LDS doctrine of God

[Ginger Snaps]

On 5/9/2016 at 11:13 AM, Sky said:

"  

Even so, in all of my life as a Mormon, I've never been taught or pictured myself someday being equal with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ.

Really?  There are many scriptures to back this up:

 D&C 88:107 And then shall the angels be crowned with the glory of his might, and the saints shall be filled with his glory,and receive their inheritance and be made equal with him.

 

D&C 76: 94 They who dwell in his presence are the church of the Firstborn; and they see as they are seen, and know as they are known, having received of his fulness and of his grace;

95 And he makes them equal in power, and in might, and in dominion.

D&C 29:13  For a trump shall sound both long and loud, even as upon Mount Sinai, and all the earth shall quake, and they shall come forth—yea, even the dead which died in me, to receive a crown of righteousness, and to be clothed upon, even as I am, to be with me, that we may be one.

D&C 84:38 And he that receiveth my Father receiveth my Father’s kingdom; therefore all that my Father hath shall be given unto him.

[Ginger Snaps]

(Sorry for the wonky editing.  My browser didn't like the cut & paste from lds.org)

[RevTestament]

11 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Then we have the question of what came "before" the big bang, or "before" time

Some postulate the BB was a singularity exploding.  So did that singularity exist before time?  Is it singularities exploding all the way down?

It might as well be turtles or gods.

I like the God story better.   That's about what it amounts to.

It's not like there is a possible resolution to this problem either way- it's just picking the story you like better in the long run.

Well, actually the big bang model doesn't postulate an actual beginning to matter. Matter existed in the singularity although in other states, and they don't know what existed before. It doesn't postulate that matter just poofed into existence. As I have said several times, I have real doubts concerning the Big Bang Model such as how does matter escape a singularity of such magnitude and gravity that matter cannot escape? The Model doesn't comport with our present knowledge of physics - it just seemed like a good idea suggested by the expansion of galaxies. However, not all galaxies are moving fast enough to have been created in the "big bang" so then things like dark matter and dark energy got postulated to try to explain this, which they don't very well. Again, things just don't add up for the Big Bang Model in my mind.

[VideoGameJunkie]

23 minutes ago, Ginger Snaps said:

Really?  There are many scriptures to back this up:

 D&C 88:107 And then shall the angels be crowned with the glory of his might, and the saints shall be filled with his glory,and receive their inheritance and be made equal with him.

 

D&C 76: 94 They who dwell in his presence are the church of the Firstborn; and they see as they are seen, and know as they are known, having received of his fulness and of his grace;

95 And he makes them equal in power, and in might, and in dominion.

D&C 29:13  For a trump shall sound both long and loud, even as upon Mount Sinai, and all the earth shall quake, and they shall come forth—yea, even the dead which died in me, to receive a crown of righteousness, and to be clothed upon, even as I am, to be with me, that we may be one.

D&C 84:38 And he that receiveth my Father receiveth my Father’s kingdom; therefore all that my Father hath shall be given unto him.

Thanks for this. It's really amazing to think about just how wonderful of a reward/blessing exaltation is to those that receive it. D&C 132 says Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are exalted already, so I assume people like Adam, Seth, Noah, and Moses probably are too by now.

Edited May 10, 2016 by VideoGameJunkie

[RevTestament]

22 minutes ago, Ginger Snaps said:

(Sorry for the wonky editing.  My browser didn't like the cut & paste from lds.org)

When you cut and paste scripture or text that has been formatted, you will see a "please remove formatting" in your reply window. Just click on it, and it will automatically remove the formatting for you, and it will be less wonky. :) 

[JLHPROF]

33 minutes ago, Ginger Snaps said:

Really?  There are many scriptures to back this up:

 D&C 88:107 And then shall the angels be crowned with the glory of his might, and the saints shall be filled with his glory,and receive their inheritance and be made equal with him.

D&C 76: 94 They who dwell in his presence are the church of the Firstborn; and they see as they are seen, and know as they are known, having received of his fulness and of his grace;
95 And he makes them equal in power, and in might, and in dominion.

D&C 29:13  For a trump shall sound both long and loud, even as upon Mount Sinai, and all the earth shall quake, and they shall come forth—yea, even the dead which died in me, to receive a crown of righteousness, and to be clothed upon, even as I am, to be with me, that we may be one.

D&C 84:38 And he that receiveth my Father receiveth my Father’s kingdom; therefore all that my Father hath shall be given unto him.

These are excellent.
I can see how other religions would have a hard time with this doctrine, but it is crystal clear in Mormonism.
We receive everything the Father has (through the son).  Power, might, dominion, everything.  And we are equal with him.

 

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, RevTestament said:

However, I don't see how this scripture shows in any way that God is not omnipotent or that the Father "progresses." We have nothing to teach us that the Father inherits anything. Jesus inherits all the Father has, but the Father seems to already have everything...so He seems to have nothing to progress to with the possible exception of slowly including more as the Father. I don't see an order of kingdoms higher than the Father...He is the Most High.

So what type of being is God?
Is God a Celestial being?

If the father is a Celestial being is there anything higher than Celestial?
There are kingdoms of a higher order than the Celestial, then it stands to reason that there are beings of a higher order than the Celestial too.

[RevTestament]

23 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

So what type of being is God?
Is God a Celestial being?

If the father is a Celestial being is there anything higher than Celestial?
There are kingdoms of a higher order than the Celestial, then it stands to reason that there are beings of a higher order than the Celestial too.

God the Father is the Most High of the Elohim - the true El, without which there would be no Elohim. Whether all that are in the celestial kingdom are elohim or not, I cannot say, but I believe the Elohim is one such kingdom. The 144,000 is another kingdom. I believe those verses are speaking of those who "enter" the celestial kingdom in this life or in other words meet the qualifications to do so, and receive the promise to enter in. The white stone spoken of is revelation - in other words they will see the order of these kingdoms and write of these things, and it will become scripture - can't much do that in the afterlife. 

Edited May 10, 2016 by RevTestament

[JLHPROF]

6 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

God the Father is the Most High of the Elohim - the true El, without which there would be no Elohim. Whether all that are in the celestial kingdom are elohim or not, I cannot say, but I believe the Elohim is one such kingdom. The 144,000 is another kingdom. I believe those verses are speaking of those who "enter" the celestial kingdom in this life or in other words meet the qualifications to do so, and receive the promise to enter in. The white stone spoken of is revelation - in other words they will see the order of these kingdoms and write of these things, and it will become scripture - can't much do that in the afterlife. 

You are welcome to believe that.  I believe that there is eternal progression, and Celestial glory is just one stepping stone.
Even the symbolism on the Salt Lake Temple shows higher kingdoms than Celestial.   Every stone a sermon.

[theplains]

7 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

And when Joseph woke up realized the futility of this God, traditional Christianity demonized him....

Joseph first demonized all of traditional Christianity with his vision account.

Jim

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

Do unchangeable principles of eternal truth have a role to play in process philosophy? Or do even the principles of truth change? I'm wondering how close process philosophy is to the theology of the Restored Gospel.

It is highly compatible with the gospel.  Ostler identifies with the movement.

The metaphysics is that all reality is in the process of becoming. So is ours. God is eternally creating and progressing. 

Only linguistic statements can be true or false and linguistic  descriptions are constantly changing.

I don't know if that fits your criteria or not. The more we know the better our descriptions become and so they change and their truth  changes. Only sentences are true or false not the world.

Truth is seeing things as they are but things are constantly changing so where does that put Eternal truth? It is eternally seeing things as they change and describing them well.

Edited May 10, 2016 by mfbukowski

[JLHPROF]

8 minutes ago, theplains said:

Joseph first demonized all of traditional Christianity with his vision account.

They took care of that themselves by moving further from God and his gospel.
 

[theplains]

2 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

They took care of that themselves by moving further from God and his gospel.
 

Comparing the teachings of the leaders of the original LDS Church (and those members who followed
them) with the present day one, I wonder which moved further away from God and his gospel.

Jim

[VideoGameJunkie]

I always thought God increases and grows as His spirit posterity grows in size, and when his spirit children have spirit children of their own and populate worlds that Heavenly Father grows in glory and eternal increase. It's all about family and getting that eternal posterity to be exalted and have more spirit children for world's without end.

[JLHPROF]

24 minutes ago, theplains said:

Comparing the teachings of the leaders of the original LDS Church (and those members who followed
them) with the present day one, I wonder which moved further away from God and his gospel.

Jim

Good question.
I still think it was the original Church.

But we today are not without deviation.

[mfbukowski]

Quote

Even so, in all of my life as a Mormon, I've never been taught or pictured myself someday being equal with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ.

John 17- selected verses

1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee....

11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are....

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world....

Revelation 3: 21

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Edited May 11, 2016 by mfbukowski

[RevTestament]

4 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

You are welcome to believe that.  I believe that there is eternal progression, and Celestial glory is just one stepping stone.
Even the symbolism on the Salt Lake Temple shows higher kingdoms than Celestial.   Every stone a sermon.

Well, there is "eternal progression" till one reaches the Most High - there just is no known higher. As I have said, how do you go higher than omnipotence? There is no scripture that says the Father inherits anything - He does glorify His name. One might say His inheritance is Christ and His kingdom - don't know for sure. Scripture says more like that is Christ's inheritance. So is the kingdom of Elohim separate from the Father? No, it is not. Elohim is one of his titles/names. Temporal is not - Elohim is. But He has other titles too, that reflect a higher glory than Elohim. It is somewhat comparable to the Son who also has the office or title of High Priest - or a Bishop who also has the office or title of high priest, elder, etc. Whether these higher offices are within the celestial kingdom or some other "kingdom" I can't claim any specific revelation for, but it seems to me they are. But an example is that the Son is also Elohim per Hebrews 1:8  and Psalms. He is also JHWH, but He is not yet the Most High El per Luke, but the Son of the Most High.

I don't believe there are any "new spirits." I believe per the KFD and Abraham spirits are eternal and have always been. The Father does not "birth" new spirits, but we become His children spiritually by following the word.

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, RevTestament said:

Well, there is "eternal progression" till one reaches the Most High - there just is no known higher. As I have said, how do you go higher than omnipotence? There is no scripture that says the Father inherits anything - He does glorify His name. One might say His inheritance is Christ and His kingdom - don't know for sure. Scripture says more like that is Christ's inheritance. So is the kingdom of Elohim separate from the Father? No, it is not. Elohim is one of his titles/names. Temporal is not - Elohim is. But He has other titles too, that reflect a higher glory than Elohim. It is somewhat comparable to the Son who also has the office or title of High Priest - or a Bishop who also has the office or title of high priest, elder, etc. Whether these higher offices are within the celestial kingdom or some other "kingdom" I can't claim any specific revelation for, but it seems to me they are. But an example is that the Son is also Elohim per Hebrews 1:8  and Psalms. He is also JHWH, but He is not yet the Most High El per Luke, but the Son of the Most High.

I don't believe there are any "new spirits." I believe per the KFD and Abraham spirits are eternal and have always been. The Father does not "birth" new spirits, but we become His children spiritually by following the word.

Sticking only to Mormonism for now as our starting point (so as not to get into the Mormon vs Trad Christianity debates).
Here is the main point in question though. 
The Father DID inherit something in Mormon theology.  He inherited all he has from his Godhead when he was mortal.
He didn't start out as "the Most High El" to use your term.

So that leaves us with this question?  He became the Most High El, head of the Eloheim (to keep with your choice of terminology).
What happened to the Gods which He followed to become the Most High El?  Are they now his peers, meaning there are many quorums of Eloheim out there each with a presiding El?  Or having fulfilled their callings, did they move on to preside over higher kingdoms?

And personally, I reject all notions of omnipotence and omniscience as pure nonsense.  Such labels are only valid within finite spheres.

[Sky]

Even if I do become a god someday, I will be eternally subordinate to God the Father (Elohim), God the Son (Jehovah), and the Holy Ghost.  They comprise the Godhead in LDS doctrine.  I will always worship the Father in the name of the Son by the power of the Holy Ghost.  It was God's only begotten son and His atoning sacrifice that allowed me to be exalted in the first place.  I can never repay that.  So they are always worthy of my worship.  So to say or imply that I can someday become my own independent god is deeply flawed.  

Nothing has been revealed to us about the father of God the Father, if there is one.  So I think it is best to leave that one on the shelf.  Also, nothing has been revealed that says there are higher kingdoms than the Celestial.     

 

[RevTestament]

24 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Sticking only to Mormonism for now as our starting point (so as not to get into the Mormon vs Trad Christianity debates).
Here is the main point in question though. 
The Father DID inherit something in Mormon theology.  He inherited all he has from his Godhead when he was mortal.
He didn't start out as "the Most High El" to use your term.

So that leaves us with this question?  He became the Most High El, head of the Eloheim (to keep with your choice of terminology).
What happened to the Gods which He followed to become the Most High El?  Are they now his peers, meaning there are many quorums of Eloheim out there each with a presiding El?  Or having fulfilled their callings, did they move on to preside over higher kingdoms?

And personally, I reject all notions of omnipotence and omniscience as pure nonsense.  Such labels are only valid within finite spheres.

To us He is certainly omnipotent. He can manipulate Satan. He knows all our thoughts and deeds. He can convert matter so that we are healed, etc. 

To try to answer your question again, I have said we have no scripture to indicate there is anything higher than the Father. I believe that is the highest office of the priesthood. Could I be wrong? I suppose, because I have no direct revelation on it to indicate differently, so rely on what we have in the scriptures. But everything I know tells me the Father is the highest office of the priesthood - there is no higher kingdom revealed to man anyway.

[mfbukowski]

Never mind

I decided not to get into it

Edited May 11, 2016 by mfbukowski

[Bobbieaware]

50 minutes ago, Sky said:

Even if I do become a god someday, I will be eternally subordinate to God the Father (Elohim), God the Son (Jehovah), and the Holy Ghost.  They comprise the Godhead in LDS doctrine.  I will always worship the Father in the name of the Son by the power of the Holy Ghost.  It was God's only begotten son and His atoning sacrifice that allowed me to be exalted in the first place.  I can never repay that.  So they are always worthy of my worship.  So to say or imply that I can someday become my own independent god is deeply flawed.  

Nothing has been revealed to us about the father of God the Father, if there is one.  So I think it is best to leave that one on the shelf.  Also, nothing has been revealed that says there are higher kingdoms than the Celestial.     

 

If one understands what's actually going on, the answers you are struggling with are all found in the temple.

[RevTestament]

8 hours ago, Sky said:

Even if I do become a god someday, I will be eternally subordinate to God the Father (Elohim), God the Son (Jehovah), and the Holy Ghost.  They comprise the Godhead in LDS doctrine.  I will always worship the Father in the name of the Son by the power of the Holy Ghost.  It was God's only begotten son and His atoning sacrifice that allowed me to be exalted in the first place.  I can never repay that.  So they are always worthy of my worship.  So to say or imply that I can someday become my own independent god is deeply flawed.  

I believe so too. As God said in Isaiah 44:8 "Is there a God/Eloah beside me? yea, there is no [other] rock; I know not any."

When Jesus shall be called the Father, does the Father get called something else? I think the Father is still the Father. That shall be the case unless there is revelation otherwise. So to think that in our next life we are going to run off and make our own planets is a false assumption. Agreed.  

Wow, as a side note, the above scripture is the perfect example of a "fault" in relying on the KJV. The KJV reads: "Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any." 

But the Hebrew says what I put in bold above: there is no sur/rock; I know not any. Again we see the Lord using Eloah with rock/stone as He does in the Torah. The plural Elohim I read as the family/house of immovable force/stone. Eloah is used by the Lord when He says I am the rock of your salvation or the rock of Israel. So when He says this He is essentially saying there are no other Elohim - I am your Elohim or your family. Without me there are no Elohim. But it is inclusive of them as Jesus pointed out. As Peter pointed out, the followers in the priesthood were "lively stones" and thus become part of the rock or revelation to man.

[JLHPROF]

3 hours ago, RevTestament said:

I believe so too. As God said in Isaiah 44:8 "Is there a God/Eloah beside me? yea, there is no [other] rock; I know not any."

When Jesus shall be called the Father, does the Father get called something else? I think the Father is still the Father. That shall be the case unless there is revelation otherwise. So to think that in our next life we are going to run off and make our own planets is a false assumption. Agreed.

Wow, as a side note, the above scripture is the perfect example of a "fault" in relying on the KJV. The KJV reads: "Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any." 

But the Hebrew says what I put in bold above: there is no sur/rock; I know not any. Again we see the Lord using Eloah with rock/stone as He does in the Torah. The plural Elohim I read as the family/house of immovable force/stone. Eloah is used by the Lord when He says I am the rock of your salvation or the rock of Israel. So when He says this He is essentially saying there are no other Elohim - I am your Elohim or your family. Without me there are no Elohim. But it is inclusive of them as Jesus pointed out. As Peter pointed out, the followers in the priesthood were "lively stones" and thus become part of the rock or revelation to man.

I don't see what is so complicated about understanding these exclusivity statement from the Father as pertaining to our creation and not to every creation everywhere.

The Eloheim (Council of the Gods) is a quorum.
And just as your ward has an Elders quorum and my ward has an Elder's quorum, why should there not be many Quorums of Gods in existence?  Even if we only have to do with one group.

Edited May 11, 2016 by JLHPROF

[consiglieri]

21 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

If the father is a Celestial being is there anything higher than Celestial?
There are kingdoms of a higher order than the Celestial, then it stands to reason that there are beings of a higher order than the Celestial too.

I think the scriptures support you in this.

Section 130 describes the celestial kingdom where God dwells, and further says that those who enter the celestial kingdom will receive a white stone.

But what is made known through the white stone?

Here is the passage:

 

Quote

 

 D&C 130:10 Then the white stone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known;

 11 And a white stone is given to each of those who come into the celestial kingdom, whereon is a new name written, which no man knoweth save he that receiveth it. The new name is the key word.

 

If the white stone given to those who enter the celestial kingdom makes known things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms, what are we left to presume?