Popular Post sethpayne Posted October 29, 2015 Popular Post Share Posted October 29, 2015 In another thread Brother Lloyd made the following comment: Yeah, can't we all just get along? That is, up until the next time somebody feels disposed to bash Mormonism again. How common is this sentiment? If critics are rude or present silly arguments does that mean we are justified if we respond in kind? My personal view is that we are not justified. There are a few reasons for this: 21Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? 22Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven. 9Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.10Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.11Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. 12Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. 38Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. 41And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. 42Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. Now, heaven knows that I fail miserably at this all the time. I think most of us do. Jesus would be embarrassed by my posting history. But I still think this is an ideal to strive for -- even knowing that as human beings we will consistently fall short. "But wait Seth! Don't you know that Jesus turned over tables and whipped people into shape! That he called the scribes names and wasn't very nice to the religious leadership of his day?" I do know that. And I know a couple of other things too. 1) I'm not Jesus and 2) Jesus didn't command his disciples to turn over tables. In fact, he commanded the opposite. Until Jesus gives the explicit go ahead to be a jerk, I'll stick with His teachings in John and Matthew. Anyway, I'm just curious to how folks view this issue. If ex-Mormons mock us are we justified in mocking them? If an "apostate" gives an opinion you think is heresy, are you justified in condemning them or mocking their faith in response? 6 Link to comment
bluebell Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 No, i don't think that an eye for an eye is really ever justified. It's possible to defend beliefs without becoming the thing you are defending them against. The whole 'disagree without being disagreeable' issue. Like you said though, it's hard. 2 Link to comment
jkwilliams Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 Of course it doesn't justify bad behavior, but that doesn't stop us from using bad behavior as an excuse to return the favor. All too often, things escalate and get ugly, and yet neither person sees the part they played in the escalation. I'm Exhibit A, as I have finally had to put someone on "ignore" because neither of us seems to be able to respond with civility to each other, no matter what we're talking about. We'd probably get along just fine if we had lunch, and if I'm ever out where he lives, I may just buy him lunch. But for whatever reason, our posts to each other inevitably lead to rancor. But the cycle only repeats itself if both participants are willing to keep it going and get in the last dig. As I said in another thread, ridicule and mockery never come from a good place. I'm trying to do better. 1 Link to comment
sethpayne Posted October 29, 2015 Author Share Posted October 29, 2015 No, i don't think that an eye for an eye is really ever justified. It's possible to defend beliefs without becoming the thing you are defending them against. The whole 'disagree without being disagreeable' issue. Like you said though, it's hard. I think one thing that makes it tough is that our religious lives are so closely tied to our own sense of self and identity. So when our beliefs are questioned, it feels like a person is attacking us personally. In a way trying to rip away a huge part of what we love and what makes us, well, us. 3 Link to comment
sethpayne Posted October 29, 2015 Author Share Posted October 29, 2015 (edited) Of course it doesn't justify bad behavior, but that doesn't stop us from using bad behavior as an excuse to return the favor. All too often, things escalate and get ugly, and yet neither person sees the part they played in the escalation. I'm Exhibit A, as I have finally had to put someone on "ignore" because neither of us seems to be able to respond with civility to each other, no matter what we're talking about. We'd probably get along just fine if we had lunch, and if I'm ever out where he lives, I may just buy him lunch. But for whatever reason, our posts to each other inevitably lead to rancor.But the cycle only repeats itself if both participants are willing to keep it going and get in the last dig. As I said in another thread, ridicule and mockery never come from a good place. I'm trying to do better. Well, John. We all know that MDDB would be a much more civil and pleasant environment if you were to take your hate-mongering and mocking tone elsewhere. PS -- I've had to put a couple of people on ignore for the same reason. My interactions with them were consistently negative and toxic and I reached the point where I saw the absolute pointlessness of continuing conversation. PSS -- in those cases mentioned above I want to make it clear that I was equally responsible for the toxic tone and negativity. It is very easy to fall into the trap. Edited October 29, 2015 by sethpayne Link to comment
jkwilliams Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 I think one thing that makes it tough is that our religious lives are so closely tied to our own sense of self and identity. So when our beliefs are questioned, it feels like a person is attacking us personally. In a way trying to rip away a huge part of what we love and what makes us, well, us. That is exactly right. I think most people who satirize other people's beliefs understand that and, consciously or not, are mocking the person as well as the belief. Link to comment
bluebell Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 I think one thing that makes it tough is that our religious lives are so closely tied to our own sense of self and identity. So when our beliefs are questioned, it feels like a person is attacking us personally. In a way trying to rip away a huge part of what we love and what makes us, well, us. True. I think that sometimes it becomes very much about being 'right' and not liking it when people disagree with us about something that we feel so sure about and that we feel is so important too. We let our pride interfere. 1 Link to comment
jkwilliams Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 Well, John. We all know that MDDB would be a much more civil and pleasant environment if you were to take your hate-mongering and mocking tone elsewhere. PS -- I've had to put a couple of people on ignore for the same reason. My interactions with them were consistently negative and toxic and I reached the point where I saw the absolute pointlessness of continuing conversation. I just pretend to be nice here. I'm awful everywhere else. Or so I'm told. The sad thing for me is that, without exception, I have enjoyed meeting every poster from this and other boards IRL. Some of the most enjoyable meetings I've had were with people with whom I completely disagree, such as a certain relative of yours (who has good taste in food, btw). But get us behind a couple of keyboards, and it's hopeless (not saying that about your relative). Link to comment
sethpayne Posted October 29, 2015 Author Share Posted October 29, 2015 (edited) That is exactly right. I think most people who satirize other people's beliefs understand that and, consciously or not, are mocking the person as well as the belief. I blogged about this last year. Specifically I was asking whether it is wrong to mock religious belief. After stating that my view is that it IS -- in the vast majority of cases -- wrong to mock the beliefs of others: I base my position that mocking religious belief is immoral on the broad moral principle that intentionally seeking to harm others — emotionally or physically — is wrong. Given that religious belief often plays a central role in how a person defines themselves it should not be surprising that insults to religious views are often an indirect insult to the person who holds them. As a result if we were to belittle the person of Jesus, this would likely be hurtful to a person who maintains belief in the divinity of Jesus. Similarly, if we refer to monotheism as belief in “an invisible Sky Daddy” we insult not only the major Abrahamic religions of the world but also those who accept those systems of belief. A Christian who presents a caricature of atheism and irresponsibly makes blanket statements about atheists is equally insulting. But why should religious views be given special consideration? Certainly not because of their religious character. Rather, religious beliefs fall under a type of belief that William James called “instrumental truth” or truth which human beings utilize to create cohesive “truth narratives” which helps individuals make sense of the world. There are many types of beliefs and views that are major components to a truth narrative. These can include, but are certainly not limited to, views on science, politics, philosophy, economics, etc… Mocking or belittling views that define truth narratives is bound to be hurtful to individuals. It is no wonder then, that it is commonly said to avoid both religion and politics in polite conversation. These beliefs are much more than abstract notions. Rather, they define how a person understands the workings of the universe and perhaps most importantly, an individual’s place within it. These beliefs are shared among all people to one degree or another. Some are more deeply committed to metaphysical claims while others are similarly committed to logical positivism. Religious views, therefore, should not be given special treatment because they are religious but simply because mocking or belittling them is very likely to be hurtful to those who take such views seriously. Many ideological views should be treated the same way. So speaking more broadly it would be more accurate to say that it is immoral to mock or belittle views and beliefs that are central to individual identity. Edited October 29, 2015 by sethpayne Link to comment
jkwilliams Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 True. I think that sometimes it becomes very much about being 'right' and not liking it when people disagree with us about something that we feel so sure about and that we feel is so important too. We let our pride interfere. Yep. It is one of my life's goals to put being good ahead of being right. Still working on it. I read the other day that all humans recognize that we are not infallible and can be wrong about a lot of things, but when surveyed, people invariably have trouble coming up with a single thing they believe they are wrong about. Link to comment
stemelbow Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 I think it's universally agreed that being mean to another is wrong, no matter if they started it. But we all still get a little mean about others. It's awesome that we always fail, huh? Link to comment
jkwilliams Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 I think it's universally agreed that being mean to another is wrong, no matter if they started it. But we all still get a little mean about others. It's awesome that we always fail, huh?We always do. I know I said unkind things to you way back when, but I am glad we got past all that, as I value our friendship. Maybe there is hope for other toxic relationships. Thanks for forgiving me. Link to comment
sethpayne Posted October 29, 2015 Author Share Posted October 29, 2015 I think it's universally agreed that being mean to another is wrong, no matter if they started it. But we all still get a little mean about others. It's awesome that we always fail, huh? Do you really think it is universal, Stem? I get the impression at times that both exmos and mos believe themselves to be in a battle royale where getting the upper hand is justified. And I would agree that it is awesome to fail as long as we learn from the mistake. If we don't, then failure stinks, IMO. Link to comment
provoman Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 From another thread, which incidently the promotion of ill behavior towards critics: From an talk from Elder Perry titled "The Peaceable Followers of Christ":“But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you.”“But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.”“Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.”“But charity is the pure love of Christ, and it endureth forever; and whoso is found possessed of it at the last day, it shall be well with him.” And from the Book of Mormon: Wherefore, I would speak unto you that are of the church, that are the peaceable followers of Christ, and that have obtained a sufficient hope by which ye can enter into the rest of the Lord, from this time henceforth until ye shall rest with him in heaven. And from Christ: Blessed are the peacemakers...Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness...Blessed are the meek....Blessed are the pure of heart.... Juveniles take the approach of "he did it first". 1 Link to comment
jkwilliams Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 Do you really think it is universal, Stem? I get the impression at times that both exmos and mos believe themselves to be in a battle royale where getting the upper hand is justified.And I would agree that it is awesome to fail as long as we learn from the mistake. If we don't, then failure stinks, IMO.I see that "battle royale" mentality all the time. It's ridiculous, but some people are mired in it. Link to comment
CA Steve Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 (edited) Are all religious beliefs and criticism worthy of the same respect? Edited October 29, 2015 by CA Steve Link to comment
ksfisher Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 Does bad behavior justify more bad behavior? It's threads like this that make me miss Nehor. Link to comment
bluebell Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 (edited) Are all religious beliefs worthy of the same respect? I think that answer depends on whether or not you believe all people are worthy of the same respect. I don't know that it's possible to disrespect a religious belief and still show respect to the person that holds it. Another good question (to help answer your's) is to ask "would i ok with someone disrespecting my beliefs because they don't personally believe they are worthy of respect?" The answer to that is probably different for each person. The general idea though is that we can't be mad when other people treat us like we treat other people. Edited October 29, 2015 by bluebell 1 Link to comment
sethpayne Posted October 29, 2015 Author Share Posted October 29, 2015 (edited) Are all religious beliefs and criticism worthy of the same respect? Criticism is different from mockery. I would argue that in nearly all cases religious belief is worthy of respect but NOT immune from criticism. Edited October 29, 2015 by sethpayne 2 Link to comment
sethpayne Posted October 29, 2015 Author Share Posted October 29, 2015 Does bad behavior justify more bad behavior? It's threads like this that make me miss Nehor. Isn't he still around? I thought the NCMO campaign was still in full effect! Link to comment
jkwilliams Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 Criticism is different from mockery. I would argue that in nearly all cases religious belief is worthy of respect but NOT immune from criticism. Yep. I think some religious beliefs are silly, and some are downright dangerous. But criticizing beliefs one disagrees with is not the same as mocking them. Link to comment
Duncan Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 it cuts both ways, as Mosiah 27:2 says we shouldn't persecute those who belong to the Church and then in Alma 1:21 it says that those who belong shouldn't persecute those who don't. As we all know if we are persecuted by whomever we'll be blessed, but don't go looking for trouble. Persecute is a strong word and I have never seen anyone coming to blows over a message board but I think we teach others how we want to be treated Link to comment
ksfisher Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 Isn't he still around? I thought the NCMO campaign was still in full effect! He's taking some time away from the board. There's a thread somewhere where he explains why. Link to comment
sethpayne Posted October 29, 2015 Author Share Posted October 29, 2015 it cuts both ways, as Mosiah 27:2 says we shouldn't persecute those who belong to the Church and then in Alma 1:21 it says that those who belong shouldn't persecute those who don't. As we all know if we are persecuted by whomever we'll be blessed, but don't go looking for trouble. Persecute is a strong word and I have never seen anyone coming to blows over a message board but I think we teach others how we want to be treated Well, we know you are always stirring up trouble my Canadian friend! And I should say that I think this applies much more broadly than to message boards. Unfortunately online communication amplifies this but I've seen this kind of stuff spill over into real life. I kid you not, I received a death threat via email because some exmo didn't like my Dialogue article a couple of years ago. Obviously the dude didn't have it all together -- but it does show the us vs them attitude that seems to permeate discussions of religion. If you disagree wtih me you aren't just wrong ... you are an evil oppressor! 1 Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 (edited) In another thread Brother Lloyd made the following comment: How common is this sentiment? If critics are rude or present silly arguments does that mean we are justified if we respond in kind? My personal view is that we are not justified. There are a few reasons for this: This, of course, is a spin-off from a thread about a satire. It presupposes that satire is necessarily "bad behavior." I don't hold with that, nor do I regard it as self-evident. Edited October 29, 2015 by Scott Lloyd Link to comment
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