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First vision accounts getting detailed attention in CES devotional


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6 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Your prerogative.

But your speculative conclusions are not binding on me.

 

What an odd response.  Of course someone's opinions about you are not 'binding' on you.

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5 minutes ago, ttribe said:

What an odd response.  Of course someone's opinions about you are not 'binding' on you.

Just establishing boundaries.

I cannot force you to hold a certain opinion about me, but neither am I obliged to accept the opinion you do hold.

 

Edited by Scott Lloyd
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41 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I'm with Scott that the belief expressed by Elder Rector doesn't ring true, but obviously some people believe it. 

Here is the passage that Elder Rector quoted in that address:

 

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33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.

 34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.

 

I read this as saying that if one is predisposed to do evil, that predisposition is apt to continue in the post-mortal existence, unless one overcomes that predisposition beforehand. (The spirits that followed Lucifer are an example of spirit beings who have such a predisposition.)

I don't read it as saying that physical or physiological conditions or maladies that compel one to behave in a certain way will be perpetuated beyond the grave. My reasoning from the scriptures leads me to the opposite conclusion, in fact.

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51 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Statements from Church leaders on official Church websites say otherwise.

Moreover, I believe the assurance given by Amulek applies to more than just physical conditions.

Statements like Elder Packer's when he asked "why would a loving Father do that", which was later removed from the conference transcript? Or are you referring again to the Q&A answer by Elder Wickham of the 70?

How does that square with what you said previously?

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I remember hearing this while growing up, and I have to say it doesn't ring true to me.

I could conceive, perhaps, of a psychological disposition to continue ungodly tendencies, but my understanding is that at death, the body is left in the grave while the spirit goes to the spirit world. Hence, any physical cravings belonging to the body would thus be left behind.

As for the resurrection, I understand from the teaching of Amulek in Alma 2 that the body will be resurrected in a whole state; that is, all maladies, deformities, injuries -- congenital or otherwise -- will be removed in the resurrection.

What I keep hearing from the gay lobby is that people who are homosexual were "born that way." If this is true, then homosexuality would be a condition of mortality that will not be perpetuated beyond the grave.

You spoke specifically about physical issues cured by the resurrection. You also specifically stated that you could conceive a psychological disposition to continue certain tendencies. But you're also claiming that h0mosxuality couldn't continue in the next life. I'm not sure why that is so inconceivable. Are you claiming that the physical resurrection also cures maladies of the mind and spirit? Just curious because I'm not following your logic.

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1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Here is the passage that Elder Rector quoted in that address:

I read this as saying that if one is predisposed to do evil, that predisposition is apt to continue in the post-mortal existence, unless one overcomes that predisposition beforehand. (The spirits that followed Lucifer are an example of spirit beings who have such a predisposition.)

I don't read it as saying that physical or physiological conditions or maladies that compel one to behave in a certain way will be perpetuated beyond the grave. My reasoning from the scriptures leads me to the opposite conclusion, in fact.

He directly said that people who are addicted to tobacco, for example, will still crave tobacco in the spirit world, but it will be a hell to them because there won't be any tobacco to be had there. I don't know how else to read what he said. As I said, I agree with you that this doesn't ring true, but it's pretty clear what Elder Rector was saying. Heaven forbid that he get anything wrong, no matter how minor.

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1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

Here's Hartman Rector in general conference, October 1970:

I was definitely taught that...

By the way: once upon a time this thread was about the first vision. What are we talking about now? The POTF?

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2 minutes ago, canard78 said:

I was definitely taught that...

By the way: once upon a time this thread was about the first vision. What are we talking about now? The POTF?

Beats me how we got onto the topic of temptations in the spirit world, but here we are. 

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54 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Statements like Elder Packer's when he asked "why would a loving Father do that", which was later removed from the conference transcript? Or are you referring again to the Q&A answer by Elder Wickham of the 70?

 

No. I am alluding specifically to the statements on the Church website by Elder Oaks and Elder Wickman, and the statement on mormonsandgays.org,  an official site that was prepared under the direction of the leadership of the Church.

HJW, don't tell me you have forgotten again already! Are you going to be insisting again next week that the Church has never taken any position on whether homosexuality continues after mortality?

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You spoke specifically about physical issues cured by the resurrection. You also specifically stated that you could conceive a psychological disposition to continue certain tendencies. But you're also claiming that h0mosxuality couldn't continue in the next life. I'm not sure why that is so inconceivable. Are you claiming that the physical resurrection also cures maladies of the mind and spirit? Just curious because I'm not following your logic.

As I have already stated, it doesn't seem to me consistent with the justice and mercy of God that conditions one has striven to conquer in mortality would then follow one into the hereafter, be they physiological or psychological.

Again, my reading of the passage cited by Elder Rector is that it refers to a predisposition to do evil, and that is a function of free will more than anything else.

Edited by Scott Lloyd
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20 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

He directly said that people who are addicted to tobacco, for example, will still crave tobacco in the spirit world, but it will be a hell to them because there won't be any tobacco to be had there. I don't know how else to read what he said. As I said, I agree with you that this doesn't ring true, but it's pretty clear what Elder Rector was saying. Heaven forbid that he get anything wrong, no matter how minor.

Got it.

I'm saying I disagree with Elder Rector in this.

And, strange as it may seem, I am agreeing with you.

 

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25 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Here is the passage that Elder Rector quoted in that address:

 

I read this as saying that if one is predisposed to do evil, that predisposition is apt to continue in the post-mortal existence, unless one overcomes that predisposition beforehand. (The spirits that followed Lucifer are an example of spirit beings who have such a predisposition.)

I don't read it as saying that physical or physiological conditions or maladies that compel one to behave in a certain way will be perpetuated beyond the grave. My reasoning from the scriptures leads me to the opposite conclusion, in fact.

But is the predisposition to do evil the only predisposition that continues? For example, after I die and before I'm resurrected I can imagine feeling the desire to have spousal relations with my wife. There's nothing evil about that. Or what about the desire to taste my favorite food?

In other words, it would be impossible to eliminate every deposition developed in this life, or carried into this life from the pre-mortal life, because they are a part of who we are. If we don't carry who we are into the next life, then what's the point of experiencing this life beyond getting a body?

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22 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

But is the predisposition to do evil the only predisposition that continues? For example, after I die and before I'm resurrected I can imagine feeling the desire to have spousal relations with my wife. There's nothing evil about that. Or what about the desire to taste my favorite food?

In other words, it would be impossible to eliminate every deposition developed in this life, or carried into this life from the pre-mortal life, because they are a part of who we are. If we don't carry who we are into the next life, then what's the point of experiencing this life beyond getting a body?

Those who strive to obey God in all things will enjoy in the next life the blessings that flow from obedience in this one. If they have the attitude of repentance, their shortcomings, whatever they may be, will be swallowed up in the atoning sacrifice of the Savior and Deliverer, Jesus Christ, and they will be glorified and perfected.

What matters is one's exercise of his own moral agency.

What, you ask, is the point of getting a body? To grow through the righteous exercise of agency.

Edited by Scott Lloyd
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45 minutes ago, canard78 said:

I was definitely taught that...

By the way: once upon a time this thread was about the first vision. What are we talking about now? The POTF?

 

42 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Beats me how we got onto the topic of temptations in the spirit world, but here we are. 

You all have my permission -- if you think you need it -- to return to the topic of the OP. I think I've said what I need to on the family proclamation and the erroneous notion that homosexuality continues beyond the grave.

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2 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

You all have my permission -- if you think you need it -- to return to the topic of the OP. I think I've said what I need to on the family proclamation and the erroneous notion that homosexuality continues beyond the grave.

So, tobacco addiction does continue beyond the grave, but homoerotic desire does not. Got it.

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On 5/22/2016 at 5:47 PM, longview said:

I have been reading the Bible thru this past two months (after having read the BoM several times for the past few years).  I am now in Deuteronomy.  Abraham and Lot (Book of Genesis) were taught by the Lord that homosexuality in the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah was a grievous abomination.  I would count each individual homosexuals for my totals.  B:)

I agree with you and HJW that it would take a considerable amount of time to list every passage.  So maybe I should have said "MANY" instead of hundreds.  :wacko:

 

I actually think you've drastically overestimated the number of scriptures that condemn homosexuality.  I'd be surprised if you could find 10.

I'm also mystified by those who are so devoutly influenced by what the Bible teaches against homosexuality, but with careful ammendation when it comes to the penalty God requires:

 

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13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/ot/lev/20.13?lang=eng

 

So we're saying that at some point, God changed his mind about wanting homosexuals being put to death, but He didn't change His mind about it being an abomination.  When was that revelation?

Edited by cinepro
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45 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Got it.

I'm saying I disagree with Elder Rector in this.

And, strange as it may seem, I am agreeing with you.

There is a powerful emotional component to tobacco addiction, which i think can easily be carried into the spirit world: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK53018/

"According to Hogarth and Duka (2006), considerable evidence suggests that nicotine- conditioned effects are mediated by a smoker’s expectations of the effects of nicotine coupled with an appetitive emotional response that reflects the positive value of nicotine to the smoker (e.g., pleasure or relaxation)."

I do believe we carry all of our emotional appetites into the spirit world, where we can continue to reign them in by the power and companionship of the Holy Spirit until we fill our souls with that exceeding great joy the Lord provides through His covenants, if we are only willing (1 Nephi 8:12). Everyone is given the opportunity to do this.

Edited by CV75
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10 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Those who strive to obey God in all things will enjoy in the next life the blessings that flow from obedience in this one. If they have the attitude of repentance, their shortcomings, whatever they may be, will be swallowed up in the atoning sacrifice of the Savior and Deliverer, Jesus Christ, and they will be glorified and perfected.

What matters is one's exercise of his own moral agency.

What, you ask, is the point of getting a body? To grow through the righteous exercise of agency.

We are all in the process of becoming something. We are all a mixture of good, bad, ugly, and average. In the spirit world will we suddenly forget what our favorite foods taste like or no longer have any desire for physical touch? That does sound hellish.

Having the attitude of repentance is great but it doesn't mean our desires, personality, and predispositions will magically disappear or rearrange. I don't understand how resurrection will magically make someone not gay. It's not a physical ailment. It is part of the personality, psychology, and soul of the individual. It's part of who they are. The atonement resurrects the body and it washes us clean of our past sinful behaviors but it doesn't instantly morph us into something we're not.

Read Elder Oaks "The Challenge to Become". The parable he shares illustrates my point. The father could not give his son His character. The son had to become a person of character and become like his father. There was no magical transference of godly character. To me, claiming that a person suddenly has an important characteristic change, sounds like claiming God makes us what he wants instead of allowing us to become.

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8 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

You all have my permission -- if you think you need it -- to return to the topic of the OP. I think I've said what I need to on the family proclamation and the erroneous notion that homosexuality continues beyond the grave.

I think the physical cravings to put gender attractions into sexual practice cease with death, but the emotional craving can continue until its possessor chooses to submit and channel it into the far greater blessings and the person's spirit is sanctified in understanding of the Lord's plan. And of course the resurrection promises perfect brains and bodies that can benefit according to the glory of the spirit by which they are quickened.

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27 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

So, tobacco addiction does continue beyond the grave, but homoerotic desire does not. Got it.

Not even remotely what I said.

Did you miss the post where I said I agree with you and disagree with Elder Rector? Why are you continuing to hammer me on this? I explicitly said I do not think tobacco addiction continues beyond the grave.

I've noticed that with the new, supposedly improved, board software, it can take 15 minutes or longer for posts to show up. Maybe that's your problem.

Edited by Scott Lloyd
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13 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

It is part of the personality, psychology, and soul of the individual. It's part of who they are. The atonement resurrects the body and it washes us clean of our past sinful behaviors but it doesn't instantly morph us into something we're not.

The Atonement does enable us to change into godly people. Just as the resurrection occurs some time after mortality, so does the perfection of our becoming like Heavenly Father.

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24 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

We are all in the process of becoming something. We are all a mixture of good, bad, ugly, and average. In the spirit world will we suddenly forget what our favorite foods taste like or no longer have any desire for physical touch? That does sound hellish.

Having the attitude of repentance is great but it doesn't mean our desires, personality, and predispositions will magically disappear or rearrange. I don't understand how resurrection will magically make someone not gay. It's not a physical ailment. It is part of the personality, psychology, and soul of the individual. It's part of who they are. The atonement resurrects the body and it washes us clean of our past sinful behaviors but it doesn't instantly morph us into something we're not.

 

Quite a stretch to equate a taste for strawberry shortcake with an inclination toward sexual perversion.

 

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Read Elder Oaks "The Challenge to Become". The parable he shares illustrates my point. The father could not give his son His character. The son had to become a person of character and become like his father. There was no magical transference of godly character. To me, claiming that a person suddenly has an important characteristic change, sounds like claiming God makes us what he wants instead of allowing us to become.

The freedom to choose applies to this life. And it does not carry with it the freedom to escape the consequences of choice.

One does not have license to continue sinning while in the presence of God or while inhabiting one of the degrees of glory. So if that is what you mean by denying "an important characteristic change," I think there's a surprise in store for you.

 

Edited by Scott Lloyd
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1 minute ago, Atheist Mormon said:

I'm surprised people so closely scrutinize Joseph's first account. Especially Christians who should understand much better since they have to deal varying accounts of four Gospels. 

Some people find the differences significant, and they scrutinize accordingly. For me, the account is interesting because of its absence in early LDS history and in the recollections of those around Joseph, both friend and foe. I don't know what it means, but it's interesting.

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18 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Quite a stretch to equate a taste for strawberry shortcake with an inclination toward sexual perversion.

Why is it a stretch to say that both kinds of cravings and desires continue into the next life?

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CV75- I think the physical cravings to put gender attractions into sexual practice cease with death, but the emotional craving can continue until its possessor chooses to submit and channel it into the far greater blessings and the person's spirit is sanctified in understanding of the Lord's plan.

Would a physical craving for a spousal relationship cease at death? Or is it just one specific kind of physical craving that ceases at death?

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