodies, and the bodies and the spirits of men will be restored one to the other; and it is by the power of the resurrection of the Holy One of Israel."
2 Nephi 9:12

I don't think I'm talking of anything different here.