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What Is The Lds Reaction To The Miracles Of Fatima?


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The visions of Mary at Fatima are well documented and are accepted as "real" by the Catholic Church.

I wish I could post the entire article here to kick off the thread, but I won't. I will let you click the link yourself.

But these are well documented miracles and they also included prophecies which arguably have come to pass.

I have never seen much from the LDS community about this, other than the belief that somehow these must be "of Satan" and left unexplained.

My point of view is that frankly I have no problem accepting that they were from God, or alternatively that there is some kind of natural explanation. God teaches us all using the ways that work best to reach each of us, and perhaps this is what the Catholic Church needed to bring it closer to Christ. I make no pretense at knowing the answer, but I think many LDS are unaware that these events even happened, so I figured it was worth a thread. I really have already said about as much as I think I have to say on the topic- I was just wondering what others thought who perhaps did not know about these visions and miracles.

As early as July 1917 it was claimed that the Virgin Mary had promised a miracle for the last of her apparitions on October 13, so that all would believe. What happened then became known as the "Miracle of the Sun". A huge crowd, variously estimated between 30,000 and 100,000,%5B9%5D including newspaper reporters and photographers, gathered at the Cova da Iria. The incessant rain had ceased and there was a thin layer of cloud. Lúcia, seeing light rising from the lady's hands and the sun appearing as a silver disk, called out "look at the sun". She later had no memory of saying this.%5B6%5D Witnesses later spoke of the sun appearing to change colors and rotate like a wheel.%5B10%5D Witnesses gave widely varying descriptions of the "sun's dance". Poet Afonso Lopes Vieira and schoolteacher Delfina Lopes (with her students and other witnesses in the town of Alburita), reported that the solar phenomenon was visible up to forty kilometers away.%5B10%5D

Columnist Avelino de Almeida of O Século (Portugal's most influential newspaper, which was pro-government in policy and avowedly anti-clerical),%5B6%5D reported the following: "Before the astonished eyes of the crowd, whose aspect was biblical as they stood bare-headed, eagerly searching the sky, the sun trembled, made sudden incredible movements outside all cosmic laws - the sun 'danced' according to the typical expression of the people."%5B11%5D Eye specialist Dr. Domingos Pinto Coelho, writing for the newspaper Ordem reported "The sun, at one moment surrounded with scarlet flame, at another aureoled in yellow and deep purple, seemed to be in an exceeding fast and whirling movement, at times appearing to be loosened from the sky and to be approaching the earth, strongly radiating heat".%5B12%5D The special reporter for the October 17, 1917 edition of the Lisbon daily, O Dia, reported the following, "...the silver sun, enveloped in the same gauzy purple light was seen to whirl and turn in the circle of broken clouds...The light turned a beautiful blue, as if it had come through the stained-glass windows of a cathedral, and spread itself over the people who knelt with outstretched hands...people wept and prayed with uncovered heads, in the presence of a miracle they had awaited. The seconds seemed like hours, so vivid were they."%5B13%5D

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_Fátima

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This is a good topic.  i was actually discussing something similar from Islam.  Most muslims believe that Muhammad literally split the moon and that the moon will split again when the day of judgment approaches.  

 

While not a modern day example like Fatima.  It is a interesting parallel miracle to the parting of the red sea or the sun standing still. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splitting_of_the_moon

 

What is the LDS reaction to this story?

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LDS reaction to this often reminds me of the old joke of people in heaven tiptoeing past the door where the LDS are because "they think they're the only ones up here."

 

I also believe that miracles, prophecies, and gifts of the Spirit are given to many not of the LDS faith. God, as the BoM points out, is not a respecter of persons, and gives His love generously to all people. 

 

Among my friends who are of other faiths, there are experiences of miracles and visions. I don't believe these are Satanic experiences, because it is clear they are of God. 

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This is a good topic.  i was actually discussing something similar from Islam.  Most muslims believe that Muhammad literally split the moon and that the moon will split again when the day of judgment approaches.  

 

While not a modern day example like Fatima.  It is a interesting parallel miracle to the parting of the red sea or the sun standing still. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splitting_of_the_moon

 

What is the LDS reaction to this story?

Interesting, but it seems like it is the literalists vs the non-literalists which we see in all religions. It could be like an argument between Christian fundamentalists about the details of the Rapture.

I think Fatima is different, because it was so relatively recent, and we have so many eyewitness accounts of an actual event which has happened.

It seems that the sun-splitting could well be an ancient story as well as a "real event". But I think it is clear that something happened at Fatima, the question remains how we account for it, in my book.

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Here are a few general thoughts on this general topic:

 

1. I believe God can and does speak to people who adhere to other religious traditions.  After all, a person is probably better off living according to the precepts of Buddhism than, say ditching religion altogether.  That does not, however, mean that God’s communications to Buddhists are tantamount to spiritual confirmations that their church or belief system is the most correct one.  Additionally, Joseph Smith and several other prophets have spoken of how other religions have degrees of light and truth in them.  I believe many religions have large swaths of light and truth in them.  Individual adherents can therefore be justified in devoting themselves to such belief systems.  I even believe that individuals can be encouraged by the Spirit to devote themselves to such religious observances as an approximation of light and truth.

 

2. That said, I believe that the spiritual confirmation of exclusivistic truth claims described in scripture (Moroni 10:3-5 being the most concise) is not to be found outside the LDS Church. That is to say, I don’t think God “confirms” to a Buddhist the reality of reincarnation, karma, and the Four Noble Truths, while simultaneously “confirming” to his Christian neighbor that Jesus Christ is “the way, the truth, and the life.”  To the extent God speaks to those in other faith traditions, I do not believe he confirms the verity of incorrect notions and traditions.  I spent two years as a missionary in Taiwan.  I spoke with many hundreds of people, mostly Buddhists, Daoists, and atheists, but also no small number of Catholics and Protestants of various stripes.  Not a one of them ever spoke of praying to know if their religion in true, and of receiving a spiritual confirmation of it.  IIRC, Daniel Peterson, a professor of Islamic Studies at BYU, has indicated that no such inquiry is common in Islam.

 

3. If our belief system posits that Jesus Christ is “the way, the truth, and the life,” and that “no man cometh unto the Father, but by (him)” (John 14:6), that the LDS Church is “the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth” (D&C 1:30) that we have been commanded to “call upon all nations, first upon the Gentiles, and then upon the Jews” (D&C 133:8 ), then it is our place to preach to all of the children of God who are willing to listen.  The LDS Church has exclusivistic truth claims.  It claims to be more than merely one choice amongst a plethora of equally acceptable choices in the eyes of God.  It claims to be more than “first among equals.”  It claims to be the Church of Jesus Christ.

 

4. Nevertheless, I do not think that Latter-day Saints are called upon, as part of the Great Commission, to declare that "everyone else is mistaken or deceived." President Hinckley said: "We can respect other religions, and must do so. We must recognize the great good they accomplish. We must teach our children to be tolerant and friendly toward those not of our faith."  See also Smith, Joseph Fielding; Galbraith, Richard C., eds. (1993) [1938]. Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. p. 316. ("Have the Presbyterians any truth? Yes. Have the Baptists, Methodists, etc., any truth? Yes. They all have a little truth mixed with error. We should gather all the good and true principles in the world and treasure them up, or we shall not come out true 'Mormons'."); Palmer; Keller; Choi; Toronto (1997). Religions of the World: A Latter-day Saint View. Brigham Young University ("Mormons take an inclusivist position that their religion is correct and true but that other religions have genuine value").

 

5. Additionally, Robert L. Millet said the following: "Latter-day Saints believe that truth is to be found throughout the earth--among men and women in all walks of life, among sages and philosophers, and among people of differing religious persuasions. But they do claim that through the call of Joseph Smith and his successors, and through the establishment of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ has been restored to earth. They value the truths had among the children of God everywhere but believe that theirs is the 'only true church' in the sense that the same divine authority and the same doctrines of salvation had from the beginning are now to be found in their fullness in the LDS faith."  

 

In other words, the truth claims of the LDS Church posit nothing like a "We have 100% of the truth, and everyone else has 0% of it" type of reasoning.  The exclusivistic claims found in the Church's claims pertain to priesthood and spiritual gifts associated therewith.  A large number of unique concepts flow from this exclusivistic claim (prophetic authority, new scriptures, temple work, etc.), but there are many areas of commonality which we share with other faith traditions.

 

Thanks,

 

-Smac

Edited by smac97
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I very much doubt that many Mormons think enough about the Miracles of Fatima to even consider the question

You can similarly get odd looks when people talk about having had encounters with spirits, unless they are delivering genealogy promptings -- when you talk about ghosts, from my experience, most do not believe in them despite the fact that our doctrine clearly allows for them and many of our leaders have alluded to encounters.

C.S.Lewis once indicated that the reason we don't burn witches anymore is because we don't believe in them anymore, if we believed in them he said we would probably still be burning them. After reading that several times, I wondered whether things only exist if we believe in them. Kind of like Tinkerbell's potential fate in Peter Pan depending on whether you believe in fairies? I do believe in fairies, I do believe in fairies.

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This is a good topic.  i was actually discussing something similar from Islam.  Most muslims believe that Muhammad literally split the moon and that the moon will split again when the day of judgment approaches.  

 

While not a modern day example like Fatima.  It is a interesting parallel miracle to the parting of the red sea or the sun standing still. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splitting_of_the_moon

 

What is the LDS reaction to this story?

 

Interesting...

Alpheus Cutler claimed that the sign telling him to reorganize the church was two crescent moons with the back's to each other.

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One of my missionary companion's father was a devout Catholic when he converted. In his prayer he told the LORD that he would only join if the Virgin Mary told him the Book of Mormon was true. She appeared to him that night and he was baptized.

Link to post

Here are a few general thoughts on this general topic:

 

1. I believe God can and does speak to people who adhere to other religious traditions.  After all, a person is probably better off living according to the precepts of Buddhism than, say ditching religion altogether.  That does not, however, mean that God’s communications to Buddhists are tantamount to spiritual confirmations that their church or belief system is the most correct one.  Additionally, Joseph Smith and several other prophets have spoken of how other religions have degrees of light and truth in them.  I believe many religions have large swaths of light and truth in them.  Individual adherents can therefore be justified in devoting themselves to such belief systems.  I even believe that individuals can be encouraged by the Spirit to devote themselves to such religious observances as an approximate such light and truth.

 

2. That said, I believe that the spiritual confirmation of exclusivistic truth claims described in scripture (Moroni 10:3-5 being the most concise) is not to be found outside the LDS Church. That is to say, I don’t think God “confirms” to a Buddhist the reality of reincarnation, karma, and the Four Noble Truths, while simultaneously “confirming” to his Christian neighbor that Jesus Christ is “the way, the truth, and the life.”  To the extent God speaks to those in other faith traditions, I do not believe he confirms the verity of incorrect notions and traditions.  I spent two years as a missionary in Taiwan.  I spoke with many hundreds of people, mostly Buddhists, Daoists, and atheists, but also no small number of Catholics and Protestants of various stripes.  Not a one of them ever spoke of praying to know if their religion in true, and of receiving a spiritual confirmation of it.  IIRC, Daniel Peterson, a professor of Islamic Studies at BYU, has indicated that no such inquiry is common in Islam.

 

3. If our belief system posits that Jesus Christ is “the way, the truth, and the life,” and that “no man cometh unto the Father, but by (him)” (John 14:6), that the LDS Church is “the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth” (D&C 1:30) that we have been commanded to “call upon all nations, first upon the Gentiles, and then upon the Jews” (D&C 133:8 ), then it is our place to preach to all of the children of God who are willing to listen.  The LDS Church has exclusivistic truth claims.  It claims to be more than merely one choice amongst a plethora of equally acceptable choices in the eyes of God.  It claims to be more than “first among equals.”  It claims to be the Church of Jesus Christ.

 

4. Nevertheless, I do not think that Latter-day Saints are called upon, as part of the Great Commission, to declare that "everyone else is mistaken or deceived." President Hinckley said: "We can respect other religions, and must do so. We must recognize the great good they accomplish. We must teach our children to be tolerant and friendly toward those not of our faith."  See also Smith, Joseph Fielding; Galbraith, Richard C., eds. (1993) [1938]. Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. p. 316. ("Have the Presbyterians any truth? Yes. Have the Baptists, Methodists, etc., any truth? Yes. They all have a little truth mixed with error. We should gather all the good and true principles in the world and treasure them up, or we shall not come out true 'Mormons'."); Palmer; Keller; Choi; Toronto (1997). Religions of the World: A Latter-day Saint View. Brigham Young University ("Mormons take an inclusivist position that their religion is correct and true but that other religions have genuine value").

 

5. Additionally, Robert L. Millet said the following: "Latter-day Saints believe that truth is to be found throughout the earth--among men and women in all walks of life, among sages and philosophers, and among people of differing religious persuasions. But they do claim that through the call of Joseph Smith and his successors, and through the establishment of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ has been restored to earth. They value the truths had among the children of God everywhere but believe that theirs is the 'only true church' in the sense that the same divine authority and the same doctrines of salvation had from the beginning are now to be found in their fullness in the LDS faith."  

 

In other words, the truth claims of the LDS Church posit nothing like a "We have 100% of the truth, and everyone else has 0% of it" type of reasoning.  The exclusivistic claims found in the Church's claims pertain to priesthood and spiritual gifts associated therewith.  A large number of unique concepts flow from this exclusivistic claim (prophetic authority, new scriptures, temple work, etc.), but there are many areas of commonality which we share with other faith traditions.

 

Thanks,

 

-Smac

Yeah, I think I'm pretty much with you on this one.

We LDS tend to be highly practical people, and Catholics in general I think tend more toward the mystical and like "mysteries" even though they have thousands of pages of theology, the final answer is that it is a "mystery".

On the other hand, LDS tend away from systematic theology but everyone wants some anyway. Maybe God gives us all what we need to move closer to Christ, but I still and always will affirm that there is no better paradigm that I can even conceive than the LDS one.

Our insistence on personal revelation I think is the key- on the other hand Catholics like authority and tradition. We are individualists, and they tend more perhaps toward the traditional and perhaps this gave them more of what they needed as a people to move ahead. I really can't pretend to know

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One of my missionary companion's father was a devout Catholic when he converted. In his prayer he told the LORD that he would only join if the Virgin Mary told him the Book of Mormon was true. She appeared to him that night and he was baptized.

Wow!

You should read Margaret Barker's talk at the 2015 Fairmormon conference when it comes out. After that talk, I would never say that this story is "wrong". It is clear to me that we have a Heavenly Mother who might well reveal herself and I am not about to tell anyone that the name they think she uses is right or wrong. There is so much we need further revelation about.

Edited by mfbukowski
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Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit

Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. (Matt 7: 17-20)

 

If the "miracles" bring forth good fruit, who am I to say they are not from God?

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But not by the LDS church 

 

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Fátima

I really don't want to get into this particularly. That is not an LDS site and I am done discussing what you think is "rational" since for you it seems that includes science and nothing but.

Show me any reason you have to believe that Joseph saw God on that same basis using the same criteria. You cannot. There are many ways to understand why dreams and visions are "rational" but you accept none of them, so you are left with science and trying to reconcile everything with science which is impossible.

So my advice is pick a theory and stick with it as long as you can until God leads you another way. I am confident you will do that eventually.

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I suppose I could just look it up, but so as to provide proper perspective as we discuss this subject it would be a good thing if someone here could provide a synopsis of the massages of the Fatima visions. The "message" from God communicated to man through these Portuguese children is of much greater importance than any supposed miraculous phenomena that may have accompanied the revelations. One outstanding element of the Fatima visions that will cause knowledgeable Latter-day Saints to take notice is why were the revelations given to children instead of to the leader the Church. If such a thing happened in the LDS Church, such a break with the established principles of revelatory protocol (that revelation for the entire Church is given to and issues forth fro the President of the Church) would automatically make such "revelations" null and void.

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The visions of Mary at Fatima are well documented and are accepted as "real" by the Catholic Church.

I wish I could post the entire article here to kick off the thread, but I won't. I will let you click the link yourself.

But these are well documented miracles and they also included prophecies which arguably have come to pass.

I have never seen much from the LDS community about this, other than the belief that somehow these must be "of Satan" and left unexplained.

My point of view is that frankly I have no problem accepting that they were from God, or alternatively that there is some kind of natural explanation. God teaches us all using the ways that work best to reach each of us, and perhaps this is what the Catholic Church needed to bring it closer to Christ. I make no pretense at knowing the answer, but I think many LDS are unaware that these events even happened, so I figured it was worth a thread. I really have already said about as much as I think I have to say on the topic- I was just wondering what others thought who perhaps did not know about these visions and miracles.

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_Fátima

 

 I have referenced these events before, Mark. I think...if God had not been so good in His mercy as to send our Lady to tell of all the horrible things that would happen in the Church...that the popes would not obey the message...I could not be Catholic now in these so discouraging times for Catholics like me. It is not the miracles, but the message of Fatima...the prophecies of the popes disobeying and seeing before my eyes the prophesied "diabolical disorientation" in the Church, that keeps me thinking I should follow a public revelation less than a hundred years old. What will Pope Francis celebrate in 2017? One hundred years since Fatima? I don't think so. More likely five hundred years since Luther. God have mercy. Sister Lucia said that the popes would delay their obedience. But in the end..."my Immaculate Heart shall triumph", said the Beautiful Lady, Our Lady of Fatima. God give me more faith.

 

Thanks for bringing this up, Mark, my sometimes adversary and always friend,

 

Rory 

 

PS: Maybe, to be brutally honest, I should have said it the other way round. But anyway...I thank you for bringing this up. 

Edited by 3DOP
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Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit

Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. (Matt 7: 17-20)

 

If the "miracles" bring forth good fruit, who am I to say they are not from God?

My attitude.

Link to post

2. That said, I believe that the spiritual confirmation of exclusivistic truth claims described in scripture (Moroni 10:3-5 being the most concise) is not to be found outside the LDS Church. That is to say, I don’t think God “confirms” to a Buddhist the reality of reincarnation, karma, and the Four Noble Truths, while simultaneously “confirming” to his Christian neighbor that Jesus Christ is “the way, the truth, and the life.”  To the extent God speaks to those in other faith traditions, I do not believe he confirms the verity of incorrect notions and traditions.  I spent two years as a missionary in Taiwan.  I spoke with many hundreds of people, mostly Buddhists, Daoists, and atheists, but also no small number of Catholics and Protestants of various stripes.  Not a one of them ever spoke of praying to know if their religion in true, and of receiving a spiritual confirmation of it.  IIRC, Daniel Peterson, a professor of Islamic Studies at BYU, has indicated that no such inquiry is common in Islam.

 

 

You might need to talk to more people then.  

 

I always question statements like this.  Other religious people don't pray to know if their religion is true?  Hogwash.

 

Plenty of off-shots of the church do this EXACT method, and say they received the same feeling:

https://youtu.be/ycUvC9s4VYA?t=1m46s

 

And here's some from the Islamic faith asking specially and getting exclusive answers:

https://youtu.be/ycUvC9s4VYA?t=6m6s

https://youtu.be/ycUvC9s4VYA?t=7m37s

 

And here's the process for a followers of a self-professed Messiah:

https://youtu.be/ycUvC9s4VYA?t=8m44s

 

And there's the Heaven's Gate tragedy and their process:

https://youtu.be/ycUvC9s4VYA?t=11m27s

 

Of course it happens.  You can discount that their experiences as invalid, from another source, whatever... but OF COURSE there are people in other religions who have prayed to know if there religion is true and have received an answer... and some of them that their religion is the ONLY way to God.

 

 

*NOTE:  all these videos are pulled from the same video that's a bit long.  It's good and worth watching... if you can get past the really annoying overly sincere narration.

Edited by Brian 2.0
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I have referenced these events before, Mark. I think...if God had not been so good in His mercy as to send our Lady to tell of all the horrible things that would happen in the Church...that the popes would not obey the message...I could not be Catholic now in these so discouraging times for Catholics like me. It is not the miracles, but the message of Fatima...the prophecies of the popes disobeying and seeing before my eyes the prophesied "diabolical disorientation" in the Church, that keeps me thinking I should follow a public revelation less than a hundred years old. What will Pope Francis celebrate in 2017? One hundred years since Fatima? I don't think so. More likely five hundred years since Luther. God have mercy. Sister Lucia said that the popes would delay their obedience. But in the end..."my Immaculate Heart shall triumph", said the Beautiful Lady, Our Lady of Fatima. God give me more faith.

 

Thanks for bringing this up, Mark, my sometimes adversary and always friend,

 

Rory 

 

PS: Maybe, to be brutally honest, I should have said it the other way round. But anyway...I thank you for bringing this up.

Rory, I have never been your advesary, but I think our cultural vocabularies don't mix well. Scholastics and postmodernists are from different planets. I would still love to attend a mass with you when you get in the area
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I have many thoughts on this and hope not to derail the thread, but I have so many emotions going into this discussion. The reason I do is because at the heart of this discussion is the question of how God speaks to us. My opinion of Fatima is that it definitely is well documented and cannot be easily brushed off. Furthermore many of the prophecies were certainly accurate. What I can't make sense of is what to make of it, as some aspects of it, namely the children's vision of hell, are foreign to LDS theology.

I guess a challenge I'm having more and more is squaring Away the infinitely diverse spiritual experiences people claim that all involve serious soul searching and sincerity but result in wildly different answers. I had one of the most awful experiences of my life several years ago when I read some Mormon to Evangelical testimonies where they claimed God told them that Mormonism was false (and satanic). I read one that even claimed a minister exorcised "Mormon demons" out of them and found Christ. Now of course these were all on the Internet, so I can't know for sure how accurate or true they are.

This led me to more deeply study the spiritual experiences of those that joined the church, and what I found is that they had often sincerely and deeply prayed for help, and would often receive dreams or instant visits from the missionaries. For example Newell Whitney and his wife prayed to receive the Holy Ghost one evening and were given a vision that their desires would be fulfilled soon. They then met Joseph Smith shortly thereafter. Then there was David John, a Welsh convert who was unsure if he should join the church and received a dream that he should. He even prayed after the dream to make sure it was from God, and claimed to receive the same answer.

I share these things because I struggle with knowing exactly how God speaks to us. I recently chastised an Evangelical board member here who put forth the accusation that the first vision was an actual event but was satanic rather then divine. If it was satanic, and God allowed satan to deceive Joseph, what does that say about God's desire to save us? Does God allow innocent seeking people to be deceived, even if they desire him? What got me through the aforementioned faith crisis was a strong experience with scripture where the words of Jesus regarding prayer came strongly to my mind, where he talks about a father knowing how to give good gift. The idea that God will give us if we ask has become a strong principle I refuse to back down from.

However as I said before, many have asked and received all kinds of different responses, which is where my hang ups still lie. In regards to Fatima, I hesitate to say it was false as I struggle with the idea if God allowing children to be deceived, and cautiously accept that something happened.

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I have many thoughts on this and hope not to derail the thread, but I have so many emotions going into this discussion. The reason I do is because at the heart of this discussion is the question of how God speaks to us. My opinion of Fatima is that it definitely is well documented and cannot be easily brushed off. Furthermore many of the prophecies were certainly accurate. What I can't make sense of is what to make of it, as some aspects of it, namely the children's vision of hell, are foreign to LDS theology.

I guess a challenge I'm having more and more is squaring Away the infinitely diverse spiritual experiences people claim that all involve serious soul searching and sincerity but result in wildly different answers. I had one of the most awful experiences of my life several years ago when I read some Mormon to Evangelical testimonies where they claimed God told them that Mormonism was false (and satanic). I read one that even claimed a minister exorcised "Mormon demons" out of them and found Christ. Now of course these were all on the Internet, so I can't know for sure how accurate or true they are.

This led me to more deeply study the spiritual experiences of those that joined the church, and what I found is that they had often sincerely and deeply prayed for help, and would often receive dreams or instant visits from the missionaries. For example Newell Whitney and his wife prayed to receive the Holy Ghost one evening and were given a vision that their desires would be fulfilled soon. They then met Joseph Smith shortly thereafter. Then there was David John, a Welsh convert who was unsure if he should join the church and received a dream that he should. He even prayed after the dream to make sure it was from God, and claimed to receive the same answer.

I share these things because I struggle with knowing exactly how God speaks to us. I recently chastised an Evangelical board member here who put forth the accusation that the first vision was an actual event but was satanic rather then divine. If it was satanic, and God allowed satan to deceive Joseph, what does that say about God's desire to save us? Does God allow innocent seeking people to be deceived, even if they desire him? What got me through the aforementioned faith crisis was a strong experience with scripture where the words of Jesus regarding prayer came strongly to my mind, where he talks about a father knowing how to give good gift. The idea that God will give us if we ask has become a strong principle I refuse to back down from.

However as I said before, many have asked and received all kinds of different responses, which is where my hang ups still lie. In regards to Fatima, I hesitate to say it was false as I struggle with the idea if God allowing children to be deceived, and cautiously accept that something happened.

Thanks for your reply

 

I think the answer is that God teaches each of us what we need to learn.  If one is a drunk on skid row, I am certain that God might give one a testimony of the Salvation army or any other group which could bring him closer to Christ.

 

That is an extreme example, to make the point, but perhaps others need to be Evangelicals for a while to find Christ and then move toward more truth.  I am firmly convinced that all roads lead to Rome as it were- but in this case Salt Lake.  there is truth in many churches but I am sure that we are the best explanation of God and how to return to Him.

 

If we think of the gospel as a mountain we are all climbing we have to find the best path to the top to fit our abilities, but eventually all paths lead to the peak as long as we are doing our very best in continuing to move upward.

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Please forgive the biography by the way....

Nothing to forgive!

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Well I'm glad I didn't distract too much. I hope we can keep this conversation going. I'm realizing more and more that while in some ways Knowing God can be simple, such as having a testimony of his goodness, our relationship to him and how he sometimes interacts with us can be very complicated. I'm currently reading the book of Psalms somewhat intensely, and am realizing this

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      Visions, Mushrooms, Fungi, Cacti, and Toads: Joseph Smith’s Reported Use of Entheogens
       
    • By AtheistGuy
      I’m not here to argue with anyone or change anyone’s mind. I’m just curious what compels you guys to believe the Book of Mormon and teachings of Joseph Smith? A lot of what of what I know about Mormonism comes from sources that have an anti-Mormon bias, and I want to see y’all’s perspective on the LDS church.
    • By Metis_LDS
      I ask for forgiveness in advance.  I am more interested in the reaction really.  If you have seen what I have written some times you will know I do not hold back about experiences.   I state most correctly and honestly that I have never seen with my eyes or otherwise anything related to the Lord or the Lord himself                                                                                                                                  SO is talking about visions socially unacceptable.  If someone says well I feel it is sacred or the Spirit tells me not to speak about it, I accept that.  Otherwise why hold back???
    • By nuclearfuels
      Looking for some insight into Alma 29:3 -
      But behold, I am a man, and do sin in my wish; for I ought to be content with the things which the Lord hath allotted unto me.
      Seems like if Alma's faith grew he would naturally pray for not only his people but the Lamanites, and then others (people in Jerusalem and Middle East, Lost Tribes, etc.).
      But then he chides himself for wanting to do that.
      What's the problem here?
      Should he trust God to have called Prophets to cry repentance to all those other people so Alma should just "stay in his lane?"
      When you pray and you're really feeling the Spirit, what would be incorrect about praying for your family, ward, stake, the whole church, the whole world - to be blessed with health, prosperity, a greater acceptance of the restored gospel?
      I guess we should focus on the jurisdiction of our own callings but honestly I pray for things I'm quite sure God laughs out loud at, not to mention when I pray for others outside of my stake, church, etc.
       
    • By Calm
      https://www.uvu.edu/religiousstudies/heavenandearth/


      Heaven & Earth
      Mormonism and the Challenges of Science, Revelation and Faith
      February 22nd - 23rd, 2018
      Classroom Building, Room 511
      Utah Valley University

      click here for a pdf version of the program 
       
      Description
      The relationship between science and religion has been among the most fiercely debated issues since the Copernican revolution displaced traditional wisdom regarding the nature of the cosmos. Some have argued  for a sharp division of labor while others have sought to harmonize spiritual and empirical truths. From its beginnings, Mormonism has wrestled with the implications of modern science and has produced a variety of  theological responses. This conference will explore the landscape of Mormon thought as it relates to the relationships between science, theology, scriptural narratives, and LDS authoritative discourse. It will also examine abiding questions of faith, reason, and doubt and the reactions against the intellectualizing forces that bear on the truth claims of Mormonism.  
        Keynote Speaker
      Molly Worthen
      Assistant Professor of History
      University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
      author of Apostles of Reason: The Crisis of Authority in American Evangelicalism Eugene England Lecture
      Steven L. Peck
      Associate Professor of Biology
      Brigham Young University
      author of Science the Key to Theology Conference Participants
      Philip L. Barlow
      Leonard J. Arrington Chair in Mormon Studies & Culture
      Utah State University
      author of Mormons and the Bible: The Place of Latter-day Saints in American Religion
        Brian D. Birch 
      Brian D. Birch, Director, Religious Studies Program
      Utah Valley University
      series co-editor, Perspectives on Mormon Theology
        David Bokovoy
      Online Professor of Bible and Jewish Studies
      Utah State University
      author of Reading the Old Testament: Genesis - Deuteronomy 
        Matthew Bowman
      Matthew Bowman, Assistant Professor of Philosophy
      Henderson State University
      author of The Mormon People: The Making of an American Faith
        Deidre Nicole Green
      Postdoctoral Fellow
      Neal A. Maxwell Institute for Religious Scholarship
      author of "Becoming Equal Partners: Latter-day Saint Women as Theologians” 
        Jamie L. Jensen
      Associate Professor of Biology, Brigham Young University, author of “Influencing highly religious undergraduate perceptions of evolution:  Mormons as a case study” 
        Boyd Jay Petersen
      Program Coordinator for Mormon Studies
      Utah Valley University
      author of “One Soul Shall Not Be Lost': The War in Heaven in Mormon Thought" 
        Jana K. Riess
      Senior Columnist
      Religion News Service
      author of The Next Mormons
        David W. Scott
      Professor of Communication
      Utah Valley University
      author of “Dinosaurs on Noah’s Ark?"  
      Ben Spackman
      History of Christianity & Religions of North America Program
      Claremont Graduate University
      author of “Truth, Scripture, and Interpretation: Some Precursors to Reading Genesis”  
      Co-Sponsors & Partners
      Religious Studies Program, Utah Valley University College of Humanities & Social Sciences, Utah Valley University
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