Disciples of Christ or Disciples of Church

[HappyJackWagon]

I had a friend recently ask if modern Mormons are disciples of Christ or disciples of the Church. While I feel this is a false dichotomy it raises an interesting question for me.

The 4th article of faith reads.

Quote

We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

There are many scriptures to support the teaching that having faith in Christ is foundational. There is no real virtue of having faith in any random thing or even putting  trust in "the arm of the flesh". Having faith in something isn't enough. Faith must be placed in Jesus. Pretty basic, right? To me, this means that I hope and trust that Jesus will be the source of my salvation.

But sometimes in the church it feels like Jesus isn't good enough or powerful enough. That in addition to having faith in Him to save, we must also have faith in the church to save; the prophet and apostles, other leaders, the priesthood, ordinances, family history/temple work, obedience to the commandments etc. It's as if Jesus doesn't have power to save except in partnership with the church. To me faith in the church diminishes the everlasting, infinite atonement.

I know many people won't see a difference between faith in Christ and faith in the church but what do you think? Is the church (Institutionally, leadership or members) sometimes guilty of lifting itself up as the saving  entity through affiliation with Jesus instead of relying wholly on Jesus? Should the article of faith read, "first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?" Or is faith in the church implied by the ordinances of Baptism and laying on of hands (presumably only with authority found in the church)?

 

[The Nehor]

Faith in Christ is surrounded by the idea that Christ is the head of the Church and leads and directs it. The commandments and ordinances are the conditions laid out to fully utilize the atonement. 

[ksfisher]

We are taught in the scriptures that "salvation was, and is, and is to come, in and through the atoning blood of Christ" (Mosiah 3:18) and that "there is no name given under heaven save it be this Jesus Christ...whereby man can be saved."  (2 Nephi 25:20)  The scriptures seem pretty plain in this teaching and I believe church leaders today speak with the same plainness.

All the things you've mentioned are good things.

Prophets and apostles teach us the work of God.

Ordinances and temple work have been commanded by God as necessary for our salvation.  Participation in these ordinances are a sign to God that we are "willing to take upon us the name of Christ." (D&C 20:77)

The priesthood is the authority of God, given to man, to act in his name for the salvation of His children.

The church is a community of believers who have made covenants with God and each other, to support and sustain each other through all of life's joys and sorrow. (Mosiah 18:8-10)

The commandments were given by God, to man, because of His desire for us to do reject evil and do good. (D&C 98:11)

All of these things seem worthy of discussion, but we always remember that it is Christ who has atoned for our sins.

 

[CV75]

57 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I had a friend recently ask if modern Mormons are disciples of Christ or disciples of the Church. While I feel this is a false dichotomy it raises an interesting question for me.

I think both kinds of faith have their place, faith in Christ of course being first. One is faith in the Person, the other is faith in His marvelous work and wonder. To have faith in Christ is the first principle, but only in concert with the other principles, which require priesthood keys, can it bring about the "fulness." This means faith in Christ is integral to having faith in anything else He has established. Lacking faith in these things does not promote the "fulness" of faith teh Lord invites us to possess (Ephesians 4:13, D&C 93:18).

[bluebell]

We just had the new teacher training meeting on Sunday and our teacher talked about the training they received at the regional meeting they went to.  He said they were reminded and it was drilled into them that the gospel is about our personal relationship with Christ and not the church.  We come unto Christ not come unto Church (as he said Elder Scott put it a couple years ago) and they were reminded that no one ever should put themselves in a position where they are between someone and Christ.  No priesthood leader and no teacher stands between a person and Christ.

The church is about supporting someone in their relationship with Christ and in providing saving ordinances but our faith must be in Christ.

I thought that was a really good reminder.

[Rivers]

Very good question.

The foundation of our faith should be Christ. (Helaman 5:12)

The church is the body of Christ. We are a body of disciples striving follow the Savior and create Zion.

I can easily worship God and find spirituality by spending time outdoors and reading the scriptures.  But I feel being part of a covenant relationship with God as well as other believers to be essential to worship. 

The priesthood ordinances are expressions of our inner commitment to God and to each other.

 

[rockpond]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Faith in Christ is surrounded by the idea that Christ is the head of the Church and leads and directs it. The commandments and ordinances are the conditions laid out to fully utilize the atonement. 

One can fully utilize the atonement without commandments and ordinances.

[consiglieri]

11 minutes ago, rockpond said:

One can fully utilize the atonement without commandments and ordinances.

I agree.

In fact, commandments and ordinances frequently get in the way of the atonement.

[ksfisher]

9 minutes ago, rockpond said:

One can fully utilize the atonement without commandments and ordinances.

Peter taught otherwise:

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

Acts 2:38

 

This teaching that the ordinances of the gospel are a crucial part of our relationship with God has been reaffirmed by latter- day revelation

19 And this greater priesthood administereth the gospel and holdeth the key of the mysteries of the kingdom, even the key of the knowledge of God.

20 Therefore, in the ordinances thereof, the power of godliness is manifest.

21 And without the ordinances thereof, and the authority of the priesthood, the power of godliness is not manifest unto men in the flesh;

22 For without this no man can see the face of God, even the Father, and live.

D&C 84

[The Nehor]

24 minutes ago, rockpond said:

One can fully utilize the atonement without commandments and ordinances.

Nope. If so Jesus would have known that and focused less on those irrelevant externalities.

[waveslider]

15 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

I agree.

In fact, commandments and ordinances frequently get in the way of the atonement.

How does an outward expression of love towards our Savior get in the way of His atonement? Christ himself said:

"If ye love me, keep my commandments.
John 14:15

If keeping commandments is good enough for Christ to do, then it shouldn't get in the way at all for us to do them as well. Again in the words of Christ himself:

"8  Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
9  As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
10  If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
11  These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
12  This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you."
John 15:8-12

[stemelbow]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Faith in Christ is surrounded by the idea that Christ is the head of the Church and leads and directs it.

I don't think so.  Any non-LDS person can have faith in Christ as it is.  And to be true any LDS person can have faith in Christ and not think Christ is the head of the Church and leads and directs it.  It's an important point I think is often missed in Church.  this past week in Gospel Doctrine, the class spent the hour, basically, commending each other for being members of the Church to be saved.  But the passages in consideration were mostly about having faith in Christ.  The seemingly subtle difference seemed to be lost in all the congratulating. 

Quote

The commandments and ordinances are the conditions laid out to fully utilize the atonement. 

It could be.  But most don't recognized all the commandments and most don't get a sniff of all the ordinances while traipsing around in mortality.  Yet, somehow, we are to suppose, many of them will achieve the highest of heavens.  So either fully utilizing the atonement can be achieved without keeping all the commands and without submitting to each ordinance, or each and every person utilitizes the atonement because in the end all will have the ordinances performed.  Makes Church or membership in it a bit superfluous, either way. 

Edited August 9, 2016 by stemelbow

[stemelbow]

18 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Nope. If so Jesus would have known that and focused less on those irrelevant externalities.

Yep.  this assumes Jesus intended the messages of commandments and ordinances would be had by all those who would be found everlastingly in the Celestial heaven.  But, it seems to me, the message of the gospel, as much as anything, is that those who aren't members of the Church, hey ain't even Christian, can find exaltation as the rest of us.  Yet in all this, we know the atonement is essential for anyone to be graced with Celestial heaven.

[stemelbow]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

We just had the new teacher training meeting on Sunday and our teacher talked about the training they received at the regional meeting they went to.  He said they were reminded and it was drilled into them that the gospel is about our personal relationship with Christ and not the church.  We come unto Christ not come unto Church (as he said Elder Scott put it a couple years ago) and they were reminded that no one ever should put themselves in a position where they are between someone and Christ.  No priesthood leader and no teacher stands between a person and Christ.

The church is about supporting someone in their relationship with Christ and in providing saving ordinances but our faith must be in Christ.

I thought that was a really good reminder.

It's always nice to see the Church trying.  No doubt there is so much further we must go, but steps in the right direction should be commended.  It's a far ways from the trickery the Church pulled back in 1984 with Ronald E. Poelman's talk--which happened to address this topic.

[bluebell]

25 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

It's always nice to see the Church trying.  No doubt there is so much further we must go, but steps in the right direction should be commended.  It's a far ways from the trickery the Church pulled back in 1984 with Ronald E. Poelman's talk--which happened to address this topic.

And these steps in the right direction happened in the early 1990s.  According to our teacher, that's when Elder Scott said those things which were being reiterated.  

[The Nehor]

38 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I don't think so.  Any non-LDS person can have faith in Christ as it is.  And to be true any LDS person can have faith in Christ and not think Christ is the head of the Church and leads and directs it.  It's an important point I think is often missed in Church.  this past week in Gospel Doctrine, the class spent the hour, basically, commending each other for being members of the Church to be saved.  But the passages in consideration were mostly about having faith in Christ.  The seemingly subtle difference seemed to be lost in all the congratulating. 

It could be.  But most don't recognized all the commandments and most don't get a sniff of all the ordinances while traipsing around in mortality.  Yet, somehow, we are to suppose, many of them will achieve the highest of heavens.  So either fully utilizing the atonement can be achieved without keeping all the commands and without submitting to each ordinance, or each and every person utilitizes the atonement because in the end all will have the ordinances performed.  Makes Church or membership in it a bit superfluous, either way. 

Saving faith and by that I mean exalted-style saving requires commandments and ordinances.

Most people do not get the ordinances here but everyone who is exalted will get them. Delivering them is vital and the church is not superfluous because God has plans for everyone to one day get them.

[The Nehor]

33 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

It's always nice to see the Church trying.  No doubt there is so much further we must go, but steps in the right direction should be commended.  It's a far ways from the trickery the Church pulled back in 1984 with Ronald E. Poelman's talk--which happened to address this topic.

How condescending and accusatory while trying to sound conciliatory.

[stemelbow]

4 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Saving faith and by that I mean exalted-style saving requires commandments and ordinances.

Most people do not get the ordinances here but everyone who is exalted will get them. Delivering them is vital and the church is not superfluous because God has plans for everyone to one day get them.

Well everyone gets' them makes membership in the Church today a bit superfluous on this point. A person need not be a member of the Church while traipsing through mortality in order to be exalted. 

[The Nehor]

1 minute ago, stemelbow said:

Well everyone gets' them makes membership in the Church today a bit superfluous on this point. A person need not be a member of the Church while traipsing through mortality in order to be exalted. 

But one must be at some point so why not now?

[stemelbow]

1 minute ago, The Nehor said:

How condescending and accusatory while trying to sound conciliatory.

How defensive while trying to sound like you have a point. 

I thought we'd all agree that the Church's trickery to change Elder Poelman's talk, which addressed this topic, was problematic.  But I guess to some the changing and trickery never was. 

If you say so, the Nehor. 

[stemelbow]

1 minute ago, The Nehor said:

But one must be at some point so why not now?

Beats me.  We should ask God why the 99% plus of humans need not be now?  Maybe they are members by virtue of them getting the ordinances performed on their behalf at some future day.  But if all are, in that sense, then it matter not whether we are members or not--thus superfluous. 

[The Nehor]

3 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

How defensive while trying to sound like you have a point. 

I thought we'd all agree that the Church's trickery to change Elder Poelman's talk, which addressed this topic, was problematic.  But I guess to some the changing and trickery never was. 

If you say so, the Nehor. 

I would not agree.

[The Nehor]

1 minute ago, stemelbow said:

Beats me.  We should ask God why the 99% plus of humans need not be now?  Maybe they are members by virtue of them getting the ordinances performed on their behalf at some future day.  But if all are, in that sense, then it matter not whether we are members or not--thus superfluous. 

No, because things matter. It matters a lot whether I have the blessings attached to the ordinances now or later.

[stemelbow]

8 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

No, because things matter. It matters a lot whether I have the blessings attached to the ordinances now or later.

Maybe to you.  But to God it might not.  he probably will not see a difference between you, if you are exalted, and he who lived in 1015 on Easter Island and is also exalted. 

[The Nehor]

2 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Maybe to you.  But to God it might not.  he probably will not see a difference between you, if you are exalted, and he who lived in 1015 on Easter Island and is also exalted. 

If you assume that the exalted are a homogenous crowd of duplicates. I do not.