Jump to content
Seriously No Politics ×

First vision accounts getting detailed attention in CES devotional


Recommended Posts

6 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Why is it a stretch to say that both kinds of cravings and desires continue into the next life?

Would a physical craving for a spousal relationship cease at death? Or is it just one specific kind of physical craving that ceases at death?

As I've stated previously on multiple occasions, I view homsexuality as a disorder that, like all disorders pertaining to mortality, will not be perpetuated beyond the grave. The body is left behind after death and is made whole in the resurrection.

 

Link to comment
33 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Some people find the differences significant, and they scrutinize accordingly. For me, the account is interesting because of its absence in early LDS history and in the recollections of those around Joseph, both friend and foe. I don't know what it means, but it's interesting.

History is at best an incomplete and imperfect record of reality. With that in mind, best not to rely on it inordinately.

 

Link to comment
51 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I was just messing with you, Scott. :)

You misunderstood me, then missed my post where I sought to clarify that I was agreeing with you, and now you're trying to save face for continuing to batter me. Admit it, jkwilliams. :nea:

Edited by Scott Lloyd
Link to comment
4 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

As I've stated previously on multiple occasions, I view homsexuality as a disorder that, like all disorders pertaining to mortality, will not be perpetuated beyond the grave. The body is left behind after death and is made whole in the resurrection.

 

What kind of disorder? Physical? Emotional? Mental? Social?

What I don't understand, and you haven't explained, is how a physical resurrection heals a disorder that isn't physical?

Link to comment
2 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

You misunderstood me, then missed my post where I sought to clarify that I was agreeing with you, and now your* trying to save face for continuing to batter me. Admit it, jkwilliams.

*you're

I normally resist the urge to correct typos like that but I know that, like me, you'd appreciate the gesture ;)

Link to comment
5 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

You misunderstood me, then missed my post where I sought to clarify that I was agreeing with you, and now your trying to save face for continuing to batter me. Admit it, jkwilliams.

I was not trying to batter you, Scott, but I'm sorry if I misread you. 

Link to comment
19 minutes ago, canard78 said:

*you're

I normally resist the urge to correct typos like that but I know that, like me, you'd appreciate the gesture ;)

I actually caught it and went back and fixed it before I saw your post. But thanks just the same.

As I've said on past occasions, I don't claim to write flawlessly on first draft, but I'm perfectionist enough that I'll go back and fix an error if I spot it. That's why nearly all my posts have "edited" time stamps on them.

Edited to add:

Damn. I made an error in this post as well. canard78 is going to spot it before I have time to fix it.

 

Edited by Scott Lloyd
Link to comment
1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

What kind of disorder? Physical? Emotional? Mental? Social?

What I don't understand, and you haven't explained, is how a physical resurrection heals a disorder that isn't physical?

How can I explain a divine miracle of any sort, let alone one as comprehensive and supernal as the universal resurrection brought about by the healing power of Christ's sacrifice? Isn't being unexplainable one of the things that makes a miracle miraculous?

Besides, many people argue that homosexuality is physical in that people are born with it.

Edited to add:

Often priesthood blessings are administered for afflictions that are not physical in nature. They may be emotional or mental.* When healing occurs by virtue of the priesthood blessing, we don't question the mechanism by which it has happened. We just accept it as a blessing from God.

 

*When a priesthood holder consecrates oil, typically he will consecrate it for "the blessing of the sick and the afflicted," indicating that priesthood blessings are not just for physical illness.

 

Edited by Scott Lloyd
Link to comment
46 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Would a physical craving for a spousal relationship cease at death? Or is it just one specific kind of physical craving that ceases at death?

I think that since there is no body, there are no physical stimuli in the spirit world, and no physical cravings. This is one reason even the righteous view it as a prison. We do bring with us our memories, thoughts, desires, emotions, etc., and inasmuch as we have brought these into alignment with the companionship of the Holy Ghost, we are prepared for a better resurrection. Of course some of that perfecting process must occur in the spirit world, and for this reason the Gospel is preached, and both the ministers and the recipients are edified and perfected as they progress toward their “last day” of resurrection and judgement.

The spirit and body are meant to be connected to function optimally; in the eternal world this brings a fulness of joy and in this world offers a fulness of experience and probation.

Not all emotional cravings (even spousal) are wholesome, righteous or congruent with the covenants of God. These need to be tamed, healed, etc. It is said that these are easier dealt with while in the flesh, and I believe that is because the same connection that makes a fullness of joy possible in the resurrection also makes joy in the Gospel possible in the mortal realm. I think the Lord’s Atonement greatly facilitates that healing of cravings that are found to be no fault of the soul suffering from them, and facilitates through faith the healing of cravings that are result of unwarranted nurturing. For example, many cravings pertaining to behavior and relationships (in this instance we are talking sexual) are poor substitutes for the companionship of the Holy Ghost and less-than-ideal coping mechanisms that cannot bring true wholeness.

So I think any and all cravings of and in the flesh can have an emotional component that calls for adjustment and healing.

Link to comment
1 hour ago, CV75 said:

I think the physical cravings to put gender attractions into sexual practice cease with death, but the emotional craving can continue until its possessor chooses to submit and channel it into the far greater blessings and the person's spirit is sanctified in understanding of the Lord's plan. And of course the resurrection promises perfect brains and bodies that can benefit according to the glory of the spirit by which they are quickened.

Despite what most Mormons want to paint homosexuals like, it is the emotional connection that is the essence of who we are attracted to.  The sex, just like in straight people is a fulfilment of that connection.  For me, wiping myself of the love I have for my beloved partner makes heaven unappealing.  I would imagine many straight people would feel the same way.  

You are basically saying that while reparative therapy does not work on earth, somehow it will when we die.  If it can work in heaven, why can't it work here.  Call me skeptical.

Link to comment
9 minutes ago, california boy said:

Despite what most Mormons want to paint homosexuals like, it is the emotional connection that is the essence of who we are attracted to.  The sex, just like in straight people is a fulfilment of that connection.  For me, wiping myself of the love I have for my beloved partner makes heaven unappealing.  I would imagine many straight people would feel the same way.  

You are basically saying that while reparative therapy does not work on earth, somehow it will when we die.  If it can work in heaven, why can't it work here.  Call me skeptical.

I'm glad you have a loving partner and you have found happiness and joy in that relationship. Life is good, no matter what other people tell you.

Link to comment
19 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I'm glad you have a loving partner and you have found happiness and joy in that relationship. Life is good, no matter what other people tell you.

As I said earlier in this thread, my chief concern is for people who want to live according to the laws and commandments of God and can be blessed by the assurance that they will not be stuck forever with homosexual tendencies. That the healing power of the Savior's resurrection and atonement applies just as much to unwanted sexual attraction as it does to anything else.

They are entitled to receive that assurance if it is in accordance with the position of the Church. And we know that it is.

Edited by Scott Lloyd
Link to comment
8 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

As I said earlier in this thread, my chief concern is for people who want to live according to the laws and commandments of God and can be blessed by the assurance that they will not be stuck forever with homosexual tendencies. That the healing power of the Savior's resurrection and atonement applies just as much to unwanted sexual attraction as it does to anything else.

They are entitled to receive that assurance if it is in accordance with the position of the Church. And we know that it is.

I wasn't responding to you but to the idea that homosexuality is nothing more than "cravings" that will be "fixed" in the next life, implying that people like california boy can't be happy and fulfilled in this life. Love is more than sexual desire.

Link to comment
52 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I'm glad you have a loving partner and you have found happiness and joy in that relationship. Life is good, no matter what other people tell you.

I am a very lucky guy.  I thank God for the blessings in my life.

Link to comment
43 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

As I said earlier in this thread, my chief concern is for people who want to live according to the laws and commandments of God and can be blessed by the assurance that they will not be stuck forever with homosexual tendencies. That the healing power of the Savior's resurrection and atonement applies just as much to unwanted sexual attraction as it does to anything else.

They are entitled to receive that assurance if it is in accordance with the position of the Church. And we know that it is.

I am sure CB is just so happy that he is not "stuck" with loving the one he is with.  I know what you are saying but that sounds horrible. 

Link to comment
39 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I am sure CB is just so happy that he is not "stuck" with loving the one he is with.  I know what you are saying but that sounds horrible. 

He is entitled to his own beliefs in this matter and to come to terms with them however he will.

But what has been repeated over and over on this board (and, no doubt, elsewhere) is that, within the Mormon paradigm, there is "no hope" for those beset with homosexuality and who don't want any part of it, because they are doomed to endure it forever.

That is a falsehood. The Church does not teach that. I have documented that the Church teaches just the opposite. And those with homosexual tendencies who are determined to obey the laws and commandments of God are entitled to know that, for whatever assurance and hope that it can bring them.

Again, they are the ones I sympathize with and desire to bring comfort to.

Edited by Scott Lloyd
Link to comment
3 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

He is entitled to his own beliefs in this matter and to come to terms with them however he will.

But what has been repeated over and over on this board (and, no doubt, elsewhere) is that, within the Mormon paradigm, there is "no hope" for those beset with homosexuality and don't want any part of it, because they are doomed to endure it forever.

That is a falsehood. The Church does not teach that. I have documented that the Church teaches just the opposite. And those with homsexual tendencies who are determined to obey the laws and commandments of God are entitled to know that, for whatever assurance and hope that it can bring them.

Again, they are the ones I sympathize with and desire to bring comfort to.

Like I say, I do understand where YOU are coming from.  I guess it was just the word "stuck"..that through me.  No matter what, we can't diminish the love the one has for another.  But I see your point.  For CB..I wish him great hope to be with his partner forever.

Link to comment
15 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Like I say, I do understand where YOU are coming from.  I guess it was just the word "stuck"..that through me.  No matter what, we can't diminish the love the one has for another.  But I see your point.  For CB..I wish him great hope to be with his partner forever.

You are a very compassionate person.

 

Link to comment
2 hours ago, california boy said:

Despite what most Mormons want to paint homosexuals like, it is the emotional connection that is the essence of who we are attracted to.  The sex, just like in straight people is a fulfilment of that connection.  For me, wiping myself of the love I have for my beloved partner makes heaven unappealing.  I would imagine many straight people would feel the same way.  

You are basically saying that while reparative therapy does not work on earth, somehow it will when we die.  If it can work in heaven, why can't it work here.  Call me skeptical.

It seems pretty clear to me that you didn't understand a word I wrote!

But it's all there for you to review until you understand.

Here: I copy-and-pasted what I wrote to make it easy for you:

I believe we carry all of our emotional appetites into the spirit world, where we can continue to reign them in by the power and companionship of the Holy Spirit until we fill our souls with that exceeding great joy the Lord provides through His covenants, if we are only willing (1 Nephi 8:12). Everyone is given the opportunity to do this.

I think the physical cravings to put gender attractions into sexual practice cease with death, but the emotional craving can continue until its possessor chooses to submit and channel it into the far greater blessings and the person's spirit is sanctified in understanding of the Lord's plan. And of course the resurrection promises perfect brains and bodies that can benefit according to the glory of the spirit by which they are quickened.

The Atonement enables us to change into godly people. Just as the resurrection occurs sometime after mortality, so does the perfection of our becoming like Heavenly Father.

In the spirit world, I think that since there is no body, there are no physical stimuli and no physical cravings in that world. This is one reason even the righteous view it as a prison. We do bring with us our memories, thoughts, desires, emotions, etc., and inasmuch as we have brought these into alignment with the companionship of the Holy Ghost, we are prepared for a better resurrection. Of course some of that perfecting process must occur in the spirit world, and for this reason the Gospel is preached, and both the ministers and the recipients are edified and perfected as they progress toward their “last day” of resurrection and judgement.

The spirit and body are meant to be connected to function optimally; in the eternal world this brings a fulness of joy and in this world offers a fulness of experience and probation.

Not all emotional cravings (even spousal) are wholesome, righteous or congruent with the covenants of God. These need to be tamed, healed, etc. It is said that these are easier dealt with while in the flesh, and I believe that is because the same connection that makes a fullness of joy possible in the resurrection also makes joy in the Gospel possible in the mortal realm. I think the Lord’s Atonement greatly facilitates that healing of cravings that are found to be no fault of the soul suffering from them, and facilitates through faith the healing of cravings that are result of unwarranted nurturing. For example, many cravings pertaining to behavior and relationships (in this instance we are talking sexual) are poor substitutes for the companionship of the Holy Ghost and less-than-ideal coping mechanisms that cannot bring true wholeness.

So I think any and all cravings of and in the flesh can have an emotional component that calls for adjustment and healing.

Where did I ever once mention sexual feelings in terms of homo-, hetero-, or any other kind? Hint: I didn't! So cut out the misrepresentations and accusations -- that is the tendency you really need to worry about!

Edited by CV75
Link to comment
16 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

Some people find the differences significant, and they scrutinize accordingly. For me, the account is interesting because of its absence in early LDS history and in the recollections of those around Joseph, both friend and foe. I don't know what it means, but it's interesting.

Fine, by all means scrutinize........But if you are a Christian (atheists get a hall pass here, since they believe none of it), start from Gospels before jumping Joseph's "First Vision" Bandwagon, because they are ridiculed by historians on this matter (I'm not a historian).

Link to comment
12 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

Fine, by all means scrutinize........But if you are a Christian (atheists get a hall pass here, since they believe none of it), start from Gospels before jumping Joseph's "First Vision" Bandwagon, because they are ridiculed by historians on this matter (I'm not a historian).

I am not asking for permission to scrutinize. I think the absence of any mention of the First Vision among Joseph's friends and family (and foes) makes no sense if the account in Joseph Smith - History is accurate, but I'm not sure what to make of it. I would say I'm kind of a hopeful agnostic at this point, so maybe I get a temporary hall pass?

Link to comment

Back on the topic of the First Vision-

I attended Gospel Essentials class on Sunday where the lesson was about the modern church and the focus was the first vision.

This class was mostly attended by less active and non-members. Any guesses about how the first vision was handled?

The Joseph Smith History was read. THAT is what literally happened. Anyone who says differently is under the power of Satan. It's as if no one has even heard of the various first vision accounts, or the firesides, or any other treatment of multiple accounts. It's what they continue to teach new/potential members. It's a real shame.

Link to comment
16 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

History is at best an incomplete and imperfect record of reality. With that in mind, best not to rely on it inordinately.

 

A strange thing to say from an adherent of a church built entirely on historical truth claims.

The First Vision is a historical claim.  But we shouldn't "rely on it inordinately."

Joseph Smith having the gold plates is a historical claim.  But we shouldn't "rely on it inordinately."

Angelic restoration of Priesthood is a historical claim.  But we shouldn't "rely on it inordinately."

Are you sure this is a road you want to go down, Scott?  ;)

 

 

Link to comment
1 minute ago, consiglieri said:

A strange thing to say from an adherent of a church built entirely on historical truth claims.

The First Vision is a historical claim.  But we shouldn't "rely on it inordinately."

Joseph Smith having the gold plates is a historical claim.  But we shouldn't "rely on it inordinately."

Angelic restoration of Priesthood is a historical claim.  But we shouldn't "rely on it inordinately."

Are you sure this is a road you want to go down, Scott?  ;)

 

 

Hey, I'm with Scott on this one!

Link to comment
41 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I am not asking for permission to scrutinize. I think the absence of any mention of the First Vision among Joseph's friends and family (and foes) makes no sense if the account in Joseph Smith - History is accurate, but I'm not sure what to make of it. I would say I'm kind of a hopeful agnostic at this point, so maybe I get a temporary hall pass?

Okay, jk, are you looking to make sense of all this? What part of Gospels makes sense? what part of 5 books of Genesis make sense...

Yes I admit in my early skeptic years I did pile on Mormon History but I realized quickly the fish smelled from head, not the tail......

Link to comment
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...