How to communicate love to LGBT members?

[stemelbow]

3 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said:

I think herein lies part of the problem. In my personal life I don't have the need (nor the authority) to go around telling LGBT folks that they are sinners. But what about at Church? What about for those who have priesthood and ministerial duties to God to preach repentance, including to LGBTs? Especially when the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the Kingdom of God on Earth and its leaders (and missionaries) have a sacred obligation to preach repentance to all of the world, and not just faithful Latter-day Saints or to "audiences who were receptive and happy to listen." Is there no way to do so, without being called unloving?

Can the Church be a loving place for such? I believe that it can, but what say you?

I would say sure.  But there's a way to convey these messages.  People whom you interact with get impressions from you.  SO if they think you are being unloving, it might be wise to try and figure out why they have that impression.  It might be many things, and sure, it's possible their feeling of you not loving them may not be your fault at all.  But, I still maintain the best approach in life is to always re-examine the way I do things rather than blame others. 

A good counter example I think might be, protesters at conference or other LDS events.  LDS who notice them do so in pity or with indifference it seems like.  It's not so much their message, although that's part of it, but the way they go about it.  When you show up at people's doors and say you are there on behalf of the Church, it's very important, I've learned to not lead in with "come back to Church" and repent.  You should learn who they are.  People don't feel love from strangers, or near strangers, who show up at their doorstep fulfilling a Church obligation.  Such Church goers aren't full of love for others so much as love for self, as they seek to build themselves up in the Church. 

[thesometimesaint]

28 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said:

Do you assume I don't?

No.

[Eek!]

Our behaviors arise from our beliefs.  Through willpower we can force ourselves to behave in a way that is inconsistent with our beliefs, but that entails great effort.   There is a better way.  

We communicate what we believe, unless we are very good at practicing deception.   So if we truly wish to communicate love, then maybe we should make an open-minded examination of our beliefs for anything that is a barrier to love. 

Edited June 6, 2016 by Eek!

[Daniel2]

25 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said:

I think herein lies part of the problem. In my personal life I don't have the need (nor the authority) to go around telling LGBT folks that they are sinners. But what about at Church? What about for those who have priesthood and ministerial duties to God to preach repentance, including to LGBTs? Especially when the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the Kingdom of God on Earth and its leaders (and missionaries) have a sacred obligation to preach repentance to all of the world, and not just faithful Latter-day Saints or to "audiences who were receptive and happy to listen." Is there no way to do so, without being called unloving?

Can the Church be a loving place for such? I believe that it can, but what say you?

I agree... at church gatherings, it's entirely appropriate to promote the views and doctrines of the church during lessons, leader-led group discussions, and talks addressing the subject with as much tact, compassion, and love as LDS leadership has called for (specifically, as outlined on their official church website of www.mormonsandgays.com the tone of which, IMO, isn't emulated as often as I would hope it would be, at least here on the board).

I also believe that from a one-on-one perspective within the church building (that is, casual, non-calling-related interpersonal interactions with other members in the hallway or between meetings), I don't think it'd be appropriate to continually preach/overbearingly remind other individuals or family members of those views.

[Mystery Meat]

11 minutes ago, Daniel2 said:

I agree... at church gatherings, it's entirely appropriate to promote the views and doctrines of the church during lessons, leader-led group discussions, and talks addressing the subject with as much tact, compassion, and love as LDS leadership has called for (specifically, as outlined on their official church website of www.mormonsandgays.com the tone of which, IMO, isn't emulated as often as I would hope it would be, at least here on the board).

I also believe that from a one-on-one perspective within the church building (that is, casual, non-calling-related interpersonal interactions with other members in the hallway or between meetings), I don't think it'd be appropriate to continually preach/overbearingly remind other individuals or family members of those views.

We have much that we can agree on then. I am glad we could take some time to listen and clarify.

Sincere, thank you.

Edited June 6, 2016 by Mystery Meat

[JAHS]

I can pretty much agree on what has been said here, but it gets confusing when you hear things in the news and internet from other gay voices about how church leaders hate gays and their children (because of the new policy); "Mormon Church Attacks Children of Gays and Lesbians"; proposition h8; mass resignations from the Church; etc.  Many of these are so-called active believing members. But from these voices it sounds like the only way to show them love is to change essential church doctrines or give in to what they want; not just change attitudes about gays.

 

Edited June 6, 2016 by JAHS

[Mystery Meat]

10 minutes ago, JAHS said:

I can pretty much agree on what has been said here, but it gets confusing when you hear things in the news and internet from other gay voices about how church leaders hate gays and their children (because of the new policy); "Mormon Church Attacks Children of Gays and Lesbians"; proposition h8; mass resignations from the Church; etc.  Many of these are so-called active believing members. But from these voices it sounds like the only way to show them love is to change essential church doctrines; not just attitudes about gays.

 

I admit, it can get very confusing for me as well.

[Daniel2]

Given JAHS's comment and even the OP by MysteryMeat, I think it's worth noting that sometimes, the Internet can distort and overcomplicate issues than how they have to be in Real Life, on all facets/paradigms of this issue.

For example, I work at a large corporation with over 4,000 employees in our building.  We come from a large variety of backgrounds, cultures, ethnicities, national origins, abled/disabled statuses, religions (though, being in Salt Lake County, all of us are familiar with Mormonism as the predominant religion, so we include a diverse mix of active Latter-day Saints, members of other Faiths, never-Mormons, former Mormons, Jack Mormons, inactive Mormons, EVEN Fundamentalist Polygamist Mormons, former FLDS, etc. etc. etc), sexual orientations (representing the full spectrum across LGBT, including many gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgendered individuals), tattoo status (I have none, but many have lots!), and even hair colors (ranging from natural-colored to colored almost every color of the rainbow).  We ALL live and work together in the same building, under the same roof.  We ALL get along.  There are often discussions about politics and religion, and we ALL find a way to navigate our jobs and friendships and working relationships in ways that are mutually respectful and peaceful.  I get along fantastic with my actively LDS coworkers (not to mention my husbands' and my ALL-LDS neighborhood, where we live locally).  My co-workers are personally engaged and interested in asking about my husband's and my home-life, our family, kids, and grandkids' and our own weekend activities, excursions, etc., just as I am personally-engaged and interested in asking about their home-life, family, kids', and grandkids' activities and excursions, including their ward activities and church callings, missionary farewells, baptisms, etc.  They don't blink an eye when asking, "How was your husband's birthday party?" just as I don't bat an eye when I ask, "Did you get to talk to your son on Mother's Day?  How's his mission going?!"  Real Life doesn't have to be as complicated... coexistence and mutual respect IS possible.  Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.  It works, which is probably why it's a tenant of virtually every major religion worldwide.

P.S.  Edited to add: that doesn't mean there aren't occasional bumps along the way.  When new policies about same-sex marriage within Mormonism or about transgender bathrooms at Target are announced, or Pride happens (as it did last weekend), or General Conference weekend spurs a lot of fiery comments on social media, there ARE ripples throughout our social interaction at work--and especially on social media! ha--but often those external actions spur good discussion where we always find middle ground.  FWIW, though... we've NEVER had an issue with transgender individuals in bathrooms... and yes, they can use the bathroom according to their gender identity (in fact, it'd be really weird for them to do otherwise...).  Ironically, when our livelihoods are all on the line--we HAVE to depend on getting along--we all can find a way to 'make it work' peacefully.

Edited June 6, 2016 by Daniel2

[stemelbow]

23 minutes ago, JAHS said:

I can pretty much agree on what has been said here, but it gets confusing when you hear things in the news and internet from other gay voices about how church leaders hate gays and their children (because of the new policy); "Mormon Church Attacks Children of Gays and Lesbians"; proposition h8; mass resignations from the Church; etc.  Many of these are so-called active believing members. But from these voices it sounds like the only way to show them love is to change essential church doctrines or give in to what they want; not just change attitudes about gays.

 

Well to be fair, the policy change, Prop 8 are things the Church did against gay people, rather than just clarifying teaching.  Prop 8 just like the current push in Mexico was the Church pushing against the rights of gay people.  The policy change labeled members as apostates and told them their kids are excluded.  If a gay person feels hate because of that, how can they be blamed.  These actions seem to promote hate, even if the Church just sees it as clarifying their position. 

[Jeanne]

4 minutes ago, Daniel2 said:

Given JAHS's comment and even the OP by MysteryMeat, I think it's worth noting that sometimes, the Internet can distort and overcomplicate issues than how they have to be in Real Life, on all facets/paradigms of this issue.

For example, I work at a large corporation with over 4,000 employees in our building.  We come from a large variety of backgrounds, cultures, ethnicities, national origins, abled/disabled statuses, religions (though, being in Salt Lake County, all of us are familiar with Mormonism as the predominant religion, so we include a diverse mix of active Latter-day Saints, members of other Faiths, never-Mormons, former Mormons, Jack Mormons, inactive Mormons, EVEN Fundamentalist Polygamist Mormons, former FLDS, etc. etc. etc), sexual orientations (representing the full spectrum across LGBT, including many gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgendered individuals), tattoo status (I have none, but many have lots!), and even hair colors (ranging from natural-colored to colored almost every color of the rainbow).  We ALL live and work together in the same building, under the same roof.  We ALL get along.  There are often discussions about politics and religion, and we ALL find a way to navigate our jobs and friendships and working relationships in ways that are mutually respectful and peaceful.  I get along fantastic with my actively LDS coworkers (not to mention my husbands' and my ALL-LDS neighborhood, where we live locally).  My co-workers are personally engaged and interested in asking about my husband's and my home-life, our family, kids, and grandkids' and our own weekend activities, excursions, etc., just as I am personally-engaged and interested in asking about their home-life, family, kids', and grandkids' activities and excursions, including their ward activities and church callings, missionary farewells, baptisms, etc.  They don't blink an eye when asking, "How was your husband's birthday party?" just as I don't bat an eye when I ask, "Did you get to talk to your son on Mother's Day?  How's his mission going?!"  Real Life doesn't have to be as complicated... coexistence and mutual respect IS possible.  Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.  It works, which is probably why it's a tenant of virtually every major religion worldwide.

Amen 

[california boy]

1 hour ago, Mystery Meat said:

I think herein lies part of the problem. In my personal life I don't have the need (nor the authority) to go around telling LGBT folks that they are sinners. But what about at Church? What about for those who have priesthood and ministerial duties to God to preach repentance, including to LGBTs? Especially when the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the Kingdom of God on Earth and its leaders (and missionaries) have a sacred obligation to preach repentance to all of the world, and not just faithful Latter-day Saints or to "audiences who were receptive and happy to listen." Is there no way to do so, without being called unloving?

Can the Church be a loving place for such? I believe that it can, but what say you?

I actually was thinking about this question when I wrote my response to you OP.  How does the church show more love to the LGBT community.  It is a different question with different answers.  Just like I don't expect you to change your personal core values that you hold so dearly, I don't expect the church to change any of it's core values or views on homosexuality.  I hope that is crystal clear as well.

What could the church do to encourage a bridge between the LGBT community?  I am not going to rehash all the hostile actions the church has done against the LGBT community.  There are plenty of threads that have talked about these issues.  But perhaps I can offer three things that the church could do that would not compromise its stance on gay relationships.

1. Quit working to take away the civil rights of gay families.  It is morally wrong.  It is shameful. Forcing others to live by your religious beliefs is not the approach Christ ever taught.  It was the other guys plan.

2. Allow all children that seek membership in the church to be baptized provided they are worthy, seek Christ and if they are minors, have parent approval. I think this is also a core principle that Christ taught.  

3. Work together throughout the country and world in seeking to pass laws protecting gays from discrimination in housing and employment.  Issuing statements of support for such non discrimination laws would show that the church stands against discrimination and the legislation passed in Utah was not just a PR stunt.  If discrimination is wrong in Utah, it is wrong anywhere it exists.

The most important way Christ taught was by what he did, not by what he said.  Words of love and compassion come cheap.  Actions change hearts.

 

[JAHS]

11 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Well to be fair, the policy change, Prop 8 are things the Church did against gay people, rather than just clarifying teaching.  Prop 8 just like the current push in Mexico was the Church pushing against the rights of gay people.  The policy change labeled members as apostates and told them their kids are excluded.  If a gay person feels hate because of that, how can they be blamed.  These actions seem to promote hate, even if the Church just sees it as clarifying their position. 

Yet many say the church hates them when there are no actual feelings of hate at all from church leaders or members. Things like what California boy and Daniel2 say, sound great, but there are so many who equate certain policies and doctrines in the church as expressions of hate when the truth is that we love all God's children. 

[stemelbow]

Just now, JAHS said:

Yet many say the church hates them when there are no actual feelings of hate at all from church leaders or members. Things like what California boy and Daniel2 say, sound great, but there are so many who equate certain policies and doctrines in the church as expressions of hate when the truth is that we love all God's children. 

Perhaps so.  I'm just saying perspective matters.  So if the message coming from one is one of love and the receiver perceives hate, there's a problem.  The problem may never have been if the message was put in a way that the receiver does not perceive hate. 

I can be as well intentioned as possible but if the message I speak conveys a message other than or opposite of what I want, then it might be me causing the problem or miscommunication. 

In the case of the Church and gay people--the message they most prominently see is the Church waging battles against their rights.  How that could ever present a message of love is beyond me. 

[JAHS]

9 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

In the case of the Church and gay people--the message they most prominently see is the Church waging battles against their rights.  How that could ever present a message of love is beyond me

I guess it's a matter of priority. We are told to first love God and second to love our neighbor. God always comes first. If according to our prophets that's what He wants us to do we do it.

[stemelbow]

4 minutes ago, JAHS said:

I guess it's a matter of priority. We are told to first love God and second to love our neighbor. God always comes first. If according to our prophets that's what He wants us to do we do it.

Sure.  But you can do both.  The problem is using loving God first as an excuse for expressing yourself poorly to those who do not feel your love.  (Not saying you are doing that and also acknowledging this is not easy all the time, and it can be tricky).

[The Nehor]

Not sure. I tried kisses but some got the wrong idea.

.....or was it the right idea?

Edited June 6, 2016 by The Nehor

[Guest]

On June 6, 2016 at 1:40 AM, Thinking said:

My son has come out as gay, and is currently trying to live a celibate life as an active LDS man. It's been a roller coaster ride so far with his emotions. He needs a lot of support.

I do not need the Church to tell me to love my daughter, no matter want. Nothing she could do would cause me to love her less. She is now going on her third marriage in the little amount since marriage has been approved. Her partners are working on their 4th becaused they reaceled out of state. Friends of mine which includes a man I served in the Bishoric with had a (or has) a gay son, and two other close friends that I attend with weekly have gay sons. Each have had numerous marriages and affairs while in these marriages. Between the three gay men (by there accounts) a total off 7 marriages and 20 lovers among the three men. A,lack of God and morals between the three men (there words since they would argue that morals come from God and because they believe in either, they see nothing wrong in their behavior. 

I have come to know and care for the three mates my wife has chosen, until they we suddenly gone overnight, now we are getting to know the third. So I have seceded that marriage means little to her, so I will not attend another. I love her and she loves me, she also respects my values. This is a beautiful young woman who helped her brother's mission. But now she wants nothing to do with faith of any kind a despises Jesus Christ and God...putting so many tattoos to mark herself as much as she can. She does this because of her distain of her body and who she is, and to send a message to all, in Church and before God, her hatred for both. I see her as often as I can and speak with him 2-3 times a week. She allows me to do so as long as I don't mention of Church, Jesus Christ or God the Father. Even in therapy she blames them all for screwing her up. I once to her that she would never have a child, her reply, "There is no way I would ever bring q child not this world who is as "F" up as me. She is is in therophy 3 times a week. Her angrer from the Chuch is,for teaching her correct principles and because the scriptures forbid homosexuality.

as he father I would go to hell for her, to spar her eternal torment. That is go much I love her, and every time we talk I reminder he how much I love her, and she tells me each time that she loves me. I fear between the Chirch and my Faity that we both stand upon a large casim, unable to reach one another. Oddly whenever she is sick she comes to me for a blessing and everyone I speak in Church she attends. I love her more than than I can express in words. As the Propjet Joseph Smith once said (too paraphrase) to parents "Your children my wonder, but if Parents will honor their covenants, there children must suffer for their sins for a time, but will one day come home to us again" if their ever were a reason to keep Temple Covenants...this is it! 

[Thinking]

1 hour ago, Pa Pa said:

I do not need the Church to tell me to love my daughter, no matter want. Nothing she could do would cause me to love her less...

I told my son that I cannot imagine what it would be like to be told that I could never be intimate with a woman, and told him that I will not judge him if he decides to to live as an openly gay man.

[Daniel2]

14 hours ago, Pa Pa said:

I do not need the Church to tell me to love my daughter, no matter want. Nothing she could do would cause me to love her less. She is now going on her third marriage in the little amount since marriage has been approved. Her partners are working on their 4th becaused they reaceled out of state. Friends of mine which includes a man I served in the Bishoric with had a (or has) a gay son, and two other close friends that I attend with weekly have gay sons. Each have had numerous marriages and affairs while in these marriages. Between the three gay men (by there accounts) a total off 7 marriages and 20 lovers among the three men. A,lack of God and morals between the three men (there words since they would argue that morals come from God and because they believe in either, they see nothing wrong in their behavior. 

I have come to know and care for the three mates my wife has chosen, until they we suddenly gone overnight, now we are getting to know the third. So I have seceded that marriage means little to her, so I will not attend another. I love her and she loves me, she also respects my values. This is a beautiful young woman who helped her brother's mission. But now she wants nothing to do with faith of any kind a despises Jesus Christ and God...putting so many tattoos to mark herself as much as she can. She does this because of her distain of her body and who she is, and to send a message to all, in Church and before God, her hatred for both. I see her as often as I can and speak with him 2-3 times a week. She allows me to do so as long as I don't mention of Church, Jesus Christ or God the Father. Even in therapy she blames them all for screwing her up. I once to her that she would never have a child, her reply, "There is no way I would ever bring q child not this world who is as "F" up as me. She is is in therophy 3 times a week. Her angrer from the Chuch is,for teaching her correct principles and because the scriptures forbid homosexuality.

as he father I would go to hell for her, to spar her eternal torment. That is go much I love her, and every time we talk I reminder he how much I love her, and she tells me each time that she loves me. I fear between the Chirch and my Faity that we both stand upon a large casim, unable to reach one another. Oddly whenever she is sick she comes to me for a blessing and everyone I speak in Church she attends. I love her more than than I can express in words. As the Propjet Joseph Smith once said (too paraphrase) to parents "Your children my wonder, but if Parents will honor their covenants, there children must suffer for their sins for a time, but will one day come home to us again" if their ever were a reason to keep Temple Covenants...this is it! 

Hi, PaPa,

Thanks for sharing more of your story concerning your daughter.  It has been enlightening, encouraging (given your unwavering love for her), and (if I'm being honest--but hopefully, not offending) somewhat heartbreaking to hear about the challenging dynamics the two of you struggle with. 

As a parent who struggles with a challenged relationship with children of my own, I can certainly relate to the joys and sorrows of parenthood, especially when our children don't respond to us and our values as much as we'd hope, even though yours and my views are on opposite sides of the spectrum.

It's hard for us when our children reject things that we value so much, and I imagine they would say the same of us.  In hearing about your daughter's rejection of your Faith and beliefs, I am reminded of the anger and hurt of so many gay and lesbian former-Mormons.  I think Tyler Glenn's "Trash" music video is a shockingly extreme and intentionally-provocative visualization of that anger and hurt.

To have married and divorced twice and entering into marriage number three in the short time that civil marriage has been legal for same-sex couple is definitely extreme by the standards of anyone that I know, myself included.  I can only imagine how challenging that is to begin welcoming a new spouse into your life, only to abruptly lose them shortly thereafter.  I am surprised to hear about the other three young men who you say have also entered into numerous marriages since that time... Again, it seems to me that such cases are extreme. 

Of my friends and family that I know who are gay and civilly married, there have been a few divorces, but I know of none who've experienced more than one legal marriage.  Personally, I understand that many gay men don't have an expectation of monogamy within their marriages, so the fact that these men have had 20 lovers between them during that time is indicative of their feelings that monogamy isn't necessary, and I can see how those beliefs and attitudes are and would be affected by their lack of belief in God, as well as an absolute rejection of any same-sex relationship under any circumstances, could result in ambivalence or even absolute indifference towards the 'moral' of sexual monogamy. 

As a gay man in my mid-40's, a father, and a former Latter-day Saint, I recognize my life experiences are radically different from many gay men who've grown up outside the bounds of religion and on the fringe of social acceptance.  I recognize "the LGBT community" is all-too-often a 'broken' lot... some of which is the result of how they've been treated, and often a great deal of which is the result of personal failings or what I would consider to be less-than healthy responses to handling rejection, loss, abuse, etc.  Many have a lot of healing, as well as 'growing up' to do, when it comes to understanding the importance of personal and relationship-based commitment, avoiding substance abuse and (especially unsafe) promiscuity, and finding healthy emotional, physical, and spiritual health and even responsibility in each of those categories. 

In doing my own soul-searching on my journey to self-acceptance and coming out and leaving the church, I came across the works of many therapists who are also gay who I consider to be mentors.  I believe their research and recommendations will prove to be invaluable in and working with the LGBT community (Joe Kort, Jonathan Rauch, and Alan Downs, to name a few). I hope we, both as a community and as a society (within our social, political, wellness, and religious communities) might begin to emphasize and help sexual minorities begin to establish improved personal mental and physical health and improved and healthy relationships by emphasizing the long-term, stabilizing emotional, spiritual, and physical benefits of sexual fidelity, avoiding substance abuse, etc. 

I've recommended it before, but I subscribe to the approach advocated in the invaluable book, "The Velvet Rage: Overcoming the Pain of Growing Up Gay in a Straight Man's World," and would encourage anyone to read it if you have a gay or lesbian loved-one.  It's very enlightening, and is authored by a therapist who also grew up gay.  PaPa, even though it's geared towards men, perhaps you can tell your daughter that an openly-gay man who's also no longer LDS recommended you share it with your daughter.  Many of the principles sound like they would help her, as well (in his introduction, the author himself says that although the book refers to the male pronoun, many lesbians have given him feedback that the principles he discusses resonate with them, as well...).

I wish you continued success and love and joy with your daughter, inspite of (and sometimes because of) continuing to love one another across your challenges!

Edited June 8, 2016 by Daniel2

[Tacenda]

http://www.freedomforallamericans.org/father-in-mormon-family-shares-how-two-sons-coming-out-experiences-propelled-him-to-understanding/

This couple did a 180, when both their sons came out gay.  They have come to believe that their sons should get what everyone else has, a companion.  They even mention the scripture about man being alone... "And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him."

Edited June 8, 2016 by Tacenda

[Jeanne]

19 hours ago, Pa Pa said:

I do not need the Church to tell me to love my daughter, no matter want. Nothing she could do would cause me to love her less. She is now going on her third marriage in the little amount since marriage has been approved. Her partners are working on their 4th becaused they reaceled out of state. Friends of mine which includes a man I served in the Bishoric with had a (or has) a gay son, and two other close friends that I attend with weekly have gay sons. Each have had numerous marriages and affairs while in these marriages. Between the three gay men (by there accounts) a total off 7 marriages and 20 lovers among the three men. A,lack of God and morals between the three men (there words since they would argue that morals come from God and because they believe in either, they see nothing wrong in their behavior. 

I have come to know and care for the three mates my wife has chosen, until they we suddenly gone overnight, now we are getting to know the third. So I have seceded that marriage means little to her, so I will not attend another. I love her and she loves me, she also respects my values. This is a beautiful young woman who helped her brother's mission. But now she wants nothing to do with faith of any kind a despises Jesus Christ and God...putting so many tattoos to mark herself as much as she can. She does this because of her distain of her body and who she is, and to send a message to all, in Church and before God, her hatred for both. I see her as often as I can and speak with him 2-3 times a week. She allows me to do so as long as I don't mention of Church, Jesus Christ or God the Father. Even in therapy she blames them all for screwing her up. I once to her that she would never have a child, her reply, "There is no way I would ever bring q child not this world who is as "F" up as me. She is is in therophy 3 times a week. Her angrer from the Chuch is,for teaching her correct principles and because the scriptures forbid homosexuality.

as he father I would go to hell for her, to spar her eternal torment. That is go much I love her, and every time we talk I reminder he how much I love her, and she tells me each time that she loves me. I fear between the Chirch and my Faity that we both stand upon a large casim, unable to reach one another. Oddly whenever she is sick she comes to me for a blessing and everyone I speak in Church she attends. I love her more than than I can express in words. As the Propjet Joseph Smith once said (too paraphrase) to parents "Your children my wonder, but if Parents will honor their covenants, there children must suffer for their sins for a time, but will one day come home to us again" if their ever were a reason to keep Temple Covenants...this is it! 

I have great admiration for you..a man with a strong testimony that loves and cares deeply. 

[Guest]

Daniel

You must have missed that she traveled to States where legal. Since Georgia had not made it legal, once she just walked away, the second time she went to New York, by the time that marriage ended the Courts had ruled and she had to get a divorce, now she is getting married again. Both her former wives are already married again. Is this what SSM, couples had in mind...I think not. It would seem from my limited experience with my child and a number of Gay men through work, few now that they have the right to marry do not take it seriously. Even more so fidelity within marriage. Nothing will ever change my love for my daughter, but is my house or the houses of so many other friends to be an endless revolving door, of new lovers and new spouses? I am not talking about excepting Church values of man and wife, I am talking about being honest and true. 

[Daniel2]

13 hours ago, Pa Pa said:

Daniel

You must have missed that she traveled to States where legal. Since Georgia had not made it legal, once she just walked away, the second time she went to New York, by the time that marriage ended the Courts had ruled and she had to get a divorce, now she is getting married again. Both her former wives are already married again. Is this what SSM, couples had in mind...I think not. It would seem from my limited experience with my child and a number of Gay men through work, few now that they have the right to marry do not take it seriously. Even more so fidelity within marriage. Nothing will ever change my love for my daughter, but is my house or the houses of so many other friends to be an endless revolving door, of new lovers and new spouses? I am not talking about excepting Church values of man and wife, I am talking about being honest and true. 

In answer to, "Is this what SSM, couples had in mind... I think not," I would agree.  That's not what I had in mind, either.  I am sorry to hear that she and her partners haven't taken the time and effort to make lasting commitments to each other.

With all do respect, it seems to me that, even with your "limited experience with [your] child and a number of gay men through work," it would be a mistake to presume those attitudes apply to a majority of the LGBT population, because a handful of people is not representative of thousands of others.  I know far more LGBT individuals than a handful, and while I don't doubt that some exist, no one I know wants or aspires to the transitory, short-term marital relationships you're describing as it relates to civil marriage. 

I've addressed the lack of fidelity within marriage previously, and stand by my earlier comments.

I hope, for your daugther's sake more than anyone else's, that her relationships don't become an endless revolving door of new lovers and spouses.  As parents, it can be difficult to see them face such personal pain, emotional upheaval, and personal, spiritual, and financial instability.

I'm not sure what you're meaning about being honest and true, but those are both values I admire and aspire to.

D

 

[Tacenda]

On 6/6/2016 at 0:59 PM, stemelbow said:

Well to be fair, the policy change, Prop 8 are things the Church did against gay people, rather than just clarifying teaching.  Prop 8 just like the current push in Mexico was the Church pushing against the rights of gay people.  The policy change labeled members as apostates and told them their kids are excluded.  If a gay person feels hate because of that, how can they be blamed.  These actions seem to promote hate, even if the Church just sees it as clarifying their position. 

And then we have Elder Oaks speaking up for Religious Freedom. Does that mean he's also fighting for the right to take other's rights away and not get flack for it? I know I'm coming from not having researched well, and I don't mean to derail.  But don't get how he can fight for religious freedom, and not for the rights of a gay person. Just the right to take their rights away. https://www.lds.org/prophets-and-apostles/unto-all-the-world/people-of-faith-should-defend-freedom-of-religion-elder-oaks-says?lang=eng

"All that is necessary for unity and a broad coalition along the lines I am suggesting is a common belief that there is a right and wrong in human behavior that has been established by a Supreme Being. All who believe in that fundamental should unite more effectively to preserve and strengthen the freedom to advocate and practice our religious beliefs, whatever they are.”

In calling for such a coalition, Elder Oaks said it would not need to be associated with a particular religious group or political party. In an interview prior to the speech, he said, “What unites us in religion is far more important than what divides us in the capacity to speak up for religious freedom.”

[HappyJackWagon]

15 hours ago, Pa Pa said:

Daniel

You must have missed that she traveled to States where legal. Since Georgia had not made it legal, once she just walked away, the second time she went to New York, by the time that marriage ended the Courts had ruled and she had to get a divorce, now she is getting married again. Both her former wives are already married again. Is this what SSM, couples had in mind...I think not. It would seem from my limited experience with my child and a number of Gay men through work, few now that they have the right to marry do not take it seriously. Even more so fidelity within marriage. Nothing will ever change my love for my daughter, but is my house or the houses of so many other friends to be an endless revolving door, of new lovers and new spouses? I am not talking about excepting Church values of man and wife, I am talking about being honest and true. 

I think it's important to realize that there are different cultural issues at play here. If you're expecting all gays to come to marriage thinking the exact same way about it as hetero couples, then you are likely to be disappointed.

Think of it this way. I grew up my entire life planning to get married. I planned to save myself for marriage, for that one eternal companion. That was part of the culture in which I was raised. It helped me develop certain expectations and standards.

Now take a gay person who has been told their whole life that they are an abomination and that any sxual behavior would be damning. They are told they are not like others and cannot get married. So they hide. They have underground relationships because that's all they know is possible. Suddenly they are allowed to get married. Do you think there may be a little bit of a cultural curve before gay kids start growing up like I did thinking they will get married some day and that they can wait for that one person?

Even now, the church continues to tell gays that they cannot dream or plan for their futures like the rest of us. They cannot look forward to marriage. They cannot hope for the kind of intimate, emotional bond all people seek. They are being told they are apostates for doing these things, so naturally many will continue to live in a kind of underground culture where committed monogamy isn't valued. But why should they value it for themselves when the church doesn't even value it for them. It's baffling and bassackwards.