Would you want to know if your church is false?

[Tacenda]

Does it have to be black and white, true or not true.  This is the crux.  This is why some members cannot be neutral or middle wayers.  Should the leaders come up with a way the member can look at it from a middle way lens?

“If we have the truth, it cannot be harmed by investigation. If we have not the truth, it ought to be harmed.”
—President J. Reuben Clark

“He was either a prophet of God, divinely called, properly appointed and commissioned, or he was one of the biggest frauds this world has ever seen. There is no middle ground.”
—Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, Pages 188-189

“Our whole strength rests on the validity of that [first] vision. It either occurred or it did not occur. If it did not, then this work is a fraud. If it did, then it is the most important and wonderful work under the heavens.”
—President Gordon B. Hinckley

“Each of us has to face the matter — either the Church is true, or it is a fraud. There is no middle ground. It is the church and kingdom of God, or it is nothing.”
—President Gordon B. Hinckley

“Well, it’s either true or false. If it’s false, we’re engaged in a great fraud. If it’s true, it’s the most important thing in the world. Now, that’s the whole picture. It is either right or wrong, true or false, fraudulent or true. And that’s exactly where we stand, with a conviction in our hearts that it is true: that Joseph went into the [Sacred] Grove; that he saw the Father and the Son; that he talked with them; that Moroni came; that the Book of Mormon was translated from the plates; that the priesthood was restored by those who held it anciently. That’s our claim. That’s where we stand, and that’s where we fall, if we fall. But we don’t. We just stand secure in that faith.”
—President Gordon B. Hinckley

“Let me quote a very powerful comment from President Ezra Taft Benson, who said, “The Book of Mormon is the keystone of [our] testimony. Just as the arch crumbles if the keystone is removed, so does all the Church stand or fall with the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. The enemies of the Church understand this clearly. This is why they go to such great lengths to try to disprove the Book of Mormon, for if it can be discredited, the Prophet Joseph Smith goes with it. So does our claim to priesthood keys, and revelation, and the restored Church…”

“…It sounds like a “sudden death” proposition to me. Either the Book of Mormon is what the Prophet Joseph said it is or this Church and its founder are false, fraudulent, a deception from the first instance onward.

“Either Joseph Smith was the prophet he said he was, who, after seeing the Father and the Son, later beheld the angel Moroni, repeatedly heard counsel from his lips, eventually receiving at his hands a set of ancient gold plates which he then translated according to the gift and power of God—or else he did not. And if he did not, in the spirit of President Benson’s comment, he is not entitled to retain even the reputation of New England folk hero or well-meaning young man or writer of remarkable fiction. No, and he is not entitled to be considered a great teacher or a quintessential American prophet or the creator of great wisdom literature. If he lied about the coming forth of the Book of Mormon, he is certainly none of those.

“I am suggesting that we make exactly that same kind of do-or-die, bold assertion about the restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ and the divine origins of the Book of Mormon. We have to. Reason and rightness require it. Accept Joseph Smith as a prophet and the book as the miraculously revealed and revered word of the Lord it is or else consign both man and book to Hades for the devastating deception of it all, but let’s not have any bizarre middle ground about the wonderful contours of a young boy’s imagination or his remarkable facility for turning a literary phrase. That is an unacceptable position to take—morally, literarily, historically, or theologically.”
—Jeffrey R. Holland, “True or False,” Liahona, June 1996

http://www.sltrib.com/news/3446377-155/kirby-could-you-handle-the-truth

If the church was false were you want to know?  

Edited January 25, 2016 by Tacenda

[3DOP]

I don't know. Am I replacing it with something or nothing? I still don't know. So in general I can say I would want to know, but it is hard to think about. It would be so devastating. Yeah fine, tell me so I can go crawl into a bottle for my last twenty years. The thing is, when you have lived thinking about eternity, it seems hard to get very excited about a mere lifetime.

[smac97]

43 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

If the church was false would you want to know?  

Certainly.  (By "false" I assume you mean something like "The foundational truth claims of the LDS Church, including the existence of God, the divine role of Jesus Christ as Savior and Redeemer, the truthfulness of The Book of Mormon in terms of origins and content, the restoration of the priesthood and the organization of the Church through Joseph Smith, etc. are not true/valid/correct.").

I do not believe it is "false.".  I also do not believe such a thing can be empirically quantified or demonstrated.  The truth claims of the LDS Church are a matter of faith.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited January 25, 2016 by smac97

[The Nehor]

Didn't we just do this thread?

[Gray]

Churches can neither be true nor false, for the same reason that sentences can't be yellow. 

[Calm]

8 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Didn't we just do this thread?

Deja vu all over again:

 

 

 

 

Edited January 25, 2016 by Calm

[3DOP]

The title of this one referred to "your Church", which gave me an opening to reply, as opposed to VJG's "the church" (obviously LDS in context), which did not. Not much difference to you guys. Big difference to me.

[halconero]

21 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Didn't we just do this thread?

Threads.

Fixed that for you.

[CV75]

58 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Does it have to be black and white, true or not true.  This is the crux.  This is why some members cannot be neutral or middle wayers.

***

If the church was false would you want to know?  

I think it would be good to discuss the difference between three orientations your question represents: one of wanting to know if it is false; one of wanting to know if it is true; and one of wanting to know if it is a little of both. What do you think the differences are? Also, what are the ramifications of any one orientation being a greater motivator than the other two, and why does it take precedence over the other two?

[halconero]

Thanks 3DOP, you make a good point.

Yes, I would want to know. I've gone from an absolute solid testimony, to having a faithfully ambiguous testimony, and now back to solid but in a different manner than before and with different perspectives.

Admitantly it would be difficult to find out they weren't true. It would probably render my soul.

Here's the crux though...I've come to understand myself as much of a Functional Mormon as I am a Substantive Mormon. This follows two of the most popular definitions of religion, with functionalism defining religion as something you do, including the ceremonies, associations, the creation and maintenance of values systems, etc. Substantive religion relies more on what you believe, or what we more typically call religion.

Functionally I find tremendous value and meaning in what I do as a Mormon. This includes the temple and non-temple ceremonies, family history, dietary ethics, service projects, and the study of scripture (were I agnostic, as I was close to being at one point, I would find value in the study of scripture). I find value in the community and the associations I find there. Some might call that a fake religiosity, but I've always been the actions speak louder than words type, so it rings true to me.

Until I could find something which substantively felt right to me and could be fear the fruits of substantive "rightness" and "truth," I would continue as a Functional Mormon and find tremendous joy in doing so.

[JAHS]

35 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Didn't we just do this thread?

I was thinking the same thing.

 

[The Nehor]

33 minutes ago, Gray said:

Churches can neither be true nor false, for the same reason that sentences can't be yellow. 

Are you sure about that?

[JLHPROF]

Assuming that by "true" you mean belonging to God and teaching his gospel, my answer would depend on my reason for being a member.

If I was a member for social reasons, because I valued the teachings and benefits to my life, or liked the focus on family, or some similar reason, then I'd probably rather not know.
If I was a member for the primary reason of following God's plan, path, and instruction to return to him, then I would definitely want to know because following God would be all that mattered.

[CV75]

34 minutes ago, Gray said:

Churches can neither be true nor false, for the same reason that sentences can't be yellow. 

CFR that sentences can’t be yellow.

[Calm]

Nehor beat you by a minute, CV.  Isn't that so annoying.

[JAHS]

6 minutes ago, JAHS said:

I was thinking the same thing.

 

Here's what I said then:
"For an active latter-day saint there is no yes or no answer to this question because it is a loaded question. It assumes that one believes that it might be possible that it is not true. I assume that it is true, backed up by my experiences living the gospel and by confirmation from the Holy Ghost. If there is a God that wants us to live by certain precepts in order to return to Him, in my opinion, there is no other religion that better conforms to what is found in the scriptures or that could be better for making my life happy and purposeful."

And

This question reminds me of the one where you are asked, "Have you stopped beating your wife? 
You can't respond Yes or No to it. When it comes to religion it' all a matter of faith anyway.
The only way we could know for sure it wasn't true is if Joseph Smith came back and confessed he made it all up;
which is never going to happen, so I am going to stick with it.

 

[Gray]

17 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Are you sure about that?

 

CFR that sentences can’t be yellow.

 

I'd like to move the goalposts to spoken sentences, please and thank you. 

Edited January 25, 2016 by Gray

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, 3DOP said:

I don't know. Am I replacing it with something or nothing? I still don't know. So in general I can say I would want to know, but it is hard to think about. It would be so devastating. Yeah fine, tell me so I can go crawl into a bottle for my last twenty years. The thing is, when you have lived thinking about eternity, it seems hard to get very excited about a mere lifetime.

I agree.  So many would rather not know, for fear of the nothing...

Thanks for chiming in!  :-)

[The Nehor]

2 minutes ago, Gray said:

I'd like to move the goalposts to spoken sentences, please and thank you. 

What if you exhale fluorine gas when you speak and are like Gandalf and can blow it to make words in the yellow gas?

[Calm]

2 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I agree.  So many would rather not know, for fear of the nothing...

Or perhaps it isn't fear, but just an acceptance that full is better than empty.

[Jeanne]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Does it have to be black and white, true or not true.  This is the crux.  This is why some members cannot be neutral or middle wayers.  Should the leaders come up with a way the member can look at it from a middle way lens?

“If we have the truth, it cannot be harmed by investigation. If we have not the truth, it ought to be harmed.”
—President J. Reuben Clark

“He was either a prophet of God, divinely called, properly appointed and commissioned, or he was one of the biggest frauds this world has ever seen. There is no middle ground.”
—Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, Pages 188-189

“Our whole strength rests on the validity of that [first] vision. It either occurred or it did not occur. If it did not, then this work is a fraud. If it did, then it is the most important and wonderful work under the heavens.”
—President Gordon B. Hinckley

“Each of us has to face the matter — either the Church is true, or it is a fraud. There is no middle ground. It is the church and kingdom of God, or it is nothing.”
—President Gordon B. Hinckley

“Well, it’s either true or false. If it’s false, we’re engaged in a great fraud. If it’s true, it’s the most important thing in the world. Now, that’s the whole picture. It is either right or wrong, true or false, fraudulent or true. And that’s exactly where we stand, with a conviction in our hearts that it is true: that Joseph went into the [Sacred] Grove; that he saw the Father and the Son; that he talked with them; that Moroni came; that the Book of Mormon was translated from the plates; that the priesthood was restored by those who held it anciently. That’s our claim. That’s where we stand, and that’s where we fall, if we fall. But we don’t. We just stand secure in that faith.”
—President Gordon B. Hinckley

“Let me quote a very powerful comment from President Ezra Taft Benson, who said, “The Book of Mormon is the keystone of [our] testimony. Just as the arch crumbles if the keystone is removed, so does all the Church stand or fall with the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. The enemies of the Church understand this clearly. This is why they go to such great lengths to try to disprove the Book of Mormon, for if it can be discredited, the Prophet Joseph Smith goes with it. So does our claim to priesthood keys, and revelation, and the restored Church…”

“…It sounds like a “sudden death” proposition to me. Either the Book of Mormon is what the Prophet Joseph said it is or this Church and its founder are false, fraudulent, a deception from the first instance onward.

“Either Joseph Smith was the prophet he said he was, who, after seeing the Father and the Son, later beheld the angel Moroni, repeatedly heard counsel from his lips, eventually receiving at his hands a set of ancient gold plates which he then translated according to the gift and power of God—or else he did not. And if he did not, in the spirit of President Benson’s comment, he is not entitled to retain even the reputation of New England folk hero or well-meaning young man or writer of remarkable fiction. No, and he is not entitled to be considered a great teacher or a quintessential American prophet or the creator of great wisdom literature. If he lied about the coming forth of the Book of Mormon, he is certainly none of those.

“I am suggesting that we make exactly that same kind of do-or-die, bold assertion about the restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ and the divine origins of the Book of Mormon. We have to. Reason and rightness require it. Accept Joseph Smith as a prophet and the book as the miraculously revealed and revered word of the Lord it is or else consign both man and book to Hades for the devastating deception of it all, but let’s not have any bizarre middle ground about the wonderful contours of a young boy’s imagination or his remarkable facility for turning a literary phrase. That is an unacceptable position to take—morally, literarily, historically, or theologically.”
—Jeffrey R. Holland, “True or False,” Liahona, June 1996

http://www.sltrib.com/news/3446377-155/kirby-could-you-handle-the-truth

If the church was false would you want to know?  

Loved the article.  I enjoy Kirby.  As for your question...in my opinion it depends on the level of trust you had with the church and its leaders...your life circumstances..and what sense of betrayal it all adds up to one personally.  Note..this has nothing to do with belief in God.  But time, money, talents and trust and service and......and.. does not mix with lies.

[CV75]

34 minutes ago, Calm said:

Nehor beat you by a minute, CV.  Isn't that so annoying.

LOL great minds

26 minutes ago, Gray said:

I'd like to move the goalposts to spoken sentences, please and thank you. 

Well, that's a jaundiced view! But here you go, an example of a yellow spoken sentence: "I don't like it here, I don't like it here at all!"

Edited January 25, 2016 by CV75

[CV75]

30 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

What if you exhale fluorine gas when you speak and are like Gandalf and can blow it to make words in the yellow gas?

I's say that counts!

[Ahab]

I don't really care to know about anything that is false. Whatever is false is not what I'm after. Just show me the truth, or do your best to describe it or define it for me. Not what is false but what is true. And then I will see for myself. Some way. Somehow.

Just don't waste my time trying to tell me about what is false because that will be self evident when I know or find out what the truth is. 

[Gray]

41 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

What if you exhale fluorine gas when you speak and are like Gandalf and can blow it to make words in the yellow gas?