Cessationism

[boblloyd91]

I was curious if any of our board members subscribe to cessationism in their theological beliefs. I ask not to bash but merely to inquire what led you to this conclusion. This is an interesting position to me.

[JLHPROF]

I'd be shocked if any Church members do.  I am sure our traditional Christian posters do.

[boblloyd91]

That's who I was wondering about. If a church member did they weren't reading their scriptures!

[mfbukowski]

What I find interesting- and I will post this once and not follow up so as not to derail- unless this is already a derail and then I will take it down- is that many LDS who do NOT subscribe to cessationism believe that truth itself is unchanging.  

[Robert F. Smith]

24 minutes ago, boblloyd91 said:

That's who I was wondering about. If a church member did they weren't reading their scriptures!

There are several aspects to that question.

For one thing, Jan Shipps has repeatedly argued that (unlike modern Mormons) early Mormons lived in "sacred time," and exhibited all the liminal qualities one might expect from ancient ecstatic believers.  Like the Methodists, Mormons seem to have largely given up the charismatic gifts exhibited almost constantly in the early years, and this may be something which accompanies the development of institutionalized religion. This despite the regular use of priesthood blessings for the sick among Mormons.

To understand the debate about cessationism among charismatic and mainstream Christians, one might want to read the review by Loren Sandford of John MacArthur's Strange Fire, online at http://www.charismanews.com/opinion/41456-cessationist-john-macarthur-can-t-put-the-fire-out .

[boblloyd91]

8 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

There are several aspects to that question.

For one thing, Jan Shipps has repeatedly argued that (unlike modern Mormons) early Mormons lived in "sacred time," and exhibited all the liminal qualities one might expect from ancient ecstatic believers.  Like the Methodists, Mormons seem to have largely given up the charismatic gifts exhibited almost constantly in the early years, and this may be something which accompanies the development of institutionalized religion. This despite the regular use of priesthood blessings for the sick among Mormons.

To understand the debate about cessationism among charismatic and mainstream Christians, one might want to read the review by Loren Sandford of John MacArthur's Strange Fire, online at http://www.charismanews.com/opinion/41456-cessationist-john-macarthur-can-t-put-the-fire-out .

Thanks for that Robert! I found that discussion interesting. You bring up an interesting point about the changing nature of our use of the gifts of the spirit. For example there is virtually no recent use that I'm aware of of glossalia in LDS settings (though many people who go on missions report xenolalia). Interestingly, I've read a few discussions regarding the Assemblies of God church and how there are discussions of speaking in tongues happening considerably less than before. 

[boblloyd91]

By the way Robert, what's your take on the current Pentecostal/Charismatic movement? 

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, boblloyd91 said:

By the way Robert, what's your take on the current Pentecostal/Charismatic movement? 

I don't know much about it, although I have personally observed Pentecostal services.  I have also been present during Roman Catholic charismatic services held by laymen, priests, and nuns.

You might be interested in this book:  https://www.createspace.com/6109060 .

[boblloyd91]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I don't know much about it, although I have personally observed Pentecostal services.  I have also been present during Roman Catholic charismatic services held by laymen, priests, and nuns.

You might be interested in this book:  https://www.createspace.com/6109060 .

I ask because they are very critical of Mormonism, and adhere more to the "New Age" Anti Mormonism of the likes of Decker and Schnoebelen (i.e. believing Mormonism is demonic, we need exorcisms etc) I am of the opinion that they are a pretty scary bunch

[Robert F. Smith]

4 hours ago, boblloyd91 said:

I ask because they are very critical of Mormonism, and adhere more to the "New Age" Anti Mormonism of the likes of Decker and Schnoebelen (i.e. believing Mormonism is demonic, we need exorcisms etc) I am of the opinion that they are a pretty scary bunch

The ones I have met are very nice people, although it can be pretty scary for those that get latched onto as possessed, from whom they try to cast out the demons.  I've seen them work on one guy in particular, and he looked mighty uncomfortable.

[The Nehor]

On May 24, 2016 at 10:59 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

There are several aspects to that question.

For one thing, Jan Shipps has repeatedly argued that (unlike modern Mormons) early Mormons lived in "sacred time," and exhibited all the liminal qualities one might expect from ancient ecstatic believers.  Like the Methodists, Mormons seem to have largely given up the charismatic gifts exhibited almost constantly in the early years, and this may be something which accompanies the development of institutionalized religion. This despite the regular use of priesthood blessings for the sick among Mormons.

To understand the debate about cessationism among charismatic and mainstream Christians, one might want to read the review by Loren Sandford of John MacArthur's Strange Fire, online at http://www.charismanews.com/opinion/41456-cessationist-john-macarthur-can-t-put-the-fire-out .

I suspect that the main reason some gifts of the Spirit are rarer then others is members do not seek them. We seek healing because we want it. Maybe we do not want the others as much.

[boblloyd91]

8 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I suspect that the main reason some gifts of the Spirit are rarer then others is members do not seek them. We seek healing because we want it. Maybe we do not want the others as much.

That's a good point, I think few members desire the gift of glossalia in this day and age

[Jim Stiles]

On 5/24/2016 at 1:32 PM, boblloyd91 said:

I ask because they are very critical of Mormonism, and adhere more to the "New Age" Anti Mormonism of the likes of Decker and Schnoebelen (i.e. believing Mormonism is demonic, we need exorcisms etc) I am of the opinion that they are a pretty scary bunch

Ed Decker never let the truth get in the way of a good story.

[Rain]

For those who lack the vocabulary like I do: I googled some of these words.  I make no claims that the terms are correct. 

"In Christianity, cessationism is the doctrine that spiritual gifts such as speaking in tongues, prophecy and healing ceased with the original twelve apostles. "- from wikipedia

"Definition of liminal

1. 1:  of or relating to a sensory threshold

2. 2:  barely perceptible

3. 3:  of, relating to, or being an intermediate state, phase, or condition :  in-between, transitional<in the liminal state between life and death — Deborah Jowitt>" -From merriam-Webster 

4.  

"Glossolalia or speaking in tongues, according to linguists, is the fluid vocalizing of speech-like syllables that lack any readily comprehended meaning, in some cases as part of religious practice in which it is believed to be a divine language unknown to the speaker. "- from wikipedia 

 

"Meaning of xenolalia: xenolalia(uncountable) The ability to speak in a language which the individual has not learned." - from the international dictionary

 

 

Edited May 26, 2016 by Rain

[saemo]

On May 24, 2016 at 9:15 PM, JLHPROF said:

 I am sure our traditional Christian posters do.

No.

[Jim Stiles]

5 hours ago, saemo said:

No.

This is one difference between the Lutheran, Baptists, and Reformed versus the Roman Catholicism.  The material principle of the Reformation was Sola Scriptura.  From this material principle comes the following dictums of cessationism:

1. Completion of the Biblical Canon
2. Infallible and Sufficient Authority of the Bible
3. Perfection of the Scriptures to guide the Church

Related to this is the idea of the Regulative Principle of Worship.

[saemo]

7 hours ago, Jim Stiles said:

This is one difference between the Lutheran, Baptists, and Reformed versus the Roman Catholicism.  The material principle of the Reformation was Sola Scriptura.  From this material principle comes the following dictums of cessationism:

1. Completion of the Biblical Canon
2. Infallible and Sufficient Authority of the Bible
3. Perfection of the Scriptures to guide the Church

Related to this is the idea of the Regulative Principle of Worship.

I haven't really come across a mainline Protestant or Anglican, who doesn't believe that "the good gifts that flow from God's love", is not the very definition of Grace. Some of these gifts are named explicitly in the Bible, others implicitly.   

Edited May 28, 2016 by saemo

[Jim Stiles]

16 minutes ago, saemo said:

I haven't really come across a mainline Protestant or Anglican, who doesn't believe that "the good gifts that flow from God's love", is not the very definition of Grace. Some of these gifts are named explicitly in the Bible, others implicitly.   

The work of the Holy Spirit in the church is to point to the truth.  When we read or listen to the word, the Holy Spirit gives us the ability to understand what we are hearing or reading and the knowledge that what we read or hear is true.  The sacraments work in a similar manner.

[saemo]

2 minutes ago, Jim Stiles said:

The work of the Holy Spirit in the church is to point to the truth.  When we read or listen to the word, the Holy Spirit gives us the ability to understand what we are hearing or reading and the knowledge that what we read or hear is true.  The sacraments work in a similar manner.

Agreed. 

[mfbukowski]

On 5/28/2016 at 0:33 AM, Jim Stiles said:

The work of the Holy Spirit in the church is to point to the truth.  When we read or listen to the word, the Holy Spirit gives us the ability to understand what we are hearing or reading and the knowledge that what we read or hear is true.  The sacraments work in a similar manner.

Which is precisely why the Book of Mormon is true as well.

Glad you understand the rationale.  In other words, you deny us the same privilege you take for yourself.  

[mfbukowski]

On 5/28/2016 at 0:36 AM, saemo said:

Agreed. 

And I guess then the above applies to you as well

Nice to know we agree about how belief in the BOM is justified.

How do you explain the fact that we disagree about it?  Clearly you do NOT agree totally with Jim Stiles on this one- and he doesn't even agree with himself on it when applied to the BOM.

At least we are consistent.  There is truth in all scripture, some more than most and the only way you can know true scripture is by the spirit.

[saemo]

...

Edited May 31, 2016 by saemo

[Jim Stiles]

13 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Which is precisely why the Book of Mormon is true as well.

Glad you understand the rationale.  In other words, you deny us the same privilege you take for yourself.  

Here is how that process works with the Book of Mormon:

Quote

1 Kings 22:20-23 And the Lord said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner. And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the Lord, and said, I will persuade him. And the Lord said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so. Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.

Seriously, if a spirit tells one that both the Bible and the Book of Mormon are true, then that spirit is not the Holy Spirit because the two books contradict each other.

Edited May 31, 2016 by Jim Stiles

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, Jim Stiles said:

Here is how that process works with the Book of Mormon:

Seriously, if a spirit tells one that both the Bible and the Book of Mormon are true, then that spirit is not the Holy Spirit because the two books contradict each other.

We'll of course the bible contradicts itself as well.

But I no longer want to bash, so I will leave you alone

[Jim Stiles]

16 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

We'll of course the bible contradicts itself as well.

But I no longer want to bash, so I will leave you alone

If you change your mind, I would like to have a CFR for the bolded section.