BYU now a target for LGBT groups

[Sky]

I realize that the LGBTQ community is upset with the LDS Church in many ways.  I acknowledge their hurt.  But this seems taking it too far.  It reeks of religious discrimination and pressure to conform to societal norms.  BYU is ultimately a private institution owned by a religious organization that opposes same-gender sexual relationships on religious grounds.   

Now it looks like this could cost BYU its sports program.

http://sportsday.dallasnews.com/college-sports/collegesports/2016/08/08/sources-big-12-presidents-growing-uneasy-byu-expansion-candidate-honor-codelgbt-issues

Edited to add this article:

http://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/17251009/big-12-urged-lgbt-advocacy-groups-not-admit-byu-expansion-school  

Edited August 9, 2016 by Sky

[Kenngo1969]

The positions of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints on marriage and on sex outside of marriage, respectively, may cost BYU dearly with respect to its aspirations of joining a so-called "Power 5" conference.  If so, it's simply a(nother) manifestation of Matthew 5 coming to pass.  I haven't read the link yet, but I don't see where it could cost the university its athletic program in toto.  Worst case scenario, BYU remains independent in football for the foreseeable future and maintains its membership in the West Coast Conference for other sports.  However, if I'm wrong, "Blessed are ye when men shall revile your sports programs and persecute you, for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you."

[Thinking]

So the Big 12 shouldn't be allowed to exclude a school from joining its conference even though that school excludes students that the other conference members accept?

Edited August 9, 2016 by Thinking

[Hamba Tuhan]

I could be mistaken, but I haven't really seen any evidence that the 'LGBTQ' juggernaut is too upset over people losing their rights to 'oppose same-gender sexual relationships' on any grounds, religious or otherwise. I think, in fact, that that may be the very point.

[USU78]

6 hours ago, Sky said:

I realize that the LGBTQ community is upset with the LDS Church in many ways.  I acknowledge their hurt.  But this seems taking it too far.  It reeks of religious discrimination and pressure to conform to societal norms.  BYU is ultimately a private institution owned by a religious organization that opposes same-gender sexual relationships on religious grounds.   

Now it looks like this could cost BYU its sports program.

http://sportsday.dallasnews.com/college-sports/collegesports/2016/08/08/sources-big-12-presidents-growing-uneasy-byu-expansion-candidate-honor-codelgbt-issues

Of course it's religious discrimination. That's what these folks are all about. They want everyone to kowtow and accept the Mark of the Beast,

[JLHPROF]

5 hours ago, Thinking said:

So the Big 12 shouldn't be allowed to exclude a school from joining its conference even though that school excludes students that the other conference members accept?

 

12 minutes ago, USU78 said:

Of course it's religious discrimination. That's what these folks are all about. They want everyone to kowtow and accept the Mark of the Beast,

Membership in any organization is based on the rules of that organization.  If an organization does not allow members who discriminate against LGBT people then they have every right to exclude members that would.
Doesn't mean BYU is wrong, but they may not meet the organization's rules for membership.

[HappyJackWagon]

9 minutes ago, USU78 said:

Of course it's religious discrimination. That's what these folks are all about. They want everyone to kowtow and accept the Mark of the Beast,

So they're discriminating against the religion that is discriminating against them? It's hard for me to get too upset about that. It's kind of understandable, isn't it. If you discriminate against me, I'll discriminate against you. I'm not saying it's ideal, but I can at least empathize instead of vilify.

Quote

Sky- BYU is ultimately a private institution owned by a religious organization that opposes same-gender sexual relationships on religious grounds.

I fixed it for you. Part of the problem is that BYU's policy about the law of chastity is different for same-gender than it is for hetero relationships. BYU's policy is not only against sxual relationships, but ANY kind of physical relationship. Therefore, hetero couples can hold hands, put their arms around each other, kiss, while same-gender couples cannot. LGBT activists see this disparity as discriminatory. Of course they are right. It is. The only real question is whether or not BYU is justified in their discrimination. People will disagree but BYU doesn't do itself any favors by crying discrimination from the people they're discriminating against.

[HappyJackWagon]

From the BYU policy...

Quote

One’s stated same-gender attraction is not an Honor Code issue. However, the Honor Code requires all members of the university community to manifest a strict commitment to the law of chastity. Homosexual behavior is inappropriate and violates the Honor Code. Homosexual behavior includes not only sexual relations between members of the same sex, but all forms of physical intimacy that give expression to homosexual feelings.

Is there any question that there is a double standard. It's not just about the law of chastity. The policy goes far beyond that.

Scroll down to H0mosxual behavior to read the full policy. https://policy.byu.edu/view/index.php?p=26&s=s1164

[Gray]

I don't care about football, but wouldn't it would be a pretty scandal if a big 12 school didn't allow black students to attend? What's the difference between that and BYU's policy?

[Hamba Tuhan]

4 minutes ago, Gray said:

I don't care about football, but wouldn't it would be a pretty scandal if a big 12 school didn't allow black students to attend? What's the difference between that and BYU's policy?

BYU doesn't allow students who drink alcohol to attend either. What's the difference between that and not allowing Black students? Answer that question honestly, and you'll be on the brink of understanding.

[Five Solas]

12 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

BYU doesn't allow students who drink alcohol to attend either. What's the difference between that and not allowing Black students? Answer that question honestly, and you'll be on the brink of understanding.

Is it an honest question?  Does someone choose his/her sexual attraction any more/less than someone chooses the color of his/her skin (the late Michael Jackson's example notwithstanding)? 

--Erik

[Gray]

18 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

BYU doesn't allow students who drink alcohol to attend either. What's the difference between that and not allowing Black students? Answer that question honestly, and you'll be on the brink of understanding.

Drinking alcohol is not an identity, unless you're "Bluto" Blutarsky.

Seriously though, there is a difference though between banning the use of alcohol and banning gay people from being gay. It would be like accepting black students so long as they don't do anything "black." There would be a national scandal. And that's what's going to happen here too, with the religious schools that continue to treat gay students differently from straight students. People are waking up to the nature of this kind of discrimination, and there is less and less tolerance for it. 

Edited August 9, 2016 by Gray

[HappyJackWagon]

26 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

BYU doesn't allow students who drink alcohol to attend either. What's the difference between that and not allowing Black students? Answer that question honestly, and you'll be on the brink of understanding.

Gray is right in his response (and the Bluto comment was gold).

Your example would work better if we described it as a school ban on alcohol but for a few students they also weren't able to drink caffeine either. The restrictions are not equal and discriminatory.

[CV75]

7 hours ago, Sky said:

I realize that the LGBTQ community is upset with the LDS Church in many ways.  I acknowledge their hurt.  But this seems taking it too far.  It reeks of religious discrimination and pressure to conform to societal norms.  BYU is ultimately a private institution owned by a religious organization that opposes same-gender sexual relationships on religious grounds.   

Now it looks like this could cost BYU its sports program.

http://sportsday.dallasnews.com/college-sports/collegesports/2016/08/08/sources-big-12-presidents-growing-uneasy-byu-expansion-candidate-honor-codelgbt-issues

At best it reflects a misunderstanding of the role of special constitutional protections for the freedom of religion in relation to anti-discrimination laws for protected classes that are deemed to be constitutional.

[stemelbow]

7 hours ago, Sky said:

I realize that the LGBTQ community is upset with the LDS Church in many ways.  I acknowledge their hurt.  But this seems taking it too far.  It reeks of religious discrimination and pressure to conform to societal norms.  BYU is ultimately a private institution owned by a religious organization that opposes same-gender sexual relationships on religious grounds.   

Now it looks like this could cost BYU its sports program.

http://sportsday.dallasnews.com/college-sports/collegesports/2016/08/08/sources-big-12-presidents-growing-uneasy-byu-expansion-candidate-honor-codelgbt-issues

It might cost BYU a power 5 conference.  It won't lose it's sports program--which in football may, in effect, lower it's ability to compete nationally (which means it'd remain on the national scene about where it is).  Of course BYU"s discrimination on this may cause it's football program to lose credibility as the years go on--people are already seeing BYU's discrimination as untenable. Somehow BYU made it through the discriminations back in the 60s and 70s.  I'm kind of amazed BYU seemingly got such a slight slap on the wrist for the religions continued discrimination.  But that discrimination officially stopped eventually (I mean way eventually).  

As has been said, if BYU wants to discriminate, then be ready to be discriminated against.  My parents in law were at BYU back in the 70s when protests against MOrmonism's racial discrimination was in effect.  They've spoken of feeling imbittered by the institution for suggesting they are losing religious freedom.  Little did they seem to realize that they were being protested against for their own discrimination.  Of course the story from my mother-in-law is her and her friends cried out in frustration when the priesthood ban was lifted.  of course that was their reaction while apparently all other Mormons cried in sheer happiness.  But they have to get over it because they have mixed-race grandkids. 

[stemelbow]

53 minutes ago, Gray said:

I don't care about football, but wouldn't it would be a pretty scandal if a big 12 school didn't allow black students to attend? What's the difference between that and BYU's policy?

You don't care about football?  I'm the sports nut, which I view as a handicap.  my mind doesn't compute how someone doesn't care about sports.  Ah well....you're contributions belie a notion that you are completely insane, so I'll get over it. 

I absolutely love college football.  I always want local programs to be successful (Utah born and raised).  I'd love BYU to get in to a power 5 conference, but I think it won't happen and BYU football will sink further into obscurity.  I will say if BYU can get into a power 5 conference it'll be the Big 12.  Out of all the major conferences I think it is the only one that can possibly consider BYU.  With that said, I'm not counting them out, quite yet. 

[Gray]

12 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

You don't care about football?  I'm the sports nut, which I view as a handicap.  my mind doesn't compute how someone doesn't care about sports.  Ah well....you're contributions belie a notion that you are completely insane, so I'll get over it. 

I absolutely love college football.  I always want local programs to be successful (Utah born and raised).  I'd love BYU to get in to a power 5 conference, but I think it won't happen and BYU football will sink further into obscurity.  I will say if BYU can get into a power 5 conference it'll be the Big 12.  Out of all the major conferences I think it is the only one that can possibly consider BYU.  With that said, I'm not counting them out, quite yet. 

Yeah, I'm just not a sports guy. I tried to care, but couldn't do it. *ducks*

[california boy]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

BYU doesn't allow students who drink alcohol to attend either. What's the difference between that and not allowing Black students? Answer that question honestly, and you'll be on the brink of understanding.

Now I get it. This explains why I am only gay when I go to a party on Friday night and someone spikes the punch with gayness. If it wasn't for that, I would be perfectly straight.  

At at least those who drink alcohol at BYU can hold an empty glass. Gay students get kicked out of BYU just for holding hands.  Yeah. I can see why being gay is just like drinking alcohol

[rodheadlee]

So Baylor and TCU accept LGBT with open arms?

[stemelbow]

2 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

So Baylor and TCU accept LGBT with open arms?

This may get BYU in, if they don't.  There's still hope BYU fans.

[Johnnie Cake]

BYU and the Church are entitled to their respective Standards and Honor Code...no one is taking those away from them.  But what they are not immune from are the consequences of their honor code.  Society has moved on, BYU and the church have chosen not to and that's just fine...they don't need to...but its kind of silly for BYU to believe that there won't be consequences for holding to a standard that society has rejected.

Society has a way of holding those who refuse to adapt to the societal evolutionary curve accountable and should the Big 12 not extend an invitation to BYU...I would suggest that the Y just get use to it because it won't be the last time that BYU will pay a price for holding firm to their Honor Code.  But just imagine all the mileage within the church that BYU will get out of playing the persecution card.  Its really a win win situation isn't it?

Edited August 9, 2016 by Johnnie Cake

[HappyJackWagon]

4 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

So Baylor and TCU accept LGBT with open arms?

Good point. I was curious so I looked up Baylor's policy. BYU is not alone in its discrimination against LGBT. Looks like at least Baylor is in the same boat. But is the argument for LGBT discrimination supposed to be "But the other kids are doing it"?

Quote

Baylor University welcomes all students into a safe and supportive environment in which to discuss and learn about a variety of issues, including those of human sexuality. The University affirms the biblical understanding of sexuality as a gift from God. Christian churches across the ages and around the world have affirmed purity in singleness and fidelity in marriage between a man and a woman as the biblical norm. Temptations to deviate from this norm include both heterosexual sex outside of marriage and homosexual behavior. It is thus expected that Baylor students will not participate in advocacy groups which promote understandings of sexuality that are contrary to biblical teaching.

So it seems like you'd be arguing for the LGBT activist groups to also target Baylor, right? It would be consistent and I wouldn't oppose them.

[stemelbow]

3 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Good point. I was curious so I looked up Baylor's policy. BYU is not alone in its discrimination against LGBT. Looks like at least Baylor is in the same boat. But is the argument for LGBT discrimination supposed to be "But the other kids are doing it"?

So it seems like you'd be arguing for the LGBT activist groups to also target Baylor, right? It would be consistent and I wouldn't oppose them.

I think the point is, if they are opposed to BYU joining the conference for BYU having a similar policy as Baylor and they do not voice concern about Baylor, well, there's a problem.  Of course maybe Baylor doesn't enforce the policy, which may mean something. 

[jkwilliams]

28 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

So Baylor and TCU accept LGBT with open arms?

Baylor has revised their policy as of 2014:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2015/07/08/why-baylor-universitys-sexual-conduct-policy-no-longer-calls-out-homosexual-acts/

TCU, on the other hand, had proposed designated LGBT housing on campus, which I don't think would fly at BYU, would it?

As a BYU alumnus and BYU sports fan, this kind of stuff is dismaying, but it's not surprising. I don't see these actions as religious discrimination but an understandable protest against university policies, which last I checked, were not church doctrine or scripture. It's not much different from the protests against BYU in the 1960s and 1970s because of the priesthood ban. If anything, the priesthood ban was an actual church doctrine that had no policy implementation at BYU, so perhaps this latest protest is less religious discrimination than the earlier protests were. 

I don't know what the answer is for BYU. If the honor code was the same for straight and gay students, there wouldn't be a problem. I really was hoping BYU would be invited to join the Big 12, but I think that's extremely unlikely. Maybe the church should just get out of sports altogether, as they did at BYU-Idaho.

Edited August 9, 2016 by jkwilliams

[Johnnie Cake]

5 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I think the point is, if they are opposed to BYU joining the conference for BYU having a similar policy as Baylor and they do not voice concern about Baylor, well, there's a problem.  Of course maybe Baylor doesn't enforce the policy, which may mean something. 

Agreed...fair is fair, however...according to a USA today article Baylor has changed its policy

Quote

Earlier this year, Baylor University made a discreet change to its sexual misconduct policy by removing a line regarding “homosexual acts.” While some may see this as a small step toward equality at the world’s largest Baptist school, the university has not expressed their approval of gay and lesbian couples.

The school’s 2007 policy said certain actions — including sexual abuse, sexual harassment, sexual assault, incest, adultery, fornication and homosexual acts — could prompt disciplinary action.

But on May 15, 2015, the school’s board of regents endorsed a different policy that does not mention homosexuality — or any act of sexual misconduct — explicitly.

 

Edited August 9, 2016 by Johnnie Cake