Reaching out to our Youth in Post-Policy Mormonism

[Mystery Meat]

15 minutes ago, rockpond said:

God establishes the Law of Moses.  Christ comes and puts and end to that law.  Christ then uses a parable to explain why we should choose love and service to our neighbor over religious dogma.

I'm not confused.

You are wresting the scriptures to suit your need.

You are confused.

[rockpond]

4 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said:

You are wresting the scriptures to suit your need.

You are confused.

Nope.  Why do you think Christ identified those who passed by as a Priest and a Levite?  Why did they go to the other side of the road?  Why identify them in this way?

[smac97]

55 minutes ago, salgare said:

Those are shocking numbers, but I'm somewhat confused.  Do you believe the mama dragons are numbering suicides from our stakes as well as in the open gay communities?  Of course we can not answer that question.  Not having researched and jumping to a conclusion, I assumed the mama dragons were numbering only members of the Church who were publicly known to have gender issues.

If I'm hearing your argument correctly, you have a ... dare I call it agenda ... to protect society at large.  If your quoted numbers are correct, perhaps this is a good thing.  However I wonder if you are seeing the forest and overlooking the tree.  Where the tree is some very active in the Church young man/woman new into puberty and very confused about their sexuality.  This compounded by the weekly message of their tight culture conflicting with their feelings.

 

I do not understand the metaphor.  LDS teens are being taught a code of sexual ethics.  This code was previously shared by large swaths of society, but now fewer and fewer people adhere to it, and instead have allowed incremental degrees of permissiveness to virtually obliterate this code.

Many LDS kids struggle with "their feelings" in terms of sexuality.  Many pick up a habit of or addiction to pornography and masturbation.  Some experiment with sexual contact with members of the opposite sex.  Some experiment with sexual contact with members of the same sex.  Some act out in sexually inappropriate ways relative to family members, or inanimate objects, or animals, or other younger children, or adults.  Some resort to adding elements of violence or coercion as party of sexual behavior.

So there can be all sorts of "feelings" and behaviors pertaining to sexuality that can materialize in a teen's life.  The message of the LDS Church (I wouldn't call it a "weekly message," as it's not like we present lessons about the Law of Chastity and/or sexuality every week) is rather clear: sexual conduct is authorized between a married husband and wife, and is otherwise not allowed.

We live in an increasingly sexualized world, such that what was previously a very common and expected code of sexual conduct is now seen as antiquated or obsolete.  But it's what we believe God wants for us.  So we teach it and cope with developments in the individual lives of our children, knowing that there is a cacophony of conflicting messages being thrown at them from other sources.  And we know that teens may feel conflict between what "The World" tells them about sex and the utterly reasonable and longstanding and bona fide position taken by the LDS Church.  Where we perhaps diverge, though, is which of these influences should we encourage LDS teens to follow?

For me, the answer is . . . well, you know.  I'm not sure what your answer is.

 

Quote

I personally do view people accusing the Church or members as being the cause of suicides.  It's the culture.  Many see this as the policy encouraging an entrenchment to this culture, which causes depression and suicides of our own, not some threatening gay community.

What about the "gay culture?"  The one that teaches that "homosexual behavior" is just okey dokey?  Which "homosexual behavior" appears to substantially increase the risk of suicide?  What are your thoughts about the Netherlands study I have referenced repeatedly?

And speaking of LDS "culture," how do you reconcile your accusation that it is "the cause of suicides" with the  American Journal of Epidemiology article discussing how LDS teens (males) "who closely adhere to the dictates of their faith are less likely to commit suicide than their peers who are less active in the church," and that " a low level of religious commitment is a potential risk factor for suicide?"  Put another way, adhering to the teachings of the LDS Church appears to decrease the risk of suicide.  What are your thoughts on this?

Quote

I suppose the Church has taken the stand you suggest and put a priority on trying to protect the outer society at the expense of the inner teens.

And now you too have joined the Blame-the-Mormons-for-Teen-Suicides club.

Tell you what.  Please consider all of the foregoing questions to be rhetorical, food-for-thought types.  I will withdraw from further discussion with you.  Feel free to add whatever last words you like.

'Bye.

-Smac

d

Edited January 28, 2016 by smac97

[bluebell]

34 minutes ago, rockpond said:

That's not true.  They needed to stay ritually pure.  The implication in choosing those two characters is that they had to avoid him for that reason.

But they could do rituals to re-establish their purity. It took time and effort, but it was always an option. 

[Mystery Meat]

5 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Nope.  Why do you think Christ identified those who passed by as a Priest and a Levite?  Why did they go to the other side of the road?  Why identify them in this way?

Because they are covenant makers and should know better.

Not to mention, as bluebell points out, there were ways (symbolic of the Atonement) for them to become clean.

[Daniel2]

33 minutes ago, smac97 said:

And now Daniel2 is publicly accusing Latter-day Saints of not caring about teen suicides.

What a repellent, uncharitable bit of false accusation this is.  The Internet has Godwin's Law pertaining to Nazi comparisons.  I suppose we Latter-day Saints will have to endure our own special version of that law: "If you don't agree with us, you don't care about children murdering yourselves."

Thanks for that, Daniel!

Thanks,

-Smac

Smac,

I'd be more than happy to change my opinion if there  is more discussion and brainstorming ideas of how we could potentially stop these kids from killing themselves.

As it stands, I have seen very few comments that would lead me to believe that anyone is doing anything other than offering lip service about being concerned about it.

Would you like to prove me wrong? Please, go right ahead... That is exactly the kind of discussion and compassionate call to action that this article seems to be calling for.

D

[smac97]

Rockpond,

>  Nope.  Why do you think Christ identified those who passed by as a Priest and a Levite?  Why did they go to the other side of the road?  Why identify them in this way?

Lemme guess: Because He knew that in 2016 a fellow hiding behind a pseudonym would use this parable to publicly disparage His anointed servants?

That is what you are doing, right?  You are suggesting that the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve are, allegorically, the Priest and the Levite?

Don't be coy with your evil-speaking of the Lord's anointed, Rock!  Don't hide behind rhetorical questions.

Or, better yet, re-consider your apparent accusations.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Mystery Meat]

2 minutes ago, Daniel2 said:

Smac,

I'd be more than happy to change my opinion if there  is more discussion and brainstorming ideas of how we could potentially stop these kids from killing themselves.

As it stands, I have seen very few comments that would lead me to believe that anyone is doing anything other than offering lip service about being concerned about it.

Would you like to prove me wrong? Please, go right ahead... That is exactly the kind of discussion and compassionate call to action that this article seems to be calling for.

D

I think parents, friends, siblings, etc. need to do a better job of providing support for those they love and know who come out as gay. By support I dont mean telling them it is okay to violate God's laws and have homosexual relations, but for them to know that they are still loved and viewed as son or daughter, as applicable, if they make choices we don't agree with. I have seen a lot of progress over the years, but I am sure there is still work to do in individual cases.

[JLHPROF]

Looks like this blog post caught the Church's attention.  They've made a statement:

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865646414/LDS-Church-leaders-mourn-reported-deaths-in-Mormon-LGBT-community.html?pg=all

 

• SALT LAKE CITY — The LDS Church responded Thursday to an unverified report about suicide deaths among Mormon LGBTs.

  "We mourn with their families and friends when they feel life no longer offers hope," senior church leaders said through a spokesman.

  Wendy Montgomery, a co-founder of the Mama Dragons, a group of Mormon mothers with gay children, reported last week that she had been told 32 young LGBT Mormons have died by suicide since early November.

[smac97]

From the Deseret News:

 

Quote

SALT LAKE CITY — The LDS Church responded Thursday to an unverified report about suicide deaths among Mormon LGBTs.

"We mourn with their families and friends when they feel life no longer offers hope," senior church leaders said through a spokesman.

Wendy Montgomery, a co-founder of the Mama Dragons, a group of Mormon mothers with gay children, reported last week that she had been told 32 young LGBT Mormons have died by suicide since early November.

The individual families who told Montgomery about their losses requested privacy. The Deseret News has not been able to verify this number independently.

Given the tragedy of suicide and the alarm the report has raised in the LDS LGBT community, the Deseret News asked experts for insight and solutions. They explained exactly how parents, friends and religious congregations can help prevent suicides by thinking carefully about what they say and do and by welcoming, accepting and supporting LGBT people.

Each expert emphasized that those who may be contemplating suicide can find help from many people and places, and that families can learn to see the warning signs.

The timing of Montgomery’s report has raised concerns in the LDS LGBT community that church leaders’ Nov. 5 announcement of new policies regarding same-sex couples and their families could have contributed to increased anxiety for some. Experts say it’s impossible to pinpoint the causes of any suicide because research shows there is never a single reason.

Read the entirety of the article.  Although the number is still uncorroborated, that doesn't really matter.  As someone previously said, even one is too many.

The article has quite a bit of information about this subject, and it is very relevant to this thread. 

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

8 minutes ago, Daniel2 said:

Smac,

I'd be more than happy to change my opinion if there  is more discussion and brainstorming ideas of how we could potentially stop these kids from killing themselves.

As it stands, I have seen very few comments that would lead me to believe that anyone is doing anything other than offering lip service about being concerned about it.

Would you like to prove me wrong? Please, go right ahead... That is exactly the kind of discussion and compassionate call to action that this article seems to be calling for.

D

I'm not inclined to have a substantive discussion about such an important topic with someone who lacks even the most basic notions of decorum, respect, good faith, and decency.

Coming to an LDS message board and publicly accusing us of not caring about teen suicides is the height of boorishness.  I will not dignify your comments with anything further.

-Smac

[Nevo]

Here's another study for Smac's collection:

• Gibbs, J.J., & Goldbach, J. (2015). Religious Conflict, Sexual Identity, and Suicidal Behaviors among LGBT Young Adults. Archives of Suicide Research, 19, 472–488.

From the abstract: "LGBT young adults who mature in religious contexts have higher odds of suicidal thoughts, and more specifically chronic suicidal thoughts, as well as suicide attempts compared to other LGBT young adults."

And from the article itself:

Quote

In our study, those who experienced a religious upbringing and are currently experiencing religious conflict were most at risk of considering suicide. Further, a religious upbringing in itself does not provide protection from suicidal ideation when compared to a non-religious upbringing. Thus, it appears that a religious upbringing that includes unresolved religious and LGBT identity conflict puts an individual more at risk of suicidal thoughts.

 

There were two important clinical implications found in the current study. First, it may seem counterintuitive that when individuals choose to leave their religion in order to experience more self-acceptance that they inadvertently experience more risk for suicide. Clinicians should be aware that leaving one's religion of origin may add additional stressors that ultimately place a client at additional risk for suicide. Further, the negative impact felt from leaving one's religion due to conflict has a stronger impact than the positive indirect impact through a reduction in internalized homophobia.

 

As many LGBT young adults often experience multiple levels of loss, clinical interventions should ideally entail a plan for enhancing supportive resources without risk of further isolation from communities of historical significance to the client (i.e., loss of community, potential loss of protective belief structure). This may involve encouraging clients to be involved in communities that incorporate their religious tradition and their LGBT identity, which has been found qualitatively to be supportive (Jaspal & Cinnirella, 2010; Thumma, 1991). Second, it is apparent that LGBT young adults who experience religious identity conflict are at significant risk for suicide. When individuals experience conflict with an accepted belief structure this can cause a great deal of distress, which may lead to a desire to escape. For this reason, suicide risk assessments could be enhanced by further understanding the loss of spiritual resources and subsequent challenges adjusting to this loss.

 

Edited January 28, 2016 by Nevo

[Danzo]

32 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

When you say "only 34 data points?" I hear..."only 34 suicides" as if that is acceptable. I'll assume this isn't what you mean.

From a teen obituary I've never read...

"Pat Poone died Saturday as the result of suicide after stepping into oncoming traffic. She was from a semi-active LDS family with both parents still living in the household. Pat was not subject to any church discipline at the time of her death but was from a non-supportive family. Though witnesses claim it is possible Pat accidently stepped into traffic, Pat left a suicide note stating that she was committing suicide as a direct result of the LDS church's recent policy stigmatizing LGBT individual's and their offspring."

Honestly? You think they include this kind of stuff in public records and obituaries. The majority of suicides aren't even listed as suicide on death certificates so it must be that they aren't really suicides.

ETA- instead of being so defensive perhaps it would be okay to simply express compassion and empathy

 

I don't quite understand you.

are you opposed to data sharing?

Dragon momma's say they are collecting the data, why are they not sharing?  

If they have made the determination that 34 people have killed themselves over the policy, they must already have this information.  

They say the the data is saying that we need to change, why don't they share the data so we can learn what they did?

Why is it more important to tell us we are wrong than giving us the tools to do better?

Why are you opposed to this?  What do you have to fear from the data.

 

[Danzo]

57 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I just tell it like it is  

And you told us we were venomous!

Great way to make friends and influence people!

 

[Daniel2]

20 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Looks like this blog post caught the Church's attention.  They've made a statement:

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865646414/LDS-Church-leaders-mourn-reported-deaths-in-Mormon-LGBT-community.html?pg=all

 

• SALT LAKE CITY — The LDS Church responded Thursday to an unverified report about suicide deaths among Mormon LGBTs.

  "We mourn with their families and friends when they feel life no longer offers hope," senior church leaders said through a spokesman.

  Wendy Montgomery, a co-founder of the Mama Dragons, a group of Mormon mothers with gay children, reported last week that she had been told 32 young LGBT Mormons have died by suicide since early November.

Hallelujah!!!!!

I am so so so glad to see this report coming from the Deseret News.

I am grateful that, unlike many other reaponses we've been seeing in this thread, church leadership thoughtfully recognized (even without waiting to verify whether the numbers were accurate) the need to respond to how to help teenagers struggling with suicide instead of presuming that these mothers' pain, anguish, and call to action should only be summarily dismissed as merely an attack on the church.

Kudos for those responsible for the article for taking time encourage how to be supportive and thoughtful and helpful in such situations. My hope is that not only will this type of response trickle down into church membership, but that church leadership will themselves directly address it further in future talks, firesides, conferences, etc.

THESE are the types of responses that prove my earlier comment wrong, Smac.

Edited January 28, 2016 by Daniel2

[Jeanne]

1 minute ago, Danzo said:

And you told us we were venomous!

Great way to make friends and influence people!

 

This is what surprised me.  I know you guys are not venomous..but the comments seemed to contradict.  I am hoping I still have friends...  I, too, was very happy to see the Deseret News article.  And there you go..people working together!

[smac97]

21 minutes ago, Nevo said:

Here's another study for Smac's collection:

• Gibbs, J.J., & Goldbach, J. (2015). Religious Conflict, Sexual Identity, and Suicidal Behaviors among LGBT Young Adults. Archives of Suicide Research, 19, 472–488.

From the abstract: "LGBT young adults who mature in religious contexts have higher odds of suicidal thoughts, and more specifically chronic suicidal thoughts, as well as suicide attempts compared to other LGBT young adults."

And from the article itself:

 

And here's another:

Quote

A co-twin study found that men with same-sex partners were 6.5 times as likely as their co-twin to have attempted suicide. The higher rate was not explained by mental health or substance abuse disorders. (Herrell, R. et al (1999) “A Co-twin Control Study in Adult Men”Archives of General Psychiatry. 56, 10: 867 – 874.)

And another:

Quote

Homosexual or bisexual teenagers are more than three times as likely to attempt suicide as their heterosexual peers. (R. Garofalo, R. C. Wolf, L. S. Wissow, E. R. Woods and E. Goodman. “Sexual Orientation and Risk of Suicide Attempts Among a Representative Sample of Youth.’ Archives of Pediatric and Adolescent Medicine 153 [1999]: 487-493.)

And then there's this keeper:

Quote

GLSEN’s Executive Director Kevin Jennings speaking about how he was able to delude the Massachusetts legislature into adopting the pro-homosexual agenda for the schools in their state. “In Massachusetts the effective reframing of this issue was the key to the success of the Governor’s Commission on Gay and Lesbian Youth. We immediately seized upon the opponent’s calling card-safety-and explained how homophobia represents a threat to students’ safety by creating a climate where violence, name-calling, health problems, and suicide are common. Titling our report ‘Making Schools Safe for Gay and Lesbian Youth,’ we automatically threw our opponents onto the defensive and stole their best line of attack. This framing short-circuited their arguments and left them back-pedaling from day one.” (Kevin Jennings, “Winning the Culture War,”The Massachusetts News, “Governor’s Commission for Gay Youth Retreats to ‘Safety’ and ‘Suicide,’ December 2000)

Golly!  That sounds an awful lot like what the OP's article was trying to do.

Here's more information.

When all is said and done, it seems like we're left with increased rates of suicide and suicide attempts among homosexual youth.  The blame game being bandied about is essentially to place the blame for these increased rates (and, I suspect, for other problems such as increased levels of substance abuse, mental health problems, etc.) on social opprobrium and mistreatment.  To be sure, this is a factor, even an important one.  But the parts of the discussion I find problematic are A) the particular blaming of the LDS Church and its doctrines and its leaders and its members for teen suicides in circumstances where the welfare of the children seems to be a pretext for attacking the Church; B) the nigh-unto-complete absence of any serious discussion of the contributory effects of the "gay lifestyle" and/or "homosexual behavior" itself (this is one of the reasons I have found the Netherlands study to be so interesting), and C) the overall lack of decorum and civility demonstrated by hysterical, mean-spirited, and agenda-driven rhetoric deployed against good and decent people, which rhetoric appears to be deployed not as a means of persuasion, but rather to bully, to coerce, and to defame.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited January 28, 2016 by smac97

[Danzo]

20 minutes ago, smac97 said:

 As someone previously said, even one is too many.

-Smac

One is always too many, but if you are going to identify a problem (LDS Religion is causing suicide), you need to have data to show it, otherwise "one too many" becomes useless.

just saying "change, something" or "Stop it!" without knowing what to change or what to stop can easily change "even one is too many" into "many is too many"

The cure needs to be better than the sickness.

[Mystery Meat]

4 minutes ago, Daniel2 said:

Hallelujah!!!!!

I am so so so glad to see this report coming from the Deseret News.

I am grateful that, unlike many other reaponses we'be seen church leadership thoughyfully recognized the need to respond to how to help teenagers struggling with suicide instead of presuming that these mothers' pain, anguish, and call to action should only be summarily dismissed as merely an attack on the church.

Kudos for those responsible for the article for taking time encourage how to be supportive and thoughtful and helpful in such situations. My hope is that not only will this type of response trickle down into church membership, but that church leadership will themselves directly address it further in future talks, firesides, conferences, etc.

THESE are the types of responses that prove my earlier comment wrong, Smac.

Your earlier comments did not need anything further to prove they were wrong; they were wrong on their face regardless.

The reactions in this thread were to the underlying and deceptive motives of the author of the article. It is clear that she was trying to say we (ie, those who are faithful LDS) need to cast aside our beliefs and faith in order to save lives and if we don't it is our fault. It is a statement that many of us adamantly disagree with. But if the OP would have shown a true lack of bias and said, "Regardless of our own positions on homosexuality or what we might think are the causes of teen LGBT suicides, what can each of us do to help reduce, or better still, eliminate teen LGBT suicides?" this thread would have looked very, very different. Instead, we were linked to an article that did nothing of the sort (however, it did pretend to) and then had the scriptures manipulated to support it.

Big difference.

[readstoomuch]

Suicide among youth 15-30 is way too common in the United States, whatever belief or non-belief they have.  There is an epidemic of suicide in this age group that doesn`t get talked about enough.  I don`t think you are going to do anything about the Mormon or Utah problem until the national problem is recognized and addressed more head on.  

As far as LDS LGBT youth, we should as a people, do all we can to keep them from being kicked out of their homes or committing suicide.  I think many of the suicides start when they are rejected from their homes.  

[Danzo]

3 minutes ago, smac97 said:

And here's another:

And another:

And then there's this keeper:

Golly!  That sounds an awful lot like what the OP's article was trying to do.

Here's more information.

When all is said and done, it seems like we're left with increased rates of suicide and suicide attempts among homosexual youth.  The blame game being bandied about is essentially to place the blame for these increased rates (and, I suspect, for other problems such as increased levels of substance abuse, mental health problems, etc.) on social opprobrium and mistreatment.  To be sure, this is a factor, even an important one.  But the parts of the discussion I find problematic are A) the particular blaming of the LDS Church and its doctrines and its leaders and its members for teen suicides in circumstances where the welfare of the children seems to be a pretext for attacking the Church; and B) the nigh-unto-complete absence of any serious discussion of the contributory effects of the "gay lifestyle" and/or "homosexual behavior" itself (this is one of the reasons I have found the Netherlands study to be so interesting).

Thanks,

-Smac

Since the legalization and generally greater acceptance of Homosexual behavior, we should now be seeing studies showing suicide rates dropping.

I anxiously await studies showing the good news!

[smac97]

3 minutes ago, Danzo said:

One is always too many, but if you are going to identify a problem (LDS Religion is causing suicide), you need to have data to show it, otherwise "one too many" becomes useless.

just saying "change, something" or "Stop it!" without knowing what to change or what to stop can easily change "even one is too many" into "many is too many"

The cure needs to be better than the sickness.

I quite agree.  That's why I made my comments in the context of the Deseret News article, which includes some useful guidance on this subject.  I'm quite willing to listen to that (far more so than, say, listening to some anonymous person publicly accusing me and my fellow church members of not caring about teen suicides).

[Mystery Meat]

38 minutes ago, Daniel2 said:

Smac,

I'd be more than happy to change my opinion if there  is more discussion and brainstorming ideas of how we could potentially stop these kids from killing themselves.

As it stands, I have seen very few comments that would lead me to believe that anyone is doing anything other than offering lip service about being concerned about it.

Would you like to prove me wrong? Please, go right ahead... That is exactly the kind of discussion and compassionate call to action that this article seems to be calling for.

D

Daniel,

I have posted one way I think certain members of the Church could do better. I would like to know one way you think the LGBT community could do better.

[Teancum]

5 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

Here is what I reject - the use of a child's death to further a political agenda; the use of a child's suicide to make accusations.  For those that have the gall to point a finger of accusation over the grave of any suicide is offensive.  I detest this type of action and I reject it completely.

You, as in the context of all people, don't have a clue of the full range of emotions that are involved in the choice of someone who commits suicide.  Attempting to place blame at the feet of the Church or its leaders is monstrous.  

When did LDS as a group not love their children or preach that we should stop loving children regardless of their choices?  This is a new low and it demonstrates the depths some will go to push an agenda of hate, death, and division.  

Despicable. 

I had a family in my ward kick their gay son out the door and they were not called on the carpet for so doing. That is not love.

The Church policy makes it even more difficult for developing teens that recognize they are gay and thus flawed and automatically an apostate if they act on their sexuality.  That is not love either.

[CV75]

33 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Looks like this blog post caught the Church's attention.  They've made a statement:

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865646414/LDS-Church-leaders-mourn-reported-deaths-in-Mormon-LGBT-community.html?pg=all

This is far more constructive than the guilt-mongering and accusation we’ve seen in this thread!

Are we now going to focus on crediting the blog post for scooping this news, and on the culpability of any person or organization that didn’t blog about it first?

Or are we going to continue supporting the ongoing efforts and principles advocated by the Church and her members who are successful in dealing with this issue both personally and in their ministry,and  which are summarized in the Deseret News article?