savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 Isaiah 43:11 "I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour." Isaiah 44:6 "I am the first and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." Isaiah 44:8 "You are my witnesses. ; Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one" If there is no God beside God then there is nothing beside God: He is alone from everlasting. Link to comment
Russell C McGregor Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 You keep doing this. Please take this from me, and then you won't have to take it from the moderators. DO NOT START MULTIPLE THREADS ON THE SAME TOPIC. Important as you undoubtedly are, this forum was not created just to give you a pulpit from which to harangue us. 4 Link to comment
Zakuska Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 3 minutes ago, savedwheat said: Isaiah 43:11 "I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour." Isaiah 44:6 "I am the first and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." Isaiah 44:8 "You are my witnesses. ; Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one" If there is no God beside God then there is nothing beside God: He is alone from everlasting. If there is no God besides him then why did Jesus quote a scripture where God called other sentient beings Gods besides him self? John 10 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Link to comment
CA Steve Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 If this is what God has to listen to from His followers, it's no wonder He wants to be alone. Link to comment
Sevenbak Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 "Besides me there is no God".... Except for ol' Stephen. Poor martyr just gets no respect... Acts 7 55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. 2 Link to comment
Anakin7 Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 Some OCB is going on here with someone . In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Link to comment
Mhcapa1 Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 Despite God saying before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me, if I somehow find a way to fit the idea that God the Father was once a man on a different planet with a god above Him, and that that god above him was once a man on another planet with a god above him... And back and back and back to innumerable gods out there... And that humans here on this Earth can be exalted to being gods, and forward from there... If I somehow buy into that idea despite God saying "before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me"... Then it gets into how to be exalted to godhood - LDS would say in order to live with God a person has to get baptized - which requires keeping the word of wisdom right? I'm not saying the w o w is or isn't good advice... But necessary for baptism, which is necessary for salvation? I have to ask - what about Colossians 2:16, Matthew 15:11, Romans 14, etc? But let's say you get over that hurdle too ....then it gets into you have to be married to go to the highest heaven and become a god of your own planet so that you can have spirit children... Right? You'd need an eternal wife to have spirit children... I mean, that seems logical... But then I'd have to throw out more things Jesus said and Paul said... Like Jesus in Matthew 22:24-32 Those guys followed the law of God given through Moses in regards to God's commands on marriage, were married on Earth, and Jesus is saying that they will not be married in heaven but will be like the angels of God in heaven. And Jesus in Matthew 19:12 says some choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven (If you don't know what a eunuch is - go take a look at that) And Paul doesn't say you must be married either - Look at 1 Corinthians 7 He says it's fine either way, married or not married. He even says bc single people are not burdened with concerns that come with marriage they might focus more on serving God. So why would Jesus and Paul say this stuff and not a single mention of get married so you can live with God in the highest level of heaven and have spirit children etc if exaltation etc is the goal and it was required? I haven't found an lds person that has been able to give me a reasonable answer to these questions, they just tell me I need to have faith... But arent they are essentially asking me to place my faith in their teachings instead of placing my faith in things Jesus and Paul said and taught? Wouldnt I have to disregard some of the things Jesus and Paul taught in order to believe and follow the lds stuff? Link to comment
sunstoned Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 On 1/23/2016 at 6:03 PM, savedwheat said: Isaiah 43:11 "I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour." Isaiah 44:6 "I am the first and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." Isaiah 44:8 "You are my witnesses. ; Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one" If there is no God beside God then there is nothing beside God: He is alone from everlasting. Do you have a point to make here? Link to comment
JLHPROF Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 36 minutes ago, sunstoned said: Do you have a point to make here? Dead thread walking. This is from two years ago and the OP was banned a long time back. 2 Link to comment
JLHPROF Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 1 hour ago, Mhcapa1 said: Despite God saying before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me, if I somehow find a way to fit the idea that God the Father was once a man on a different planet with a god above Him, and that that god above him was once a man on another planet with a god above him... And back and back and back to innumerable gods out there... And that humans here on this Earth can be exalted to being gods, and forward from there... If I somehow buy into that idea despite God saying "before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me"... Then it gets into how to be exalted to godhood - LDS would say in order to live with God a person has to get baptized - which requires keeping the word of wisdom right? I'm not saying the w o w is or isn't good advice... But necessary for baptism, which is necessary for salvation? I have to ask - what about Colossians 2:16, Matthew 15:11, Romans 14, etc? But let's say you get over that hurdle too ....then it gets into you have to be married to go to the highest heaven and become a god of your own planet so that you can have spirit children... Right? You'd need an eternal wife to have spirit children... I mean, that seems logical... But then I'd have to throw out more things Jesus said and Paul said... Like Jesus in Matthew 22:24-32 Those guys followed the law of God given through Moses in regards to God's commands on marriage, were married on Earth, and Jesus is saying that they will not be married in heaven but will be like the angels of God in heaven. And Jesus in Matthew 19:12 says some choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven (If you don't know what a eunuch is - go take a look at that) And Paul doesn't say you must be married either - Look at 1 Corinthians 7 He says it's fine either way, married or not married. He even says bc single people are not burdened with concerns that come with marriage they might focus more on serving God. So why would Jesus and Paul say this stuff and not a single mention of get married so you can live with God in the highest level of heaven and have spirit children etc if exaltation etc is the goal and it was required? I haven't found an lds person that has been able to give me a reasonable answer to these questions, they just tell me I need to have faith... But arent they are essentially asking me to place my faith in their teachings instead of placing my faith in things Jesus and Paul said and taught? Wouldnt I have to disregard some of the things Jesus and Paul taught in order to believe and follow the lds stuff? Savedwheat is that you? And no, you don't have to disregard anything unless you belief in Biblical infallibility. 1 Link to comment
Anakin7 Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 From my understanding of the Hebrew/Israelite structure of the Isaiah passages it is not talking of a "absoluteness" but of position of authority, of which Savedwheat has no understanding of and a # of objective non LDS Professors/Scholars/Theologians know of this. This happens when you are immersed in a modern rightwing evangelical house/world. I have a # of who I consider my friends in that house/world. The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 LDS, Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian, Warrior Link to comment
Anakin7 Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 1 hour ago, sunstoned said: Do you have a point to make here? That is why January 23, 2016 pops up as a date in one of my above posts. Salvation Is In Christ Jesus The Person. Anakin7 LDS, Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian, Warrior Link to comment
Anakin7 Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 49 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Dead thread walking. This is from two years ago and the OP was banned a long time back. I meant my last post responding to JLHPROF statement. Link to comment
cdowis Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 (edited) 10 hours ago, Mhcapa1 said: Despite God saying before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me, I haven't found an lds person that has been able to give me a reasonable answer to these questions, they just tell me I need to have faith... Here is your answer Isa 43 [10] Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God **formed** neither shall there be after me. Isa 44 [10] Who hath formed a god, or molten a graven image that is profitable for nothing? A "formed god" is an idol. ------------------------------------------------ Well, let’s see what else the Bible tells us John 17 [22] And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: [23] I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. Rev 3 [21] To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. Rom 8 [17] And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. This is not polytheism, but we become joint-heirs with Christ == ONE God. Edited February 25, 2018 by cdowis Link to comment
cdowis Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, Mhcapa1 said: But then I'd have to throw out more things Jesus said and Paul said... Like Jesus in Matthew 22:24-32 Those guys followed the law of God given through Moses in regards to God's commands on marriage, were married on Earth, and Jesus is saying that they will not be married in heaven but will be like the angels of God in heaven. NO, He said Luke 20 [34] And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: [35] But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: It must be done on earth within a temple by those who have authority. Edited February 25, 2018 by cdowis 1 Link to comment
Kevin Christensen Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 Regarding contextless proof-texting, and some of its general hazards and specific implications in the case of a quotes from 2nd Isaiah, there is this: https://publications.mi.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=2694&index=7 Quote Barker says, “the prophecies of the Second Isaiah were, I believe, an interpretation of the ancient cult myth, and it was the experience of the exile which prompted the reinterpretation in terms of actual historical events.”9 Barker’s line of interpretation is fresh and fascinating: The message of the prophet was that the divine word, as depicted in the myths and rituals of the old cult, had been fulfilled in history. The First Isaiah had interpreted the events of his own time in terms of that myth; the Second Isaiah completed this interpretation by showing that the lesser deities, the sons of the gods and all that they represented, really had been defeated and judged. They had ceased to exist . . . The final defeat and destruction of the old gods, however, left several aspects of the original scheme adrift. The defeated beings had formerly borne the burden of the origin of evil, a necessary function in any theological scheme; they had been the opposing forces in the struggle to establish order in creation.10 Barker sees a “distinct pattern of association” running through verses in Isaiah 41 through 48: [Isaiah] 41:21 introduces the former things. [Isaiah] 42:8–9 says the former things have happened. 43:9ff challenges other nations to demonstrate their power by showing the former things and bringing their witnesses. . . . The powerlessness of these witnesses is part of a complex declaration of monotheism. 44:6–8 and 45:20–1 have the theme of the former things, but not the actual phrase. Both emphasize that power to know the future is proof of divinity. 46:8–10 demands that transgressors remember the former things. 48:3–5 says the former things were declared by Yahweh long ago, and have happened. The climax of two passages (Isaiah 43:13; 46:9), and the emphasis elsewhere at Isaiah 40:18 and 45:14, shows that the other great shift which formed the theology of the Second Isaiah was that Yahweh the Holy One of Israel was also El. Israel was therefore no longer at the mercy of contending angelic forces, of which her Yahweh was but one. If Yahweh was El, the others were nothing. In contrast to these passages, we find one other, Isaiah 43:16–19, which follows upon the court scene where the gods are declared to be nothing. Here, and only here, the prophet exhorts to forget the former things, and a whole new understanding of Yahweh is outlined.11 For me, a most intriguing aspect of Barker’s line of argument here is that only one of these passages, from Isaiah 48 about fulfillment of prophecy, appears in the Book of Mormon.12 None of the rest of the argument appears, and that passage by itself does not sustain it. Therefore, the possibility remains that these passages, which are key to Barker’s argument, could have been composed, edited, or reinterpreted after Lehi’s departure from Jerusalem. I'm citing Barker's The Older Testament on Second Isaiah. Also very relevant is The Great Angel: A Study of Israel's Second God. FWIW Kevin Christensen Canonsburg, PA 2 Link to comment
Jeanne Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 I am sorry...I stepped into The Twilight Zone for a moment. Link to comment
Mhcapa1 Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 @Anakin7 "This happens when you are immersed in a modern rightwing evangelical house/world." You're right, most people automatically bring biases with them to any new information presented. Bias isn't necessarily a bad word... More like the "lens" people see things through. The trick is to recognize your bias, set it aside, and keep it out of the way as you lay out and analyze all the information. @cdowis Thank you. You're answer led me to relook at those verses. אל Is translated as "God" and "god" 43:10, 43:12, and 44:10 אל Based on context etc can mean: god, god-like one, mighty one mighty men, men of rank, mighty heroes angels god, false god, (demons, imaginations) God, the one true God, Jehovah mighty things in nature strength, power You pointing out "formed" there - that is interesting. So you're telling me what God was saying there is: Before me no idols were formed and neither shall there be any idols formed after me (But as for real Gods, there were many Gods before me and there will be many real Gods after me.)? ..... Then you said - John 17 [22] And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: [23] I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. Rev 3 [21] To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. Rom 8 [17] And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. This is not polytheism, but we become joint-heirs with Christ == ONE God. ...with this line of questions that I posted ... I get the same response from other lds people when I ask these... They go to the Godhead and... Maybe it's me... I don't understand why they keep trying to explain to me the "one in purpose" idea... Maybe it keeps going back to the ""one in purpose" thing bc you and they are trying to tell me that "one in purpose" extends to the lds teachings of billions of gods before God the father and lds teaching on all the future gods (exalted humans) that come after Him? That in the lds mind "God" is really just a term that encapsolates all of the previous gods, along with God the father, Jesus, the holy spirit, and all the future lds people that would be exalted to be gods themselves? Link to comment
Mhcapa1 Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 @Cdowis Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother. Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother: Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh. And last of all the woman died also. Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her. Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. Matthew 22:24-32 KJVhttps://bible.com/bible/1/mat.22.24-32.KJV in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her. Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection *they* neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. He says *they*, meaning the 7 brothers and the one woman that all married, on Earth, according to the way God told them to... So youve got people who followed the law of God given through Moses in regards to God's commands on marriage, were married on Earth, and Jesus is saying that they will not be married in heaven but will be like the angels of God in heaven. If you want to say no - he was saying "the children of this Earth" and not referring to the people he was asked about when he said "they" Then I have to ask - All the Isrelites that married the way they were told to via Moses way before Joseph Smith ... What about them? There were brothers marrying their deceased brothers widows and giving them children to continue their brother's name.... because that's what God said to do via Moses in the OT. Would you have done that? My point is those guys were doing something most modern people would not do - marry their deceased brothers widow and have children with her to continue their brothers lineage - because of their devotion to God.... And Jesus says nope they don't qualify for godhood but these guys over here that got married in this special building yeah they can be gods? Link to comment
Mhcapa1 Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 @all No one has answered the rest of my question And Jesus in Matthew 19:12 says some choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven (If you don't know what a eunuch is - go take a look at that) And Paul doesn't say you must be married either - Look at 1 Corinthians 7 He says it's fine either way, married or not married. He even says bc single people are not burdened with concerns that come with marriage they might focus more on serving God. So why would Jesus and Paul say this stuff and not a single mention of get married so you can live with God in the highest level of heaven and have spirit children etc if exaltation etc is the goal and it was required? Link to comment
Bernard Gui Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Mhcapa1 said: @all No one has answered the rest of my question And Jesus in Matthew 19:12 says some choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven (If you don't know what a eunuch is - go take a look at that) And Paul doesn't say you must be married either - Look at 1 Corinthians 7 He says it's fine either way, married or not married. He even says bc single people are not burdened with concerns that come with marriage they might focus more on serving God. So why would Jesus and Paul say this stuff and not a single mention of get married so you can live with God in the highest level of heaven and have spirit children etc if exaltation etc is the goal and it was required? Speaking of eunuchs, we just visited the remains of the Shaker Village while visiting relatives in Kentucky. Wonderful museum staffed by nice people who are not Shakers. Their movement was wonderful while it lasted, but they’re all gone now..... God will not force you into something you don’t need or desire, but if we do good, we won’t ever lose our reward.There are many rooms in his house, rooms enough for everyone, married or not married. They will all be filled with unimaginable love and joy. They will be glorious beyond anything we can imagine, but each room will have its own character, furnishings, activities, possibilities. We can even visit each other once in a while, check in on how things are going! Some of the rooms will have doors that enter into larger rooms with more entrances that lead to more and more....an eternal progression and increase of rooms and possibilities. We all can go into those rooms if we know how, but you don’t have to if you don’t want to. “Know this, that every soul is free to choose his life and what he’ll be; for this eternal truth is given: that God will force no man to heaven.” Edited February 26, 2018 by Bernard Gui 1 Link to comment
Mhcapa1 Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 I agree that we have free will and that God is always ready and waiting for people who will pause from "focusing horizontally" so to speak, pause from focusing solely on the the way we see things down here, and seek Him, "look up" so to speak. Another passage in Isaiah comes to mind: For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord . For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. Isaiah 55:8-11 KJV And Ive read about Joseph Smith having the attitude that religious freedom was good. As written here: Many of Joseph Smith’s earlier statements and actions reflected these feelings as well. The Nauvoo City Council had passed an ordinance in 1841 declaring, “Catholics, Presbyterians, Methodists, Baptists, Latter-day Saints, Quakers, Episcopals, Universalists, Unitarians, Mohammedans [Muslims], and all other religious sects and denominations whatever, shall have free toleration, and equal privileges in this city.” A substantial fine and a prison term of six months could be the punishment for “any person be guilty of ridiculing, abusing, or otherwise depreciating another, in consequence of his religion, or of disturbing, or interrupting, any religious meeting.” The English socialist and religious skeptic John Finch seemed stunned when he visited Nauvoo that Joseph Smith “was in the practice of inviting strangers, who visited Nauvoo, of every shade of politics or religion, to lecture to his people.” Joseph told Finch that “he allowed liberty of conscience to all, and was not afraid of any party drawing his people away from him.” The surprised Finch reported Joseph was “liberal and charitable in speaking of other sects [and] said the great principle of Christianity was love.” https://www.deseretnews.com/article/865692759/Op-ed-Joseph-Smith-was-a-champion-of-religious-liberty.html That's all great, but How can one read those things that Paul wrote and Jesus said, and not see the discrepancy between the lds doctrine and their statements? How can I place my faith in the lds doctrine of regression of gods, ability for all humans to become gods, necessity of sealed marriage to become a god, necessity of dietary restriction to be baptized.... How can I place my faith in all of that without taking my faith out of what Jesus and Paul taught? It's like when I ask these questions I just get "you have to have faith", shifting to God is one but it's one in purpose, avoidance of answers to my questions, and then we're not forcing you to believe everyone has freewill... I'm not saying anyone's forcing anyone to believe anything... It's just when lds tell me that their doctrine is supported by the Bible, I'm going ok... Can you please explain to me how these passages fit with lds doctrine? Then there's the question I have about being born again. I still don't get how are existence fits with that either... Link to comment
Mhcapa1 Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness..." Gen 1:26 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. ... And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:1-3, 10-14 "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness ... ...God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. Gen 1:26-27 Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Genesis 2:7 "...in the day that you eat from it you will surely die." Genesis 2:16-17 ...she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate. Genesis 3:6 By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return." Genesis 3:19-21 When Adam had lived one hundred and thirty years, he became the father of a son in HIS own likeness, according to HIS image, and named him Seth. Genesis 5:3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again. ” “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!” Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. John 3:3-6 Jesus said to her, “Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. You people worship what you do not know. We worship what we know, because salvation is from the Jews. But a time is coming – and now is here – when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such people to be his worshipers. God is spirit, and the people who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.” The woman said to him, “I know that Messiah is coming” (the one called Christ); “whenever he comes, he will tell us everything.” Jesus said to her, “I, the one speaking to you, am he.” John 4:21-26 John 6:47-66 Matthew 26:17-19, 26-29 And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit. At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. Matthew 27:50-54 On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jewish leaders, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord. Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.” John 20:19-23 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being” ; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man. I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” “Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?” The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 15:45-57 Link to comment
Mhcapa1 Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 If everyone starts as a spirit... Then gets a fleshly body... Then why did Jesus say: But a time is coming – and now is here – when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such people to be his worshipers. God is spirit, and the people who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.” John 4:21-26 And Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again. ” ...“Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. John 3:3-6 ? Link to comment
USU78 Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said: Speaking of eunuchs, we just visited the remains of the Shaker Village while visiting relatives in Kentucky. Wonderful museum staffed by nice people who are not Shakers. Their movement was wonderful while it lasted, but they’re all gone now..... God will not force you into something you don’t need or desire, but if we do good, we won’t ever lose our reward.There are many rooms in his house, rooms enough for everyone, married or not married. They will all be filled with unimaginable love and joy. They will be glorious beyond anything we can imagine, but each room will have its own character, furnishings, activities, possibilities. We can even visit each other once in a while, check in on how things are going! Some of the rooms will have doors that enter into larger rooms with more entrances that lead to more and more....an eternal progression and increase of rooms and possibilities. We all can go into those rooms if we know how, but you don’t have to if you don’t want to. “Know this, that every soul is free to choose his life and what he’ll be; for this eternal truth is given: that God will force no man to heaven.” I had the honor to sing that at conference a few years back. Love the hymn. 1 Link to comment
Recommended Posts