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BHodges

"Planted", new book from Maxwell Institute on doubt and faith

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2 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said:

I wasn't aware it ever left? Unless of course you misunderstood common consent to be some sort of democractic voting mechanism, then I could understand your confusion.

Pretty sure that's his understanding. A lot of people have that misconception. 

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3 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said:

I wasn't aware it ever left? Unless of course you misunderstood common consent to be some sort of democractic voting mechanism, then I could understand your confusion.

It used to be more democratic in the early days of the church (or so I understand). Maybe they were doing common consent wrong, and now we've finally got it right?

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I have not read Mason's new book, but I did listen to him talk about it on a Dialogue podcast a few months ago.

He seems like an intelligent and compassionate person.

The one reservation I have about his presentation is the same reservation I have with the Givens and others of the "new Mormon apologetic" movement.

While recognizing that there are some problems in how Mormons think about their religion, Mason always blamed the members for the misperceptions.  Terryl Givens does a similar thing.

Over and over while listening to Mason's presentation, I found myself saying, "The reason Mormons believe those things is because it is what their leaders have been teaching their entire lives!"

The seminal rule of the new apologetic, it seems, is to never lay responsibility at the feet of the leaders for the wrong things they have taught.

Safer just to blame the members, as if the members came up with these concepts out of thin air.

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Previously, I have mentioned this book when I first started reading it..I was very impressed that he understood how those of us felt that had left or was having doubts.  He does have a handle on this.  As I read further, I became a bit disappointed because it went right back to being "my fault"..."my problem"..and it put a huge weight upon my shoulders again.  In any other doubt in the universe, one is able to find some solace in not placing total blame on any one particular thing, but by a balance of thought somewhere.  Sometimes, I guess, there is no give and take, just a division that can't be bridged. 

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I'm taking several hours a week of quiet time each week doing a few minutes of devotional time and prayer, often sitting somewhere along the banks of the Mississippi, Missouri, and/or Missouri river(s). Along with Scripture, Mason/Ash/Givens books are often a part of that quiet time. 

I sometimes also try to read a few lines of one of the above ere I go to sleep, generally until the book falls on my face a couple or three times. (That's not a joke, but it IS funny, so feel free to laugh: my wife & daughter, who have to come in and wrest the book away and remind me to put my CPAP mask on, laugh at me all the time).

Once I finish Patrick's book, I'll try to do a overview.

'Twould be nice if someone could persuade Mr. Mason to join the board and weigh in personally. I miss the days when even Dan Vogel and Richard Abanes popped in and braved the slings and arrows of participants here in dicussing their work. 

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2 hours ago, flameburns623 said:

That is far beyond what Patrick Mason is saying 

He believes that the LDS Church definitely WANTS and NEEDS to preserve the roles of Prophets and Apostles as unique spokespersons for God. 

However, he recognizes that sometimes these leaders have spoken out-of-turn on God's behalf, and Saints need a touchstone by which to distinguish doctrinal versus binding versus speculative comments.

Not far removed from the very careful ways in which the RCC defines 'ex cathedra' Papal pronouncements from other sorts of statements. 

Or the distinctions in both the EO and RCC between dogmatic "ecumenical councils" as opposed to merely locally-binding councils. 

That's the problem, there is no "touchstone" other than the (unofficial) one of "if lots of people say it then it's more reliable."

If the only measure of reliability is consensus then it's always going to be open to error. There's absolutely no reason why all 15 couldn't be wrong at the same time. Even if they had a special "speaking officially/doctrinally" they could (and have) still made statements that have later been refuted. 

And don't worry, I know it's not what Mason is saying. It's what I'm saying. 

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30 minutes ago, flameburns623 said:

I'm taking several hours a week of quiet time each week doing a few minutes of devotional time and prayer, often sitting somewhere along the banks of the Mississippi, Missouri, and/or Missouri river(s). Along with Scripture, Mason/Ash/Givens books are often a part of that quiet time. 

I sometimes also try to read a few lines of one of the above ere I go to sleep, generally until the book falls on my face a couple or three times. (That's not a joke, but it IS funny, so feel free to laugh: my wife & daughter, who have to come in and wrest the book away and remind me to put my CPAP mask on, laugh at me all the time).

Once I finish Patrick's book, I'll try to do a overview.

'Twould be nice if someone could persuade Mr. Mason to join the board and weigh in personally. I miss the days when even Dan Vogel and Richard Abanes popped in and braved the slings and arrows of participants here in dicussing their work. 

So long as we're reminiscing, I miss Dan Peterson's regular presence here. 

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1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

So long as we're reminiscing, I miss Dan Peterson's regular presence here. 

Did Dr. Peterson once roam these halls and actually interact?  As long as I have been here, he's only come along to post a link to his latest article.

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2 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Did Dr. Peterson once roam these halls and actually interact?  As long as I have been here, he's only come along to post a link to his latest article.

He even interacted with me a handful of times. 

Yes, he actually interacted with the board members quite freely.

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15 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Did Dr. Peterson once roam these halls and actually interact?  As long as I have been here, he's only come along to post a link to his latest article.

He did.  I enjoy his contributions.  then again I'm not all upset at him like a whole set of board members on another board are.  I recall trying my darndest to convince him to stop participating on that other board, finally he did.  And, to note, he was right.  they haven't really let up on him. 

I can't help bringing it up.  It was such a fascinating thing--their continued assault on his character.  It was cute, as I recall, the latest time I noticed he mentioned their defamation or attacks on his blog, trying to address it, they got a bit giddy saying "he still can't help himself by paying attention to us".  Oh the lack of self-awareness of that crew was just too much.  I'm going to head back over and see what the big fuss is these days. 

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2 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

He did.  I enjoy his contributions.  then again I'm not all upset at him like a whole set of board members on another board are.  I recall trying my darndest to convince him to stop participating on that other board, finally he did.  And, to note, he was right.  they haven't really let up on him. 

I can't help bringing it up.  It was such a fascinating thing--their continued assault on his character.  It was cute, as I recall, the latest time I noticed he mentioned their defamation or attacks on his blog, trying to address it, they got a bit giddy saying "he still can't help himself by paying attention to us".  Oh the lack of self-awareness of that crew was just too much.  I'm going to head back over and see what the big fuss is these days. 

What is this other board that people here often refer to?

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7 minutes ago, rockpond said:

What is this other board that people here often refer to?

Mormon discussions forum. I'd link but I think that's frowned upon. 

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2 minutes ago, rockpond said:

What is this other board that people here often refer to?

Well the one I refer to is Mormon discussions dot com.  But I think we're not supposed to link to it. 

So five or six years ago I found myself posting over there, when this one was going through changes (or when it was the fair discussion board and changed or something) and I got a bit hooked.  Dr. Peterson, at that time was fairly frequently there.  Back then, I'd observe nearly half the topics on page 1 were dedicated to mocking him or attacking him.  So they fascinated me--just that shameless anger towards others.  They don't seem to be nearly as upset these days as different players are involved and few LDS post there. But at last check there was still some noise there about Dr. Peterson. 

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Alright I need to set the record straight.  I just popped up that other site and noted in the Terrestrial forum, the busiest of them, of the 50 topics on the first page, not one explicitly mentions Dr. Peterson.  I don't really recognize the participators at first glance, oh wait, maybe a couple.  But, I thought I should clarify on that.  Maybe they have given up on him.  And that'd be a good thing.  I might even re-log in and say hi.  then again....maybe not.  We'll see. 

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1 hour ago, rockpond said:

Did Dr. Peterson once roam these halls and actually interact?  As long as I have been here, he's only come along to post a link to his latest article.

In the golden age, he was one of the most prolific and arguably the most popular of the posters here.

In fact, his presence on the old FAIR board (predecessor to this one before the divestiture) was the main drawing card that motivated my coming on board many moons ago.

I think he got fed up with the nonsense here and opted to start his own blog. But that's just a guess; he would have to confirm or deny that.

ETA: That was not so very long before you came along, actually.

Edited by Scott Lloyd

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25 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Well the one I refer to is Mormon discussions dot com.  But I think we're not supposed to link to it. 

So five or six years ago I found myself posting over there, when this one was going through changes (or when it was the fair discussion board and changed or something) and I got a bit hooked.  Dr. Peterson, at that time was fairly frequently there.  Back then, I'd observe nearly half the topics on page 1 were dedicated to mocking him or attacking him.  So they fascinated me--just that shameless anger towards others.  They don't seem to be nearly as upset these days as different players are involved and few LDS post there. But at last check there was still some noise there about Dr. Peterson. 

The man is pretty much invincible in argumentation. That's why so many have resorted to below-the-belt cheap shots and vile character assassination. That's the only way they believe they can prevail over him.

My opinion, of course, but I'm standing by it.

 

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5 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

The man is pretty much invincible in argumentation. That's why so many have resorted to below-the-belt cheap shots and vile character assassination. That's the only way they believe they can prevail over him.

My opinion, of course, but I'm standing by it.

 

I think you're close on this.  Invincible might be overstating it, as even in all the hostility there've been some pretty good critiques of his points too.  But I do say his voice is a valued one, for me.  I find myself agreeing with him most of the time.  His mormonstories podcast was awesome.  He pretty much refutes all the complaints about him, just by being himself. 

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Resurrection: does anyone know if PQ Mason has changed his views on his book, or if there are new editions planned or anything? Just curious.

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1 hour ago, Bede said:

Resurrection: does anyone know if PQ Mason has changed his views on his book, or if there are new editions planned or anything? Just curious.

Oh, come on!  It's bad enough when someone doesn't pay any attention to the date of the most recent previous post on a thread and, thus, resurrects a 4-1/2-year-old stinky dead thread!  It's really bad when someone does pay attention to the last post date and resurrects the thread anyway! :rolleyes: :huh:

(Just razzin' ya, Bede! ;) :D)

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And even better: look who is on this thread...RFM himself!

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23 minutes ago, Bede said:

And even better: look who is on this thread...RFM himself!

Yep, I've seen lots of faces from the old days. ;)

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3 hours ago, Bede said:

Resurrection: does anyone know if PQ Mason has changed his views on his book, or if there are new editions planned or anything? Just curious.

I don't know about his views on the book and I haven't heard anything about a new edition, but this past May PQ Mason published a piece and a sat down for a follow-up conversation with FaithMatters. It might serve as a bit of a snapshot into his current thinking. 

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On 1/19/2016 at 6:14 PM, BHodges said:

Funny you should ask, there's an interlude in the book, a reflection on Thomas, that I quite like. 

 

Thanks, consig and reads. 

Anyone interested in my offer of a digital version of the book? 

Yes.

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, JamesBYoung said:

Yes.

Blair doesn't hang out here anymore.  I doubt he will see the request.  You might contact him through the Maxwell Institute as he works there.

I think the offer was just to promote the book, get people talking about it, likely not available now 4 years later.

Edited by Calm

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I know Blair, so I can do that

Why does he not hang out here?

 

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