Missionaries detained by police

[jkwilliams]

https://www.elheraldodechihuahua.com.mx/noroeste/8555-detienen-a-misioneros-por-desnudar-a-ninos-para-bautizarlos

According to the article, they told 3 kids they would give them candy, soda, and chips if they got baptized, apparently without the parents' permission. When asked to change into baptismal clothes, the kids got scared and told their father, who called the police.

The headline is pretty sensationalistic, emphasizing that the kids were told to take off their clothes, but it seems these missionaries may have been breaking mission rules to get their numbers. This was a big problem in my mission because making your weekly and monthly goals often trumped everything else. 

Edited June 15, 2016 by jkwilliams

[smac97]

On 6/11/2016 at 3:28 PM, jkwilliams said:

https://www.elheraldodechihuahua.com.mx/noroeste/8555-detienen-a-misioneros-por-desnudar-a-ninos-para-bautizarlos

According to the article, they told 3 kids they would give them candy, soda, and chips if they got baptized, apparently without the parents' permission. When asked to change into baptismal clothes, the kids got scared and told their father, who called the police.

The headline is pretty sensationalistic, emphasizing that the kids were told to take off their clothes, but it seems these missionaries may have been breaking mission rules to get their numbers. This was a big problem in my mission because making your weekly and monthly goals often trumped everything else. 

Here's a Google translation of the article:

Quote

Cuauhtémoc.- Four young missionaries of the Mormon Church were arrested by police officers Sectional Anahuac, after participating in a connato of quarrel with a father family man who enraged claimed them why they wanted to baptize their three children requiring them to be take off clothes to bring them a robe, in addition to said were taken without their consent to the temple deceptions based offering candy, chips and sodas.

Commander of preventive corporation, César Estrada Ruiz, said that while the missionaries of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints were arrested and taken to the police station by the altercation, then they came to be as presented .

I said it was at 8:15 pm last Thursday when Felix Gabriel de la Peña reported that in the temple located in the Ejido and Fourth streets, just a block from where the command is located, had an altercation with young that according to the testimony of his three sons aged 9 and 11 years old had denounced him they were asked to take off their clothes to bring them attire gown and baptize, "that was the procedure for such religious act".

The three children, frightened fled and reported it immediately to his father, whom also they explained that conditioned to go because they offered them candy, chips and sodas, but then had to be left "baptize" with the conditioning of undressing in where they had a room and also put some robes.

I suspect we're not getting the whole story.  How many people would have to be in on this scam in order for this story to hold true?  The kids would have to be interviewed, they'd have to attend the local church meetings, they'd have to meet the local bishop and some members of the local congregation, the baptism would be performed during a formalized service (which I doubt would be scheduled to take place at 8:15 p.m., or would be spur-of-the-moment or spontaneously scheduled as intimated in the article), and so on.

It is also my understanding that the Church requires parental authorization for baptisms of minors.

Plus, there were four missionaries involved (four were arrested, anyway).  All four went along with this plan?  None of them had any qualms about violating the Church's missionary rules and guidelines six ways from Sunday?  All four were apparently fine with seemingly predatory behavior against small children (luring them "candy, chips and sodas" and coercing them to "undress" into "robes" for the baptism)?  None of them thought to call the ZL or the AP or the Mission President?  The described behavior is bizarre.  Extreme.  Far out of the ordinary.

The article also states that "they wanted to baptize their three children requiring them to be take off clothes to bring them a robe" ("porqué querían bautizar a sus tres hijos  exigiéndoles que se quitaran la ropa para ponerles una bata").  I do not speak Spanish, but "bata" apparently means "robe" or "housecoat" or "dressing gown," none of which sounds like the one-piece "jumpsuit"-style baptismal clothes that are apparently ubiquitously used in LDS baptisms.

Yeah, I don't think we're getting the whole story.  At all.

Thanks,

-Smac

[jkwilliams]

2 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Here's a Google translation of the article:

I suspect we're not getting the whole story.  How many people would have to be in on this scam in order for this story to hold true?  The kids would have to be interviewed, they'd have to attend the local church meetings, they'd have to meet the local bishop and some members of the local congregation, the baptism would be performed during a formalized service (which I doubt would be scheduled to take place at 8:15 p.m., or would be spur-of-the-moment or spontaneously scheduled as intimated in the article), and so on.

It is also my understanding that the Church requires parental authorization for baptisms of minors.

Plus, there were four missionaries involved (four were arrested, anyway).  All four went along with this plan?  None of them had any qualms about violating the Church's missionary rules and guidelines six ways from Sunday?  All four were apparently fine with seemingly predatory behavior against small children (luring them "candy, chips and sodas" and coercing them to "undress" into "robes" for the baptism)?  None of them thought to call the ZL or the AP or the Mission President?  The described behavior is bizarre.  Extreme.  Far out of the ordinary.

The article also states that "they wanted to baptize their three children requiring them to be take off clothes to bring them a robe" ("porqué querían bautizar a sus tres hijos  exigiéndoles que se quitaran la ropa para ponerles una bata").  I do not speak Spanish, but "bata" apparently means "robe" or "housecoat" or "dressing gown," none of which sounds like the one-piece "jumpsuit"-style baptismal clothes that are apparently ubiquitously used in LDS baptisms.

Yeah, I don't think we're getting the whole story.  At all.

Thanks,

-Smac

I'm guessing you didn't serve a mission in Latin America, where what you call a "scam" is pretty commonplace. In my mission, a missionary in my zone had 27 baptisms on a single Sunday. Some kids had been playing volleyball at the church, and he told them they couldn't play there unless they were baptized. 

The problem, IMO, is the pressure to produce numbers, and kids are easy to baptize. There were plenty of DLs, ZLs, and local leaders who would go along with stuff like that. 

[SteveO]

Just now, jkwilliams said:

I'm guessing you didn't serve a mission in Latin America, where what you call a "scam" is pretty commonplace. In my mission, a missionary in my zone had 27 baptisms on a single Sunday. Some kids had been playing volleyball at the church, and he told them they couldn't play there unless they were baptized. 

The problem, IMO, is the pressure to produce numbers, and kids are easy to baptize. There were plenty of DLs, ZLs, and local leaders who would go along with stuff like that. 

I was about to say the same thing.  I was in Mexico City...we measured our retention rates by priesthood ordinations.  My zone had a lot of baptisms, but the mission president wanted to see the ordinations because the "quality" of new converts had been found wanting.  The kind of converts my zone had been bringing in were of the sort that couldn't/wouldn't last till the following week to be ordained--the local bishops weren't happy with us so they refused to ordain the converts anywhere besides the chapel--to show that they were committed to their new membership.  Like I said, many would never return to church after baptism, so our zone leaders would go to the homes of the converts, ordain them, and forge the bishop's signature.

I told the mission president what was going on at the next zone conference...I was told my mission was a facade, that I was making excuses for my own shortcomings, that I was lazy, critical of leadership, eye...I ended my mission as junior companion because of that.  There's a lot of not great things that go on in the mission. It really depends on the type of mission president the mission has.

[JAHS]

12 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I'm guessing you didn't serve a mission in Latin America, where what you call a "scam" is pretty commonplace. In my mission, a missionary in my zone had 27 baptisms on a single Sunday. Some kids had been playing volleyball at the church, and he told them they couldn't play there unless they were baptized. 

The problem, IMO, is the pressure to produce numbers, and kids are easy to baptize. There were plenty of DLs, ZLs, and local leaders who would go along with stuff like that. 

When was this?

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, SteveO said:

I was about to say the same thing.  I was in Mexico City...we measured our retention rates by priesthood ordinations.  My zone had a lot of baptisms, but the mission president wanted to see the ordinations because the "quality" of new converts had been found wanting.  The kind of converts my zone had been bringing in were of the sort that couldn't/wouldn't last till the following week to be ordained--the local bishops weren't happy with us so they refused to ordain the converts anywhere besides the chapel--to show that they were committed to their new membership.  Like I said, many would never return to church after baptism, so our zone leaders would go to the homes of the converts, ordain them, and forge the bishop's signature.

I told the mission president what was going on at the next zone conference...I was told my mission was a facade, that I was making excuses for my own shortcomings, that I was lazy, critical of leadership, eye...I ended my mission as junior companion because of that.  There's a lot of not great things that go on in the mission. It really depends on the type of mission president the mission has.

Yep. My mission president set a goal once of 1,000 baptisms in a single month. We baptized 960 IIRC, but it was mostly through this so-called scam behavior. 

Sorry you got dumped on for speaking up. Once when I was DL, I interviewed some people for baptism, and they didn't know who Joseph Smith was, didn't know about tithing, the Word of Wisdom, or the Book of Mormon. I told the missionaries they weren't ready, so the elders went to the branch president, who approved the baptisms. 

[jkwilliams]

8 minutes ago, JAHS said:

When was this?

1980s. Unfortunately I have heard from missionaries returning from Latin America that things have not changed much. One of my son's friends told me that his mission in Paraguay was all about numbers, and the missionaries did whatever was needed to make the numbers. 

Edited June 11, 2016 by jkwilliams

[SteveO]

10 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Yep. My mission president set a goal once of 1,000 baptisms in a single month. We baptized 960 IIRC, but it was mostly through this so-called scam behavior. 

Sorry you got dumped on for speaking up. Once when I was DL, I interviewed some people for baptism, and they didn't know who Joseph Smith was, didn't know about tithing, the Word of Wisdom, or the Book of Mormon. I told the missionaries they weren't ready, so the elders went to the branch president, who approved the baptisms. 

It is the one aspect of the church I am unreservedly critical of--the missionary program.  I am convinced that a lot (not all) of the missionaries that return and go inactive are the ones that have become disillusioned from the "scam-behavior".  I know I really struggled when I came home for a while afterwards.  

 

 

[jkwilliams]

Just now, SteveO said:

It is the one aspect of the church I am unreservedly critical of--the missionary program.  I am convinced that a lot (not all) of the missionaries that return and go inactive are the ones that have become disillusioned from the "scam-behavior".  I know I really struggled when I came home for a while afterwards.  

My son's friend told me that he came home pretty disillusioned with the missionary program, but when he tried to talk to his parents, they dismissed his concerns. He said he felt relieved he could talk to me because I had been through a very similar experience. 

[JAHS]

25 minutes ago, SteveO said:

It is the one aspect of the church I am unreservedly critical of--the missionary program.  I am convinced that a lot (not all) of the missionaries that return and go inactive are the ones that have become disillusioned from the "scam-behavior".  I know I really struggled when I came home for a while afterwards.  

If this is really still happening now, church authorities need to be made aware of it and come down hard on those mission presidents who allow or ignore it.

[jkwilliams]

12 minutes ago, JAHS said:

If this is really still happening now, church authorities need to be made aware of it and come down hard on those mission presidents who allow or ignore it.

I have no idea how to respond to this. It's a systemic problem and has been for many years. I would be shocked if "church authorities" weren't aware of it. 

I'm not saying church leaders condone this kind of thing but that there is a lot of pressure to baptize and many ways to get around the rules. It happens all the time, and the only time a red flag would appear would be when it becomes publicly known, like this incident. 

Edited June 12, 2016 by jkwilliams

[Hamba Tuhan]

I served a full-time mission in the 1990s, have twice been a ward mission leader (including as my current calling), have served as a branch missionary, and have worked closely with the full-time missionaries in many other capacities since my mission. I have never before encountered what has been described in this thread. Does it happen? I have no reason to doubt that it does. Is it 'systemic'? Not anywhere that I have ever lived/served. Should Church leaders 'come down hard' on it? Absolutely! And I have no doubts whatsoever that our area presidency would.

Edited June 12, 2016 by Hamba Tuhan

[UtahTexan]

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

1980s. Unfortunately I have heard from missionaries returning from Latin America that things have not changed much. One of my son's friends told me that his mission in Paraguay was all about numbers, and the missionaries did whatever was needed to make the numbers. 

Yeah...I served in Honduras in the 1980s...it was nothing like that.......it was clean and above-board.  And I always suspect anyone who says, "someone's friend said....." ....there is nothing like more than one generation of heresay......

Edited June 12, 2016 by CountryBoy

[jkwilliams]

4 minutes ago, CountryBoy said:

Yeah...I served in Honduras in the 1980s...it was nothing like that.......it was clean and above-board.  And I always suspect anyone who says, "someone's friend said....." ....there is nothing like more than one generation of heresay......

You weren't in my mission, obviously. As for the hearsay, I have no reason to doubt what my son's friend told me directly, or the other young men who told me it was pretty similar in their missions in Bolivia, Peru, and Chile. 

I suppose they and I could be making it all up.

[jkwilliams]

I should mention that in our mission, the practice of seeking out children and baptizing them with or without parental permission was called "baby baps."

[VideoGameJunkie]

No wonder the number of Mormons is 15 million, but active is only around 5 million.

[jkwilliams]

6 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

No wonder the number of Mormons is 15 million, but active is only around 5 million.

I'm pretty sure it's the push for numbers that explains the dismal activity rates in Latin America. 

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

I'm guessing you didn't serve a mission in Latin America, where what you call a "scam" is pretty commonplace. In my mission, a missionary in my zone had 27 baptisms on a single Sunday. Some kids had been playing volleyball at the church, and he told them they couldn't play there unless they were baptized. 

The problem, IMO, is the pressure to produce numbers, and kids are easy to baptize. There were plenty of DLs, ZLs, and local leaders who would go along with stuff like that. 

Even so, it sounds very bizarre.  I know missionaries who have served in Latin America (including recent returnees) and currently know some Latin American students here in Provo.  They would think this very bizarre as well, and would not tolerate it in their jurisdictions or Latino home wards.  Yet you say that such scams are "pretty commonplace."  This bears further inquiry to determine whether in fact it is all that commonplace.

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Even so, it sounds very bizarre.  I know missionaries who have served in Latin America (including recent returnees) and currently know some Latin American students here in Provo.  They would think this very bizarre as well, and would not tolerate it in their jurisdictions or Latino home wards.  Yet you say that such scams are "pretty commonplace."  This bears further inquiry to determine whether in fact it is all that commonplace.

Well, I can only go on my experience and what I've heard from quite a few recently returned missionaries. It was definitely commonplace in my mission, which is why the story, though sensationalized, didn't surprise me  

The other term in my mission for it was "kiddie baps." When 200 missionaries are told to get 1,000 baptisms in a single month, these things happen. 

[Peppermint Patty]

1 hour ago, JAHS said:

If this is really still happening now, church authorities need to be made aware of it and come down hard on those mission presidents who allow or ignore it.

Elder Oaks was made aware of this behavior several years ago and even held a special conference for Mission Presidents:  http://mormonstories.org/mormon-stories-podcast-001-kiddie-bapsmy-mission-experience-in-guatemala/

It sounds like another special conference might be needed.

[SteveO]

14 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Even so, it sounds very bizarre.  I know missionaries who have served in Latin America (including recent returnees) and currently know some Latin American students here in Provo.  They would think this very bizarre as well, and would not tolerate it in their jurisdictions or Latino home wards.  Yet you say that such scams are "pretty commonplace."  This bears further inquiry to determine whether in fact it is all that commonplace.

I always find it odd how everyone had "that companion" on the mission--yet no one is ever "that companion" when they're swapping mission stories or giving their talks in sacrament meetings...it was that way in the army too--nobody was ever the screw up when swapping stories.  People always embellish their achievements and rarely are eager to share their own shortcomings and mistakes. Anyways, I believe missions can change on a dime once a new mission president gets in.  It really depends on what his policies are and his approach to the work.  

Edited June 12, 2016 by SteveO

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Peppermint Patty said:

Elder Oaks was made aware of this behavior several years ago and even held a special conference for Mission Presidents:  http://mormonstories.org/mormon-stories-podcast-001-kiddie-bapsmy-mission-experience-in-guatemala/

It sounds like another special conference might be needed.

Heh. They called them kiddie baps in Guatemala, too. 

[jkwilliams]

2 minutes ago, SteveO said:

I always find it odd how everyone had "that companion" on the mission--yet no one is ever "that companion" when they're swapping mission stories or giving their talks in sacrament meetings...it was that way in the army too--nobody was ever the screw up when swapping stories.  People always embellish their achievements and rarely are eager to share their own shortcomings and mistakes. Anyways, I believe missions can change on a dime once a new mission president gets in.  It really depends on what his policies are and his approach to the work.  

Agreed. The problem is that missionaries and mission presidents will never get in trouble for baptizing too much. As long as there is pressure to produce, there is incentive to bend or break the rules. 

[Jeanne]

I have to say that if there is any truth to all of this..it really makes my stomach turn.  I have heard of this before from return missionaries who have left the church.  I just can't grasp the thought that this could be a part of the church that i grew up  in and trusted.  Granted, we are just talking a few people/missions here.  My cousin, was a sister missionary in the 60's when they had to take "sales" classes and make cold calls by going through telephone books.  This was just in California..but the stress that she had about the numbers and baptisms really did a number on her.  She would sit in the closet in the apartment and just cry.

[SteveO]

10 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I have to say that if there is any truth to all of this..it really makes my stomach turn.  I have heard of this before from return missionaries who have left the church.  I just can't grasp the thought that this could be a part of the church that i grew up  in and trusted.  Granted, we are just talking a few people/missions here.  My cousin, was a sister missionary in the 60's when they had to take "sales" classes and make cold calls by going through telephone books.  This was just in California..but the stress that she had about the numbers and baptisms really did a number on her.  She would sit in the closet in the apartment and just cry.

I just want to reiterate: it really depends on the president.  My little brother served in Chile, and they had the same type of problem--high baptisms, horrific activity rates of new members.  A new president came in half way through his mission and one of the policies he made was that investigators had to attend church 3 weeks in a row before baptism.  One missed week and the requirement would reset.  Baptisms plummeted--but my brother will tell you that all his active converts that keep in contact with him are from the second half of the mission.  BUT, 19-21 year old missionaries doing stupid things is to be expected, and if the president is jacked up about the numbers, that will inevitably trickle down to zone and district leaders.