How did early LDS understand D&C 84: 4-5?

[TheSkepticChristian]

Did early LDS see it as just a commandment? If they expected a temple in their life time, then why did God give them that revelation? What is the point of having scriptures or prophecies that LDSaints misunderstand? Is there any evidence that someone didn't expect that temple in their life time?  Same in the Bible, what is the point of having so many mysterious scriptures?  

Sincere question

Its D&C 84: 4-5

 

 

 

 

Edited January 29, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian

[Bobbieaware]

3 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

Did early LDS see it as just a commandment? If they expected a temple in their life time, then why did God give them that revelation? What is the point of having scriptures or prophecies that LDSaints misunderstand? Is there any evidence that someone didn't expect that temple in their life time?  Same in the Bible, what is the point of having so many mysterious scriptures?  

Sincere question 

Are you sure the verses you want critiqued are D$C 124:4,5? I see nothing about a temple in these verses.

[TheSkepticChristian]

2 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

Are you sure the verses you want critiqued are D$C 124:4,5? I see nothing about a temple in these verses.

It's D&C  84: 4-5 . How are questions criticisms? 

[RevTestament]

4 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

It's D&C  84: 4-5 . How are questions criticisms? 

Matt 24:

 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of atrumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summeris nigh:

 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Famous verses used by preterists. Here "generation" was either the generation of men or something else. I proffer it was the generation of the earth He was speaking of - a prophetic generation. In speaking of the temple He was not addressing men, but His words related to the temple. I believe He was speaking of the earthly or prophetic generation like He is speaking of when He speaks of the regeneration. The regeneration is the next earth, and this generation is this earth. So the promise of that temple building being raised in this generation has a long time yet to be fulfilled...

[TheSkepticChristian]

1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

Famous verses used by preterists. Here "generation" was either the generation of men or something else. I proffer it was the generation of the earth He was speaking of - a prophetic generation. In speaking of the temple He was not addressing men, but His words related to the temple. I believe He was speaking of the earthly or prophetic generation like He is speaking of when He speaks of the regeneration. The regeneration is the next earth, and this generation is this earth. So the promise of that temple building being raised in this generation has a long time yet to be fulfilled...

That is very nice to know, but can you please answer my questions in post #1? 

[RevTestament]

5 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

That is very nice to know, but can you please answer my questions in post #1? 

TBH I don't really care how early LDS saw it. That is not dispositive. I care how it should be interpreted, which I addressed. Sorry if you don't find that helpful.

 

[JLHPROF]

D&C 84:4 Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation.
5 For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house.

No idea how the early saints viewed it.  They probably viewed it literally until they started dying off.  You would have to research early commentary on D&C 84 to find out.
I would imagine they viewed it the same way as the early Christians viewed Matthew 24/Luke 21.

Not sure why it matters since generation can mean many things.

[JAHS]

There is a  related revelation in Doctrine and Covenants 124:49-51, in which the Lord explains why the task of building the temple is on hold and not required of his servants at the moment.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, that when I give a commandment to any of the sons of men to do a work unto my name, and those sons of men go with all their might and with all they have to perform that work, and cease not their diligence, and their enemies come upon them and hinder them from performing that work, behold, it behooveth me to require that work no more at the hands of those sons of men, but to accept of their offerings.

And the iniquity and transgression of my holy laws and commandments I will visit upon the heads of those who hindered my work, unto the third and fourth generation, so long as they repent not, and hate me, saith the Lord God.

 Therefore, for this cause have I accepted the offerings of those whom I commanded to build up a city and a house unto my name, in Jackson county, Missouri, and were hindered by their enemies, saith the Lord your God.

Then there is of course the definition of generation. Perhaps it refers to those people living during the time of the restoration (See verse 2 of Sec 84) of the Church which is ongoing now.

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

That is very nice to know, but can you please answer my questions in post #1?

Did early LDS see it as just a commandment? "Just a commandment" as opposed to what?  A prophecy?  If a commandment, they may simply have failed to be worthy to keep it.  If a prophecy, even prophecies are contingent on agency and choices.  Prophecy isn't a crystal ball that removes free will.

If they expected a temple in their life time, then why did God give them that revelation? I don't see what expectation has to do with it.

What is the point of having scriptures or prophecies that LDSaints misunderstand? So that those with ears to hear and eyes to see can find the truth.  Like Christ and his parables.

Is there any evidence that someone didn't expect that temple in their life time? No idea.  You'd have to read all their journals and discourses.

 Same in the Bible, what is the point of having so many mysterious scriptures?   To cause us to live by faith and prayer and to study.

Further Reading: http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Alleged_false_prophecies/Independence_temple_to_be_built_"in_this_generation"

[theplains]

12 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

Did early LDS see it as just a commandment? If they expected a temple in their life time, then why did God give them that revelation? What is the point of having scriptures or prophecies that LDSaints misunderstand? Is there any evidence that someone didn't expect that temple in their life time?  Same in the Bible, what is the point of having so many mysterious scriptures?  

Sincere question

Its D&C 84: 4-5

It refers to a future time when the Latter-day Saints will build the New Jerusalem prior
to the return of Christ. This is discussed more in Coming of the Lord.

Thanks,
Jim

[Bobbieaware]

21 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

It's D&C  84: 4-5 . How are questions criticisms? 

Look up the definition of the word critique. It means to anylize, not necessarily to criticize

[TheSkepticChristian]

On 1/29/2016 at 9:47 AM, RevTestament said:

TBH I don't really care how early LDS saw it

that was my question, I think it is important. Isn't the Holy Spirit the same yesterday, today, and forever? 

 

On 1/29/2016 at 10:57 AM, JLHPROF said:

"Just a commandment" as opposed to what?  A prophecy?  If a commandment, they may simply have failed to be worthy to keep it.  If a prophecy, even prophecies are contingent on agency and choices.  Prophecy isn't a crystal ball that removes free will.

that is interesting, but I am asking how early LDS interpreted that scripture. 

 

[TheSkepticChristian]

On 1/29/2016 at 3:16 PM, theplains said:

It refers to a future time when the Latter-day Saints will build the New Jerusalem prior
to the return of Christ. This is discussed more in Coming of the Lord.

thanks, but can you please read my questions again in post number 1? 

[JLHPROF]

8 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

that is interesting, but I am asking how early LDS interpreted that scripture.

 

I realize that.  I don't think there is a readily available source to answer that across the Church membership..

If you want to go digging through the Millennial Star, Journals of Discourses, History of the Church and personal journals for all references to that section I think that's the only way you will find out.

[theplains]

On 03/02/2016 at 1:57 PM, TheSkepticChristian said:

thanks, but can you please read my questions again in post number 1? 

If D&C is a true revelation, then it's a commandment which will materialize before the Second 
Coming. Personally, I don't believe the construction will ever begin because they don't own 
the land. The longer the delay to start building, the greater this revelation turns out to be
false because the time frame to the Second Coming is shrinking.  I think the LDS Church would
rather have us forget about this prophecy.  The JWs were disallusioned with the failed 1975 prophecy.
History will repeat itself here too in my opinion.

Thanks,
Jim

[The Nehor]

On 1/29/2016 at 9:09 AM, TheSkepticChristian said:

How are questions criticisms? 

Some questions are, some aren't. This is a cheap dodge.

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, theplains said:

If D&C is a true revelation, then it's a commandment which will materialize before the Second 
Coming. Personally, I don't believe the construction will ever begin because they don't own 
the land. The longer the delay to start building, the greater this revelation turns out to be
false because the time frame to the Second Coming is shrinking.  I think the LDS Church would
rather have us forget about this prophecy.  The JWs were disallusioned with the failed 1975 prophecy.
History will repeat itself here too in my opinion.

Thanks,
Jim

There is also the prophecy that the land needs to be swept clean first.
Once you see the land swept clean then you will know the "time frame".

[theplains]

On 04/02/2016 at 5:30 PM, JLHPROF said:

There is also the prophecy that the land needs to be swept clean first.
Once you see the land swept clean then you will know the "time frame".

Where?

Jim

[JLHPROF]

12 minutes ago, theplains said:

Where?

Jim

First reference -Prophetic Sayings of Heber C. Kimball to Sister Amanda H. Wilcox, p. 6.

• It seems to have originated in a conversation between Heber C. Kimball and Amanda H. Wilcox in Salt Lake City in May 1868. She reports him as saying, “The western boundaries of the State of Missouri will be swept so clean of its inhabitants that, as President Young tells us, when we return to that place, ‘There will not be left so much as a yellow dog to wag his tail.’”

Secondary reference - George, Elizabeth and Carn Burkett letter December 18, 1870

• Do not be in a hurry of going to Jackson County for the land has to be cleared and the power of God to rest upon it before we think of returning there.  I heard Joseph Smith say in my house when in Clay County that when we returned there there would not be a dog to wag his tail or move his tongue against us, none but the pure in heart will go up there and the Lord will prepare his people. They shall be clear as the sun, fair as the moon and terrible valiant as an army with banners these are virgins, the hundred and forty and four thousand that shall stand on Mount Zion, these are the bride the Lamb's wife.

[Bernard Gui]

Perhaps an answer you will accept may be found in the 1828 Webster's Dictionary...

Quote

GENERA'TION, noun The act of begetting; procreation, as of animals.

1. Production; formation; as the generation of sounds or of curves or equations.

2. A single succession in natural descent, as the children of the same parents; hence, an age. Thus we say, the third, the fourth, or the tenth generation  Genesis 15:16.

3. The people of the same period, or living at the same time.

O faithless and perverse generation  Luke 9:41.

4. Genealogy; a series of children or descendants from the same stock.

This is the book of the generations of Adam. Genesis 5:1.

5. A family; a race.

6. Progeny; offspring.

 

[consiglieri]

On ‎1‎/‎29‎/‎2016 at 9:52 AM, JLHPROF said:

D&C 84:4 Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation.
5 For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house.

This passage plainly predicts a temple to be built in the "city New Jerusalem" before those in that generation passed away.

The "city of New Jerusalem" was understood as being in Jackson County, Missouri.

A temple was not reared in that generation.

This prophecy did not come to pass.

It is as simple as that.

 

On a related note, the D&C adopts the same wording attributed to Jesus in Matthew 24, as noted above.

The Matthew 24 prophecy did not come to pass, either.

In both instances, when the generation passed in which the prophecies were made, subsequent believers made up a host of excuses to explain why.

Many of these excuses have already been put forward on this thread.

For me, it is easier to just admit the prophecy didn't come to pass and skip the excuses.

[JLHPROF]

25 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

This passage plainly predicts a temple to be built in the "city New Jerusalem" before those in that generation passed away.

The "city of New Jerusalem" was understood as being in Jackson County, Missouri.

A temple was not reared in that generation.

This prophecy did not come to pass.

It is as simple as that.

 

On a related note, the D&C adopts the same wording attributed to Jesus in Matthew 24, as noted above.

The Matthew 24 prophecy did not come to pass, either.

In both instances, when the generation passed in which the prophecies were made, subsequent believers made up a host of excuses to explain why.

Many of these excuses have already been put forward on this thread.

For me, it is easier to just admit the prophecy didn't come to pass and skip the excuses.

Prophecy is not a guarantee or a crystal ball.
Men's agency can cause any prophecy to fail or be adjusted.
That's not an excuse, just common sense.  Prophecy doesn't remove agency.

[consiglieri]

1 minute ago, JLHPROF said:

Prophecy is not a guarantee or a crystal ball.
Men's agency can cause any prophecy to fail or be adjusted.
That's not an excuse, just common sense.  Prophecy doesn't remove agency.

And yet there is no mention of the D&C 84 prophecy being conditional.

Just as there is no mention of the Matthew 24 prophecy being conditional.

The reason both prophecies failed to be realized has nothing to do with what anybody else did or did not do.

It is simply because they failed to be realized.

Or was there something people did or did not do that caused the Second Coming to be delayed 2,000 years . . . and counting?

[Bernard Gui]

Or perhaps we don't understand what generation means.

 

[Bernard Gui]

Here is how Orson Pratt interpreted it...

Quote

After we had worked in Nauvoo for a few years, and had gathered together our people from various parts of the United States and some from Great Britain, to the number of some fifteen or twenty thousand souls, in Nauvoo and the regions round about, behold the mob was again upon us and we were driven again, thus fulfilling more fully the prophecies that had been made, and we were driven here to these mountains. We came here by the direction of the servant of God, being led by him on whom the Lord had placed the great responsibility of leading this people. He brought us here, and established us in the heart of this country. Here we have extended our settlements south, north, east, and west, until the country is now populated with, as I suppose, some hundred thousand inhabitants. I do not know how many, it may be a hundred and fifty thousand for aught I know. Suffice it to say, we have over a hundred towns, cities and villages built up in the various portions of this great Basin, this desert country. We have beautified our inheritances; we have planted fruit trees in abundance and ornamental shade trees, so as to make our residences cheering and beautiful in the midst of a desert. God has been with us from the time that we came to this land, and I hope that the days of our tribulation are past. I hope this, because God promised in the year 1832 that we should, before the generation then living had passed away, return and build up the City of Zion in Jackson County; that we should return and build up the temple of the Most High where we formerly laid the cornerstone. He promised us that He would manifest Himself on that temple, that the glory of God should be upon it; and not only upon the temple, but within it, even a cloud by day and a flaming fire by night.

JD 13:362