Zakuska Posted January 25, 2016 Posted January 25, 2016 (edited) So our new friend Savedwheat has brought up a verse that he interprets to mean that once you are saved you are eternaly saved and can never lose your salvation. The verse in question is John 10:28-29. John 1028 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I say Savedwheat's scriptural exegesis on the verse leaves much to be explained. Savedwheat seems to erroniously equate "perish" to be the antithesis of "salvation". 'Never Perish' from what? It can't mean physical death because even Peter and Paul are still in the grave. There is nothing in the verse that even talks about salvation. The verses talk about the inability of 'other men' taking them from God... but says nothing about the ability of they themselves disqualifying themselves and falling from salvation through sin, slothfulness, not producing good fruit for the Lord. Its very simple for a "saved" person, to prevent the Lord from saving them in the end. And don't give me this garbage that if "I did, that I never really was saved to begin with" because every indicator says otherwise. If we are to believe Savedwheat's interpretation of John 10:28-29 then the Apostles who walked and talked and ate honeycomb and fish with the Savior of the World sure missed the boat because if they felt believers were "eternally saved" or "eternally secure", then there would be no reason for them to issue warnings to the believers to guard against "falling away" or "falling into temptation". No need to exhort them to good works. All of Pauls letters calling this church our that church to repentance for doing this or that thing would be completely unnecessary. The letter to the Galatians telling them they had "left their first love" and "fallen from Gods grace" back to a works based system would be rendered superfluous and foolish. Totally unnecessary. Savedwheat's interpretation asks the wrong question to begin with. No one questions God's "ability" to save. That's a given. So there must be some other reason why some are saved and some are not and that's the ability for the "saved" to chose their own destiny. Here is a non-exhaustive list of the verses that the doctrine of "once saved always saved" violates and renders contradictory. Hebrews 6:6 "If they fall away"... no need for the author to even pose the question if the author believed the people who he was talking to were eternally saved. OSAS precludes the question from even being asked. Parable of the Sower "Once saved always saved" would make it impossible for the seed to be "choked out" by briers. Nor could the seed be "snatched away" by the Birds. Once the seed was sown it couldn't be stopped. Every seed regardless of what type of soil it fell in (or no soil at all) would spontaneously grow and flourish forever unrestrained or unstoppable. Paul's Parable of the Olive Tree "Once saved always saved" would dictate that God could never "break any branches off"... nor could he "graft the natural branches back in again" because after all the natural branches were already saved, the wild branches once grafted could never be removed, and the natural branches removed would immediately be burned so no "grafting them back in" and Paul's whole warning is rendered moot.(at least according to OSAS) God would be continually grafting and prevented from ever pruning. Parable of the 99 and 1 sheeps OSAS dictates that the one sheep could never get lost to begin with. Once the sheep entered the fold of the Lord he's set for life and all eternity according to it. Romans Israel could have never "fallen" so salvation could come to the Gentiles to begin with. There are many more verses that OSAS causes issues with. Would anyone care to share any they know? Edited January 25, 2016 by Zakuska 2
JLHPROF Posted January 25, 2016 Posted January 25, 2016 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Zakuska said: I say Savedwheat's scriptural exegesis on the verse leaves much to be explained. Savedwheat seems to erroniously equate "perish" to be the antithesis of "salvation". 'Never Perish' from what? It can't mean physical death because even Peter and Paul are still in the grave. There is nothing in the verse that even talks about salvation. That's hardly the only thing he's confused about and hardly the only scripture he is misinterpreting. Never seen so much wresting of scripture to make something even vaguely possible. But everyone is entitled to their own beliefs, even Savedwheat. Even if they aren't scriptural. OSAS is a false doctrine as anyone who can read a Bible can see. Edited January 25, 2016 by JLHPROF
Anakin7 Posted January 26, 2016 Posted January 26, 2016 zakuska I thought I shared this with savedwheat concerning John 10:28 - http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/john1028.htm but here it is for you and anyone else that is interested. May True Grace be with you and those you love. In His Eternal Debt Grace Anakin7
JAHS Posted January 26, 2016 Posted January 26, 2016 19 minutes ago, Anakin7 said: zakuska I thought I shared this with savedwheat concerning John 10:28 - http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/john1028.htm but here it is for you and anyone else that is interested. May True Grace be with you and those you love. In His Eternal Debt Grace Anakin7 Yes. If you include verse 27 into the equation it adds more to the meaning: "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:" There does appear to be the requirement that they hear his voice and follow Him, in order to not perish and to gain eternal life.
Anakin7 Posted January 26, 2016 Posted January 26, 2016 More for our OSAS critic savedwheat from one evangelical perspective - http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/destiny.htm In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7
RevTestament Posted January 26, 2016 Posted January 26, 2016 19 hours ago, Zakuska said: So our new friend Savedwheat has brought up a verse that he interprets to mean that once you are saved you are eternaly saved and can never lose your salvation. The verse in question is John 10:28-29. John 1028 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I say Savedwheat's scriptural exegesis on the verse leaves much to be explained. Savedwheat seems to erroniously equate "perish" to be the antithesis of "salvation". 'Never Perish' from what? It can't mean physical death because even Peter and Paul are still in the grave. There is nothing in the verse that even talks about salvation. The verses talk about the inability of 'other men' taking them from God... but says nothing about the ability of they themselves disqualifying themselves and falling from salvation through sin, slothfulness, not producing good fruit for the Lord. Its very simple for a "saved" person, to prevent the Lord from saving them in the end. And don't give me this garbage that if "I did, that I never really was saved to begin with" because every indicator says otherwise. If we are to believe Savedwheat's interpretation of John 10:28-29 then the Apostles who walked and talked and ate honeycomb and fish with the Savior of the World sure missed the boat because if they felt believers were "eternally saved" or "eternally secure", then there would be no reason for them to issue warnings to the believers to guard against "falling away" or "falling into temptation". No need to exhort them to good works. All of Pauls letters calling this church our that church to repentance for doing this or that thing would be completely unnecessary. The letter to the Galatians telling them they had "left their first love" and "fallen from Gods grace" back to a works based system would be rendered superfluous and foolish. Totally unnecessary. Savedwheat's interpretation asks the wrong question to begin with. No one questions God's "ability" to save. That's a given. So there must be some other reason why some are saved and some are not and that's the ability for the "saved" to chose their own destiny. Here is a non-exhaustive list of the verses that the doctrine of "once saved always saved" violates and renders contradictory. Hebrews 6:6 "If they fall away"... no need for the author to even pose the question if the author believed the people who he was talking to were eternally saved. OSAS precludes the question from even being asked. Parable of the Sower "Once saved always saved" would make it impossible for the seed to be "choked out" by briers. Nor could the seed be "snatched away" by the Birds. Once the seed was sown it couldn't be stopped. Every seed regardless of what type of soil it fell in (or no soil at all) would spontaneously grow and flourish forever unrestrained or unstoppable. Paul's Parable of the Olive Tree "Once saved always saved" would dictate that God could never "break any branches off"... nor could he "graft the natural branches back in again" because after all the natural branches were already saved, the wild branches once grafted could never be removed, and the natural branches removed would immediately be burned so no "grafting them back in" and Paul's whole warning is rendered moot.(at least according to OSAS) God would be continually grafting and prevented from ever pruning. Parable of the 99 and 1 sheeps OSAS dictates that the one sheep could never get lost to begin with. Once the sheep entered the fold of the Lord he's set for life and all eternity according to it. Romans Israel could have never "fallen" so salvation could come to the Gentiles to begin with. There are many more verses that OSAS causes issues with. Would anyone care to share any they know? While I use many of these same scriptures to try to disabuse people of the notions of OSAS, I would point out that in the parable of the sower the seed/word has to be received before people can be saved. So your analysis begins apply with the seed that is choked out by the world - this seed falls away, and is in danger of dying unrepentant. And yes there are more verses from Paul himself that the OSAS preachers fail to point out as they want everyone to believe the literal translation of one verse to the exclusion of all others, which we all know means they are reading it out of context. To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life (Rom. 2:7). The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers (Gal. 6:8-10). For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end (Heb. 3:14). And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him (Heb. 5:9). The preachers use a literal or "Greek linear" style of interpretation, which is quite different from the Hebrew thought or interpretation. For instance when Jesus says all "Who believe on me shall not perish but receive eternal life" He is not saying all you must do is say "Jesus I believe in you" and go your way. He is saying you must believe in Him and everything He says and teaches - the Hebrew belief is action oriented and calls one to act on their beliefs. It is not just mental acceptance. The preachers who teach the verbal acceptance stuff are leading their flocks to hell. This is why Jesus said: 21 ¶Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you:depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24 ¶Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: The sad fact is those who believe OSAS are building their house upon the sand, and have no foundation on our Lord and Savior. Those who truly accept Jesus must turn from sin and be viligantly repentant.
FormerLDS Posted January 27, 2016 Posted January 27, 2016 On 1/25/2016 at 2:36 PM, Zakuska said: So our new friend Savedwheat has brought up a verse that he interprets to mean that once you are saved you are eternaly saved and can never lose your salvation. The verse in question is John 10:28-29. John 1028 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I say Savedwheat's scriptural exegesis on the verse leaves much to be explained. Savedwheat seems to erroniously equate "perish" to be the antithesis of "salvation". 'Never Perish' from what? It can't mean physical death because even Peter and Paul are still in the grave. There is nothing in the verse that even talks about salvation. The verses talk about the inability of 'other men' taking them from God... but says nothing about the ability of they themselves disqualifying themselves and falling from salvation through sin, slothfulness, not producing good fruit for the Lord. Its very simple for a "saved" person, to prevent the Lord from saving them in the end. And don't give me this garbage that if "I did, that I never really was saved to begin with" because every indicator says otherwise. If we are to believe Savedwheat's interpretation of John 10:28-29 then the Apostles who walked and talked and ate honeycomb and fish with the Savior of the World sure missed the boat because if they felt believers were "eternally saved" or "eternally secure", then there would be no reason for them to issue warnings to the believers to guard against "falling away" or "falling into temptation". No need to exhort them to good works. All of Pauls letters calling this church our that church to repentance for doing this or that thing would be completely unnecessary. The letter to the Galatians telling them they had "left their first love" and "fallen from Gods grace" back to a works based system would be rendered superfluous and foolish. Totally unnecessary. Savedwheat's interpretation asks the wrong question to begin with. No one questions God's "ability" to save. That's a given. So there must be some other reason why some are saved and some are not and that's the ability for the "saved" to chose their own destiny. Here is a non-exhaustive list of the verses that the doctrine of "once saved always saved" violates and renders contradictory. Hebrews 6:6 "If they fall away"... no need for the author to even pose the question if the author believed the people who he was talking to were eternally saved. OSAS precludes the question from even being asked. Parable of the Sower "Once saved always saved" would make it impossible for the seed to be "choked out" by briers. Nor could the seed be "snatched away" by the Birds. Once the seed was sown it couldn't be stopped. Every seed regardless of what type of soil it fell in (or no soil at all) would spontaneously grow and flourish forever unrestrained or unstoppable. Paul's Parable of the Olive Tree "Once saved always saved" would dictate that God could never "break any branches off"... nor could he "graft the natural branches back in again" because after all the natural branches were already saved, the wild branches once grafted could never be removed, and the natural branches removed would immediately be burned so no "grafting them back in" and Paul's whole warning is rendered moot.(at least according to OSAS) God would be continually grafting and prevented from ever pruning. Parable of the 99 and 1 sheeps OSAS dictates that the one sheep could never get lost to begin with. Once the sheep entered the fold of the Lord he's set for life and all eternity according to it. Romans Israel could have never "fallen" so salvation could come to the Gentiles to begin with. There are many more verses that OSAS causes issues with. Would anyone care to share any they know? Hello Friends, I trust you are well. Is it really so impossible to equate "perish" with "antithesis of salvation" (outer darkness, hell, death, etc)? Jesus Christ said “whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” (John 3:16) Seems to me those who “perish” are those who do not have eternal life. Without digging in too deep, numerous other scriptures clearly contract those who “perish” with those who are unsaved for anyone willing to see the obvious. “For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish” 2 Corinthians 2:15 “And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.” 2 Thessalonians 2:10 As always, each of the other scriptures mentioned has a very logical, simple explanation, but (again, as always) when you approach the discussion with such preconceived conclusion, how can you see that which is obvious? Of all the LDS Christian friends and family members I've reached through the years, the single common denominator for seeing the truth - what Jesus Christ is trying to say to you - comes only after one becomes as a child and reads His words for the first time.
Anakin7 Posted January 27, 2016 Posted January 27, 2016 (edited) FormerLDS welcome back, Anakin7 here [Former Methodist/Fundamentalist Independant Baptist] thank you for you thoughts. In the Early Christian Church in the N.T time period along with the Apostolic Fathers there was no True Doctrine of Once saved always saved for those who had accepted Christ but later fell away. History has shown this to be True. You may wish to accept that or not in regards to what you are reading in Holy Writ however that is how it was/is concerning the conditions of True Salvation soteriology. Thank you for comming by to share. May True Grace be with you and those you love. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited January 27, 2016 by Anakin7
Anakin7 Posted January 27, 2016 Posted January 27, 2016 Another share for FormerLDS [And any others concerning OSAS] - http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/tragedies.htm In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7
Anakin7 Posted January 27, 2016 Posted January 27, 2016 Thank you Zakuska, May The True Grace be with you as well. The Atonement, It Is The Central Doctrine Counting The Cost To Follow Him In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7
FormerLDS Posted January 27, 2016 Posted January 27, 2016 2 hours ago, Anakin7 said: FormerLDS welcome back, Anakin7 here [Former Methodist/Fundamentalist Independant Baptist] thank you for you thoughts. In the Early Christian Church in the N.T time period along with the Apostolic Fathers there was no True Doctrine of Once saved always saved for those who had accepted Christ but later fell away. History has shown this to be True. You may wish to accept that or not in regards to what you are reading in Holy Writ however that is how it was/is concerning the conditions of True Salvation soteriology. Thank you for comming by to share. May True Grace be with you and those you love. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Assuming none of us here were actually there to witness what the "Early Christian Church", "Apostolic Fathers" and history proclaimed to be "true", could we not just simply rely upon what Jesus Christ said? I mean, they may have believed the earth was flat for all we know. If the Saviour Himself said "no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand", then who are we to think otherwise? Salvation is equated with being "born again" (John 3, 1 Peter 1:23). There is nothing you or anyone else can do to un-do your being physically born. Why would the spiritual birth be any different? Just as above, no man is able to do that. Unless of course Christ meant "ye must be born again...and again...and again..." which seems to fit the "True Salvation soteriology" you speak of... In my mind (and from personal experience), those who reject OSAS have never really understood what being "saved" means in the first place.
JLHPROF Posted January 27, 2016 Posted January 27, 2016 16 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: If the Saviour Himself said "no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand", then who are we to think otherwise? Of course that's right. Salvation is between the individual and God. No man can separate it. But we certainly have the agency to separate ourselves. Once Saved Always Saved takes away our ability to choose. And that's not scriptural. If Judas had stayed an Apostle and never betrayed Christ he would have been assured of his salvation. But he chose to reject it. If David hadn't had Uriah killed he would have stayed saved. As it was he had to spend most of the rest of his life pleading with the Lord to regain his salvation. OSAS is a nice idea, but not scripturally sound.
FormerLDS Posted January 27, 2016 Posted January 27, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, JLHPROF said: Of course that's right. Salvation is between the individual and God. No man can separate it. But we certainly have the agency to separate ourselves. Once Saved Always Saved takes away our ability to choose. And that's not scriptural. If Judas had stayed an Apostle and never betrayed Christ he would have been assured of his salvation. But he chose to reject it. If David hadn't had Uriah killed he would have stayed saved. As it was he had to spend most of the rest of his life pleading with the Lord to regain his salvation. OSAS is a nice idea, but not scripturally sound. You have an excellent observation; OSAS simply does not "fit" into LDS theology. Again, the issue here really isn't OSAS. It's "saved". If you don't have the correct doctrine about being "saved", then doctrines about the nature of salvation won't make sense. Those who have eternal life are "saved". Those who do not have eternal life are not "saved". Hope that at least helps you see the other POV. Edited January 27, 2016 by FormerLDS
Anakin7 Posted January 27, 2016 Posted January 27, 2016 (edited) Former in case you missed a previous post I gave in regards to OSAS not being a True Christian/Biblical Doctrine from our lights - http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/tragedies.htm http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/images/HellOSAS2.pdf In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited January 27, 2016 by Anakin7
Anakin7 Posted January 27, 2016 Posted January 27, 2016 Former the advesary would have one believe that salvation is easy and cannot be lost but scripture states otherwise in our view - http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/everyNTbook.htm . In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7
FormerLDS Posted January 27, 2016 Posted January 27, 2016 2 minutes ago, Anakin7 said: Former the advesary would have one believe that salvation is easy and cannot be lost but scripture states otherwise in our view - http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/everyNTbook.htm . In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 So let me see if get your position correct. If "salvation is easy and cannot be lost" then you feel that form of salvation is from the adversary? If that is correct, when the Saviour said in John 6:47 "He that believeth on me hath everlasting life." Would you say that is "easy" or not? Seems so easy to me that even a child could comprehend. Based upon what Jesus Christ says, I would say the adversary would have one believe that salvation isn't easy and can be lost.
Zakuska Posted January 27, 2016 Author Posted January 27, 2016 4 hours ago, FormerLDS said: Assuming none of us here were actually there to witness what the "Early Christian Church", "Apostolic Fathers" and history proclaimed to be "true", could we not just simply rely upon what Jesus Christ said? I mean, they may have believed the earth was flat for all we know. If the Saviour Himself said "no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand", then who are we to think otherwise? Salvation is equated with being "born again" (John 3, 1 Peter 1:23). There is nothing you or anyone else can do to un-do your being physically born. Why would the spiritual birth be any different? Just as above, no man is able to do that. Unless of course Christ meant "ye must be born again...and again...and again..." which seems to fit the "True Salvation soteriology" you speak of... In my mind (and from personal experience), those who reject OSAS have never really understood what being "saved" means in the first place. FormerLDS, If Paul were "saved" and had "eternal life"... why was he still "hoping for" something that was already secured? Titus 1 2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
Anakin7 Posted January 27, 2016 Posted January 27, 2016 (edited) Belief in Jesus is a continious state of Heart and mind it is not just a single moment in time but ongoing in time. You have not addressed that scriptural passages in the links I have provided you, here is another - http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/whichgospel.htm - Be sure to click Blue Highlighted links on pages.Please show where these scriptures are taken out of context or incorrect in response to OSAS. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited January 28, 2016 by Anakin7
Anakin7 Posted January 27, 2016 Posted January 27, 2016 (edited) Also Formerlds Believing [the True Believing in Anchient O.T/N.T Times] included Obedience to stay in True Grace http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/believing.htm Be sure to click Blue Highlited links on pages. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited January 28, 2016 by Anakin7
Zakuska Posted January 28, 2016 Author Posted January 28, 2016 (edited) 6 hours ago, FormerLDS said: So let me see if get your position correct. If "salvation is easy and cannot be lost" then you feel that form of salvation is from the adversary? If that is correct, when the Saviour said in John 6:47 "He that believeth on me hath everlasting life." Would you say that is "easy" or not? Seems so easy to me that even a child could comprehend. Based upon what Jesus Christ says, I would say the adversary would have one believe that salvation isn't easy and can be lost. So all that is required in your view, to have "everlasting life" that cannot be lost is to "believe in Christ"? If that is so then please explain how this person heard the word, "believed" the word, received the word unto salvation, and then still fell. Luke 8 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. According to OSAS this is impossible. Why didn't God give them root? Wasn't the Holy Ghost strong enough? Edited January 28, 2016 by Zakuska
FormerLDS Posted January 28, 2016 Posted January 28, 2016 16 hours ago, Zakuska said: FormerLDS, If Paul were "saved" and had "eternal life"... why was he still "hoping for" something that was already secured? Titus 1 2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; Like I said before, the most simple method for seeing the truth is through the words of Jesus Christ. Christ will show you the truth friends - not Former, not the Pope, not your best friend, not your parent - Christ himself if you will listen. Regardless, re-read the passage. Paul didn't say he "hoped for" eternal life (even though physically speaking we can say this). There is a hope that eternal life brings with it to those who have eternal life. Consider Romans 5:2 "By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God." Paul isn't hoping God will give him His glory. Rather, the Glory of God that we do not yet see is manifested in hope His glory brings.
FormerLDS Posted January 28, 2016 Posted January 28, 2016 16 hours ago, Anakin7 said: Belief in Jesus is a continious state of Heart and mind it is not just a single moment in time but ongoing in time. You have not addressed that scriptural passages in the links I have provided you, here is another - http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/whichgospel.htm - Be sure to click Blue Highlighted links on pages.Please show where these scriptures are taken out of context or incorrect in response to OSAS. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 In John 5:24, when Jesus Christ describes how one is "passed from death unto life": "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." How long would you say this process would take? Wouldn't this seem like a moment in time when one is "passed from death unto life"?
FormerLDS Posted January 28, 2016 Posted January 28, 2016 16 hours ago, Anakin7 said: Also Formerlds Believing [the True Believing in Anchient O.T/N.T Times] included Obedience to stay in True Grace http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/believing.htm Be sure to click Blue Highlited links on pages. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 If what you are saying really is true, why were the rejected of the saviour in Matthew 7 rejected? They believed in Jesus Christ and they performed miraculous works - more than you or anyone else we know, yet the saviour said unto them "depart from me ye workers of iniquity, I never knew you". If what you are saying is true, shouldn't they have been exalted, rewarded, given some sort of acknowledgement for their obedience?
St. Bookmark Posted January 28, 2016 Posted January 28, 2016 Savedwheat sounds like my baptist friends, with the o.s.a.s. false doctrine
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