Mormon Noahide Laws

[halconero]

With Rabbinic Judaism there is a tradition of Seven Noahide Laws:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Laws_of_Noah

These were the commandments which God gave unto the "children of Noah," or all of humanity. Non-Jews who keep these laws are considered "righteous gentiles," and assured a place in the world to come.

 

In contrast, the Law of Moses is only considered obligatory on the covenant children of Israel, though many of them cannot be kept with the destruction of the temple:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_commandments

 

The point of this thread is to discuss what Latter-day Saints might consider our Noahide laws, or general commandments which God gives to all of his children currently on the earth. On the other hand, what laws might we consider to be only authoritative for Latter-day Saints, or "covenant-laws" as one might call it?

 

I'll start off: I do not consider the Word of Wisdom something obligatory for a non-Latter-day Saint. Were I to drink, smoke, etc it would be an abrogation of my covenants and prerequisites for entering the temple. On the other hand, my friend Nathan who enjoys a few beers on the weekends is not under the same obligations as I am.

 

In contrast, we might both be considered accountable for our honesty to our fellow humans, honesty being a principle generalized throughout humanity.

[Calm]

Sabbath day seems more for those who have covenanted, but the description is for all mankind...but it could be defined into a generic way to set aside the day for rest from worldly concerns and to worship God as they are inspired to.

[Jacob]

The problem I have with this is that you are judging others based on something they probably don't believe in. I left the Church because of the judgmental nature of the majority of LDS in Utah. It became more than I was willing to bear. Some things that receive a lot of criticism are styles of dress, tattoos (which I do not recall having a doctrinal basis, just an advice base) and drinking/smoking. Beyond this, interaction with people who are considered to be doing one of these things tends to cause some level of ostracism. I think that the teachings of Christ would lean more towards accepting whatever good is there and reinforcing successive approximations to the end goal. I would state that it would be best to accept everyone and live as best as one can. Christians should not be throwing stones. I understand your point here, but really this type of thing is simply a means of judging the acceptability of others. There are already plenty of rules being used for that purpose.

[Calm]

"The problem I have with this is that you are judging others based on something they probably don't believe in"

You don't think honesty is a principle that all people believe in?

The Sabbath is a pretty widespread practice and can probably be applied to any theistic faith. Even atheists and agnotists could benefit from a day of rest from normal cares and spend it appreciating nature, the family, their community.

What do you see as inherently wrong in these two ideas?

" I understand your point here, but really this type of thing is simply a means of judging the acceptability of other"

I don'y think you do understand if this is your conclusion.

Edited September 1, 2015 by calmoriah

[Jacob]

Calmoriah:

 

"Non-Jews who keep these laws are considered "righteous gentiles," and assured a place in the world to come."

 

Why is it anyone on this earth's job to determine this?

 

I agree that there are basic principles that, if lived by, can define a good person. However, my biggest issue is that we don't know the scale. What balances what? In the end, I believe that good people will be "assured a place in the world to come." Given my understanding of the LDS perspective, and my personal views tend to align fine with my understanding of that perspective, it is severely difficult to not get into Heaven. Where is it that someone is not "assured a place in the world to come"?

 

Honesty is valuable, but the most evil person out there could be an honest person. Observing the Sabbath is all well and good, but it does not a righteous person make.

 

It seems that the question in the OP is this:

 

"What are the bare minimum requirements for Heaven?"

 

Given the question is related to the Israelite judging a gentile righteous, it is a question of one person judging another.

 

To what end does this judgment need to be made? Am I mistaken? What other rationale is there for knowing this information?

Edited September 1, 2015 by Jacob

[halconero]

1) I think you're conflating my presentation on Rabbinic Judaism's view on the law with how I view laws and commandments in Latter-day Saint doctrine. That was not my intention. I was merely giving a background on the Noahide Laws, and area that I've crossed in my academic studies.

 

2) No, I'm not trying to play a game of who gets in to heaven. Instead, I'm actually looking closer at us Latter-day Saints. Which laws, revelations, and the such do we believe are only obligatory on us as a people?

 

3) This is a board which analyzes doctrine. So....why not analyze the applicability of it? I'm not talking about judgement, about what you personally have to do or not do to get into heaven. The point of this exercise is to get us beyond universalizing all of our scripture, laws, and prophecies.

 

For example, Valentinus raised a point in another thread that he contends that Latter-day Saint marriage doctrine is only authoritative for Latter-day Saints who have taken on those views and covenants. I want to discuss that point. Is the Family Proclamation relevant only for Latter-day Saints? The whole world? Is the Law of Chastity/Word of Wisdom/Tithing/Sabbath day something the only concerns members, or are they relevant for the whole world?

[Jacob]

Thank you for the clarification.

 

So, is the question regarding what is required to attain Heaven? To attain a specific kingdom? I'm unclear as to what "relevant for the whole world" means.

[halconero]

Calmoriah, the Sabbath day is an interesting one. Certainly, we have scriptures both in the Bible and Latter-day Saint specific scriptures that infer that we should keep a sabbath day as a law (D&C 59 comes to mind). It's inclusion in the Sinai covenant, and the involvement of the sacrament in D&C 59 suggest that it's something specifically for members of the covenant, but at the same time there have been numerous talks/sermons/discussions which address it's applicability to the whole world. 

 

One could read the Genesis account of God's rest and infer that it universalizes the concept, and you read this in Preach My Gospel (which summarizes attitudes and viewpoints of prophets speaking in General Conference): 

 

"When a community or nation grows careless in its Sabbath activities, its religious life decays and all aspects of life are negatively affected. The blessings associated with keeping the Sabbath day holy are lost. We should refrain from shopping on the Sabbath and participating in other commercial and sporting activities that now commonly desecrate the Sabbath."

 

This seems to imply that at least some parts of the Sabbath (refraining from commercial activities/sporting events) have nationwide applicability. While there are some aspects (the sacrament, communal worship, etc that are covenant specific).

[halconero]

Thank you for the clarification.

 

So, is the question regarding what is required to attain Heaven? To attain a specific kingdom? I'm unclear as to what "relevant for the whole world" means.

 

Not even necessarily that. 

 

For instance, I believe that someone probably having a beer right now (let's take our neighbour Leonard) and who isn't paying any tithing to any church is just as eligible for the celestial kingdom as I am. At the same time, I currently have more obligations due to the covenants that I've made than he has. 

 

My question is more along the lines of, "what principles/commandments/guidelines has God given all of his children for a standard of living, versus just Latter-day Saints?" Sure, keeping commandments may be a necessary part of going to heaven. At the same time many principles are given for the temporal blessing of God's children. The above quote on the sabbath seems to imply as such.

 

Let's use the principle of honesty. Should we consider such a principle to be a universal standard among the children of men? By standard I mean a guideline given and authoritative for all of humanity? Authoritative in the sense of "If you do this you will be blessed/be happy/help others be happy/have it counted for goodness by god. If you do not do this (be honest) it is accounted against you as a person/society/people?"

 

I'm not so much weighing the personal lives of people as much as I'm weighing the validity of the laws of God in all cases. 

[Jacob]

So, the question is "Which laws are practical and which are for the purpose of testing obedience and adherence?"

[halconero]

Sure, that's probably one of them. This is a pretty open thread, so if you want to address that point go for it.

 

My personal question is more along the lines of "which laws of God are applicable to me as a Latter-day Saint, and which ones are applicable for my non-member friends?"

So I guess I'll ask you that question. What standards do you believe are applicable and authoritative for all of humanity? Which are ones that only Latter-day Saints need concerning themselves with keeping?

 

You said you believed that Christ's gospel should be centered around accepting whatever "good" is out here. I guess I want to talk about those standards of "good." What is entailed in that? Honesty? Service to our fellow-men? Sabbath? Drinking? Not drinking? 

 

I'm not looking for a specific answer. Let's break this down, unpack it, and explore it.

[Hillel2]

Calmoriah:

"Non-Jews who keep these laws are considered "righteous gentiles," and assured a place in the world to come."

Why is it anyone on this earth's job to determine this?

I agree that there are basic principles that, if lived by, can define a good person. However, my biggest issue is that we don't know the scale. What balances what? In the end, I believe that good people will be "assured a place in the world to come." Given my understanding of the LDS perspective, and my personal views tend to align fine with my understanding of that perspective, it is severely difficult to not get into Heaven. Where is it that someone is not "assured a place in the world to come"?

Honesty is valuable, but the most evil person out there could be an honest person. Observing the Sabbath is all well and good, but it does not a righteous person make.

It seems that the question in the OP is this:

"What are the bare minimum requirements for Heaven?"

Given the question is related to the Israelite judging a gentile righteous, it is a question of one person judging another.

To what end does this judgment need to be made? Am I mistaken? What other rationale is there for knowing this information?

[Jacob]

Hmmm...

 

I would state fidelity in marriage.

A person should impact the world positively.

I don't consider myself LDS. I would consider that from an LDS perspective, laws that should be held for someone not LDS would be those laws that breaking the law impacts other people negatively.

I agree that the WoW would not apply.

 

My view of the Noahide laws from the article you referenced:

1. Do not deny God. 
2. Do not blaspheme God.
3. Do not murder.
4. Do not engage in incest, adultery, pederasty or bestiality, as well as homosexual relations. I do not understand the harm in these aside from adultery, pederasty and bestiality. Adultery impacts another human and bestiality cannot be stated as having the consent of the animal. Incest between adults, while disgusting to me, and homosexuality don't seem to have the impact if consensual.
5. Do not steal.
6. Do not eat of a live animal.
7. Establish courts/legal system to ensure law and obedience. I do not understand the need for a law to establish courts/legal systems. If everyone treated each other properly there would be no need for such. Is this just asking for an enforcement of the above laws?

[Hillel2]

Hello. It is true that any one who follows the Noahide Laws is assured a place in the life to come.

However, their purpose is to determine who gets to live in the Holy Land. Child sacrificing Baal worshipping Canaanites get driven out or subjected to the Ban. Non-Jews who adhere to the NL's can stay because they will not defile the land spiritually.

Here's my question: My understanding is that SOME LDS people (please correct me gently if i have misunderstood) believe in the literal establishment of Zion on the Am. continent. Now, inasmuch as not every one is Lds, will the non lds residents be expected to abide by certain "universal" laws whatever their faith??? For example, if chastity is a universal standard in lds belief and if certain ways of dressing are held by lds people to invite unchaste thoughts and acts, would an lds society require non lds to abide by a dress code...under the Noahide Laws we would.

It seems to me the only place this question of "universal laws would need to be adressed is iin the case of what would happen in a

th-o-odemocratic state.

[Jude2]

1) I think you're conflating my presentation on Rabbinic Judaism's view on the law with how I view laws and commandments in Latter-day Saint doctrine. That was not my intention. I was merely giving a background on the Noahide Laws, and area that I've crossed in my academic studies.

 

2) No, I'm not trying to play a game of who gets in to heaven. Instead, I'm actually looking closer at us Latter-day Saints. Which laws, revelations, and the such do we believe are only obligatory on us as a people?

 

3) This is a board which analyzes doctrine. So....why not analyze the applicability of it? I'm not talking about judgement, about what you personally have to do or not do to get into heaven. The point of this exercise is to get us beyond universalizing all of our scripture, laws, and prophecies.

 

For example, Valentinus raised a point in another thread that he contends that Latter-day Saint marriage doctrine is only authoritative for Latter-day Saints who have taken on those views and covenants. I want to discuss that point. Is the Family Proclamation relevant only for Latter-day Saints? The whole world? Is the Law of Chastity/Word of Wisdom/Tithing/Sabbath day something the only concerns members, or are they relevant for the whole world?

I understand

 

My aunt was a heavy smoker, she thought we were judging her a sinner because of it. I explained that I was under covenant to obey the Word of Wisdom she was not, so she was not sinning. Thankfully she did quit. 

[halconero]

 

Hmmm...

 

I would state fidelity in marriage.

A person should impact the world positively.

I don't consider myself LDS. I would consider that from an LDS perspective, laws that should be held for someone not LDS would be those laws that breaking the law impacts other people negatively.

I agree that the WoW would not apply.

 

My view of the Noahide laws from the article you referenced:

1. Do not deny God. 
2. Do not blaspheme God.
3. Do not murder.
4. Do not engage in incest, adultery, pederasty or bestiality, as well as homosexual relations. I do not understand the harm in these aside from adultery, pederasty and bestiality. Adultery impacts another human and bestiality cannot be stated as having the consent of the animal. Incest between adults, while disgusting to me, and homosexuality don't seem to have the impact if consensual.
5. Do not steal.
6. Do not eat of a live animal.
7. Establish courts/legal system to ensure law and obedience. I do not understand the need for a law to establish courts/legal systems. If everyone treated each other properly there would be no need for such. Is this just asking for an enforcement of the above laws?

 

 

I'll just address the last point. I'll come from a Jewish perspective, not from a Latter-day Saint one. Maimonides, who commented extensively on the Noahide laws, believed that the last one was generally just a measure to set up a civil society.

[Brian 2.0]

The Sabbath Day seems to be a stretch.  The idea of not working until you are burnt out or taking time to just relax and "sharpen the saw" so to speak are applicable, but that's really general advice.  And I defiantly see no need why it would need to be attached to a specific day of the week or with a set frequency of 1 in 7 days.

[filovirus]

Alma 12:32 -32 Therefore God gave unto them commandments, after having made known unto them the plan of redemption, that they should not do evil, the penalty thereof being a second death, which was an everlasting death as to things pertaining unto righteousness; for on such the plan of redemption could have no power, for the works of justice could not be destroyed, according to the supreme goodness of God.

People will be held accountable for their own light and knowledge of the Gospel of Christ. The scripture above shows that the Gospel is revealed first, and then commandments are given. How can we presume that the same commandments I am accountable for are the same for everyone. My light and knowledge about the Sabbath Day will even be different from the person I am sitting next to in Gospel Doctrine class.

[The Nehor]

Almost everything in the LDS faith is a command to the world. Tithing, Fast Offerings, Word of Wisdom, and every worthy Priesthood holder serving a mission are the only ones restricted to the Saints off the top of my head. There are probably more.

[JAHS]

Laws all people of the earth should live:

 

1.  Be honest

2.  Don't murder

3.  Don't steal

4.  Be nice. Do unto other as you would want them to do to you.

5.  Don't judge others by your own religious values. Allow them to live by their beleifs. 

6.  Live by the laws of your land

7. Work for a living

8. Don't mess up the planet

9. Love someone

10. Serve others

11. Be grateful

12  If you make a mess; clean it up

13. Don't take the last cookie

14. Don't leave the toilet seat up.

[The Nehor]

Laws all people of the earth should live:

 

1.  Be honest

2.  Don't murder

3.  Don't steal

4.  Be nice. Do unto other as you would want them to do to you.

5.  Don't judge others by your own religious values. Allow them to live by their beleifs. 

6.  Live by the laws of your land

7. Work for a living

8. Don't mess up the planet

9. Love someone

10. Serve others

11. Be grateful

12  If you make a mess; clean it up

13. Don't take the last cookie

14. Don't leave the toilet seat up.

 

You missed one:

 

"And you must preach unto the world, saying: You must repent and be baptized, in the name of Jesus Christ; For all men must repent and be baptized, and not only men, but women, and children who have arrived at the years of accountability." (D&C 18: 41-42)

 

The Noahide Laws are laws that the "righteous Gentile" must follow. In the LDS faith those without Law will be judged without Law.

[Russell C McGregor]

Hello. It is true that any one who follows the Noahide Laws is assured a place in the life to come.

However, their purpose is to determine who gets to live in the Holy Land. Child sacrificing Baal worshipping Canaanites get driven out or subjected to the Ban. Non-Jews who adhere to the NL's can stay because they will not defile the land spiritually.

So from that it would seem that Muslims living in Israel, who abide the precepts of their religion and don't engage in violent acts, are okay?

Here's my question: My understanding is that SOME LDS people (please correct me gently if i have misunderstood) believe in the literal establishment of Zion on the Am. continent. Now, inasmuch as not every one is Lds, will the non lds residents be expected to abide by certain "universal" laws whatever their faith??? For example, if chastity is a universal standard in lds belief and if certain ways of dressing are held by lds people to invite unchaste thoughts and acts, would an lds society require non lds to abide by a dress code...under the Noahide Laws we would.

It seems to me the only place this question of "universal laws would need to be adressed is iin the case of what would happen in a

th-o-odemocratic state.

I'm not sure it's something we've given a lot of thought towards. The Western Zion is looked upon as an eschatological community, even though it also harks back to an antediluvian community under the leadership of Enoch, in which the people were of one heart and one mind, dwelt in righteousness, and there was no poor among them.

As far as standards of modest dress are concerned, I'm not sure that's something we would look to legislate, but rather teach as a principle. Here (in New Zealand) there was a case not long ago where a group of Japanese students showed up at an LDS youth dance in their school uniforms. They'd been invited by a Mormon they'd met here. The girls' skirts were rather short, and some of the adult leaders wanted to send them away, as we would with our own local youth. However, when they considered that the girls didn't have anything else to change into, so refusing to let them in in their uniforms would mean not letting them in at all, it was decided to give them a pass.

They still had to keep to the other standards of behaviour (and substance consumption!) while at the dance. I hope they had a good experience there.

[PeterPear]

With Rabbinic Judaism there is a tradition of Seven Noahide Laws:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Laws_of_Noah

These were the commandments which God gave unto the "children of Noah," or all of humanity. Non-Jews who keep these laws are considered "righteous gentiles," and assured a place in the world to come.

 

In contrast, the Law of Moses is only considered obligatory on the covenant children of Israel, though many of them cannot be kept with the destruction of the temple:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_commandments

 

The point of this thread is to discuss what Latter-day Saints might consider our Noahide laws, or general commandments which God gives to all of his children currently on the earth. On the other hand, what laws might we consider to be only authoritative for Latter-day Saints, or "covenant-laws" as one might call it?

 

I'll start off: I do not consider the Word of Wisdom something obligatory for a non-Latter-day Saint. Were I to drink, smoke, etc it would be an abrogation of my covenants and prerequisites for entering the temple. On the other hand, my friend Nathan who enjoys a few beers on the weekends is not under the same obligations as I am.

 

In contrast, we might both be considered accountable for our honesty to our fellow humans, honesty being a principle generalized throughout humanity.

Everyone, that is all of God's children, again everyone, is assured a place in heaven (except the Sons of Perdition).

But it's which laws you obey that will determine which part of heaven you will be placed in.

D&C 130:20-21

20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—

21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

This clearly states this principle was decreed before this world was created.

Study D&C 76 https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/76?lang=eng

If you want to inherit the Celestial Kingdom, then obey the laws that pertain to receiving it.

If you want to inherit the Terrestial Kingdom, then obey the laws that pertain to receiving it.

If you want to inherit the Telestial Kingdom, the obey the laws that pertain to receiving it.

The Head of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which is Jesus Christ, through his Prophets and Apostles, the first in this Dispensation being Joseph Smith Jr., and through local Leaders such as Bishops, Missionaries and worthy priesthood holders, etc, is inviting you to obey the Celestial Laws. Thus the emphasis on being obedient to be worthy to enter into the Temples to covenant to obey the Celestial Laws.

The lower laws, I guess from your perspective, would be considered the Noahide Laws. Those who refuse, for whatever reason, to enter into the "Celestial" Covenants or after doing so, break that covenant through disobedience.

Those who refuse are not rejected as members of the LDS Church. One can be baptized and confirmed a member of the Church yet never enter into Temple Covenants, but they are not guaranteed an inheritance in the Celestial Kingdom (or in it's highest Kingdom). A member who breaks their Temple Covenants in regards to chastity, adultery specifically, will more than likely be excommunicated from the Church and will inherit a lesser kingdom if they do not repent.

Members are also expected to obey the laws of the land and if convicted of felonies or certain felonies, could have their membership stripped from them. Those who participate in abortion, child molestation, sexual deviancy , etc., are also candidates for excommunication. Young men or women who have children out of wedlock will never be able to serve as full time missionaries, even if they repent and are forgiven of the transgression.

Basically, the Celestial Laws is, don't be stupid.

[The Nehor]

Here's my question: My understanding is that SOME LDS people (please correct me gently if i have misunderstood) believe in the literal establishment of Zion on the Am. continent. Now, inasmuch as not every one is Lds, will the non lds residents be expected to abide by certain "universal" laws whatever their faith??? For example, if chastity is a universal standard in lds belief and if certain ways of dressing are held by lds people to invite unchaste thoughts and acts, would an lds society require non lds to abide by a dress code...under the Noahide Laws we would.

It seems to me the only place this question of "universal laws would need to be adressed is iin the case of what would happen in a

th-o-odemocratic state.

 

What democratic state? Zion is a monarchy with Jesus as king.

 

It will not be established generally until the king returns in person. I do not imagine that any non-LDS will belong to Zion until that day comes when every knee shall bow. I do not know what laws he will implement except that freedom of worship will still exist. Beyond that I have no idea. I do trust him to rule justly.

[Jacob]

What democratic state? Zion is a monarchy with Jesus as king.

 

It will not be established generally until the king returns in person. I do not imagine that any non-LDS will belong to Zion until that day comes when every knee shall bow. I do not know what laws he will implement except that freedom of worship will still exist. Beyond that I have no idea. I do trust him to rule justly.

I'm not so sure about this. Given how His first coming happened, if Christ comes again, He will probably have a number of followers in leadership who do not fit the general expectation. Also, it seems much of his following was not viewed very highly in Jewish circles. I doubt a majority, or perhaps not even a minority, of His self-stated "followers" will be in the group who support him before every knee bows. His followers will be those who live their lives properly and not necessarily those who are members of any specific denomination.