The Nature And Relationship Of God And Creation

[stephenpurdy]

NOFEAR:  You want to say nothing influences our free will, albeit no competent observer will say so. Set that aside for a moment and ask did God know what Adam would do? Did he know how Adam would exercise his free will? And if so, why not simply roll the dice again as it were until he made somebody who would use their free will the right way (irrespective of influences - a moot matter ultimately)? Or, did God not know beforehand how Adam would exercise his free will to bring ruination down on his perfect creation?

Great point.  I will have to steal it sometime. 

 

Either God didn't know, or he allowed it to happen.

 

The "dice" example is from my "supplement" video.

 

If you are familiar with mathematics and "number sets" we can say that you have a six sided cube.  Each role will obviously be a number between 1 and 6.  Let's say you have a cube that rolls

 

A)  1, 5, 3, 1, 3, 1,

 

and another cube that rolls

 

B)  2, 1, 4, 5, 4, 2,

 

Those are two "possible" cubes that could exist. 

 

What if even rolls represent "good" decisions and odd rolls represent "bad" decisions?  God knows what is going to happen before he even creates a cube "out of nothing" ... so would God rather create cube A above, or cube B above?

 

It gets worse....

Question:  Is there a "possible" cube that will randomly roll 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6?    How about randomly rolling 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2 ?

 

.... chew on that for a bit.

 

- -  - - - -  - - - - - -  - - - - - - - - - -  - - - - - - - -  - - - - - - - -

 

Now, at this point people say ... "well, free will isn't the same as random rolls of the dice".  I agree. 

 

That is where I move into the second part of my argument....

 

That is why I want Daniel to respond to this statement by Hausam,

 

"...the choices we make are the results of the motivations, desires, loves, values, priorities, beliefs, etc., that constitute who we are, that make up the real essence of our actual being. That is why our choices reveal who we are. If our choices were not produced from the essence of our being, they would not be our choices fundamentally and would not reveal anything about who we are."

 

The second half of my supplement video takes this into consideration.   For example, certain elements like helium or gold, or mercury "behave" a certain way based on what they are made of.  They may have random electrons in a cloud, but they still have predictable behaviors based on their characteristics (the make up of those atoms).  You can tell what an element is made of if you analyze its characteristics.

 

-Stephen

[danielwoods]

That is why I want Daniel to respond to this statement by Hausam,

 

"...the choices we make are the results of the motivations, desires, loves, values, priorities, beliefs, etc., that constitute who we are, that make up the real essence of our actual being. That is why our choices reveal who we are. If our choices were not produced from the essence of our being, they would not be our choices fundamentally and would not reveal anything about who we are."

 

The second half of my supplement video takes this into consideration.   For example, certain elements like helium or gold, or mercury "behave" a certain way based on what they are made of.  They may have random electrons in a cloud, but they still have predictable behaviors based on their characteristics (the make up of those atoms).  You can tell what an element is made of if you analyze its characteristics.

 

-Stephen

 

Your (and his) argument is that our "being" is created by God therefore those choices that come from our being are determined by God (if Ex Nihilo is true). Therefore, you conclude that God couldn't have created a moral free agent from nothing. 

 

The assumption (which I disagree with) contained in this argument is that God cannot create a moral free will. As I have argued countless times already, God has stated that he created us in his image, which contains this very element. 

 

What is missing so far is an explanation as to why? What is it that stops God from creating us with moral free agency? What stops him from creating us in his image as he claimed? 

[Nofear]

I have yet to get the creatio ex nihilo advocates to put forth a response on the LDS position. I really don't care all that much that the creatio ex nihilo advocates insist that free will is consistent (I have yet to be persuaded it is beyond a magical free will = real 'cuz God type response).

 

Rather, I would like them to consider for the sake of argument the LDS position that denies creatio ex nihilo. In that "hypothetical" example, is the notion of free will/moral agency possible and logically coherent?

[danielwoods]

I have yet to get the creatio ex nihilo advocates to put forth a response on the LDS position. I really don't care all that much that the creatio ex nihilo advocates insist that free will is consistent (I have yet to be persuaded it is beyond a magical free will = real 'cuz God type response).

 

Rather, I would like them to consider for the sake of argument the LDS position that denies creatio ex nihilo. In that "hypothetical" example, is the notion of free will/moral agency possible and logically coherent?

 

Why wouldn't it be logically coherent? 

 

The LDS position is that something existed (intelligences, matter) and that God "organized" it into what we have today. 

 

Is it possible that this is the scenario that occurred? I don't think that's the right question, at least for me. There are many possibilities but only one truth.

 

What is the truth? What actually happened? What is the nature of God and the universe he created? 

 

William L. Craig deals directly with the LDS viewpoint in this article.

http://www.reasonablefaith.org/creatio-ex-nihilo-a-critique-of-the-mormon-doctrine-of-creation

[Nofear]

Didn't answer the requested question. It's ok. You don't have to if it makes you uncomfortable or simply don't feel like it.

 

 

Why wouldn't it be logically coherent?

 

[danielwoods]

Didn't answer the requested question. It's ok. You don't have to if it makes you uncomfortable or simply don't feel like it.

 

 

 

Please restate the question because as near as I can tell I addressed both questions. Logical coherence and whether the LDS position is possible...

Edited June 25, 2015 by danielwoods

[Robert F. Smith]

 

So you can't explain how it's a logical contradiction. I guess it isn't then. 

 

As far as your reference to Stephen Hawking, you aren't serious are you? He doesn't even believe God exists, so he's not even a credible reference for a theological discussion. 

 ..........................................................................................................

Most people learn basic logic in high school geometry class.  Others get it in college classes on critical thinking, logic, and philosophy.   No mathematician, physcist or chemist can function without mastery of logic.  Hawking, who is a profound thinker in physics and math, has likely found that normative Christian dogma is not logical and therefore rejects it.  For many that is the source of their rejection of religion in general -- even though some religions, such as the LDS faith, are quite logical.  However, Hawking  is not likely to want to waste time doing a survey of religions.  He doesn't believe in God because the god offered to him by mainstream religion is illogical and self-contradictory.

 

A good, short primer on logic is A. J. Ayer, Language, Truth, and Logic (1936), which is available online at https://ia802605.us.archive.org/10/items/AlfredAyer/LanguageTruthAndLogic.pdf or at  http://s-f-walker.org.uk/pubsebooks/pdfs/ayerLTL.pdf .  Another good way to be introduced to the subject is to take a course on critical thinking at a local college.

[Robert F. Smith]

The claim is made that God is limited (with respect to creating a moral free agent). I'm simply asking for evidence of this claim. If none can be provided, then why believe it? 

Do you believe that God is limited in any way?  For example, do you believe (with the LDS faith) that God is limited, that He is part of time and space, and that He was once a man like us?  Then, of course, free will is possible -- because humans (who are of the same basic nature as God) are considered to be coeternal with God.  Only thus is free choice possible.

 

If you believe that God is the only uncreated being, then you cannot logically have any other uncreated beings; moreover, any beings which are created are fully contingent on that God; that means that they have no free will (Presbyterians at least admit that God is fully sovereign and that salvation is not a matter of human choice, because God decides who is predestined to be saved).  These logical issues have been fully discussed in philosophical and theological works for over a century.  If you need some recommendations for reading, just let me know.

[Ahab]

If you believe that God is the only uncreated being, then you cannot logically have any other uncreated beings; moreover, any beings which are created are fully contingent on that God; that means that they have no free will

"that means they have no free will" in the sense that they can't do anything without their God's help; they can't make their own choices wholly independent from their God; they can't do anything good without their God helping them to do good AND they also can't do anything evil without their God helping them to do evil - because they can't do anything or even "will" to do anything while being wholly independent or "free" from their God or his influence. Their will is God's will if they have no free will of their own.

But if they do have free will and they got it from God then their free will is exactly what God gave to them when he gave them free will. If their will is to do good it is because gave them the free (as in independent) will to do good on their own without needing God to help them to do good in each and every instance, other than to sustain and honor their free will which he had already given to them.

We LDS do believe God gave us our free will, just not from out of nothing. Our God gave it to us, so it came from God, rather than nothing.

[Robert F. Smith]

.......................................................................

But if they do have free will and they got it from God then their free will is exactly what God gave to them when he gave them free will. If their will is to do good it is because gave them the free (as in independent) will to do good on their own without needing God to help them to do good in each and every instance, other than to sustain and honor their free will which he had already given to them.

We LDS do believe God gave us our free will, just not from out of nothing. Our God gave it to us, so it came from God, rather than nothing.

God does not give us free will, we have it by right.

LDS theology posits free will as based on our coeternality with God.  We are not fully contingent upon him.  Like human children depend on their human parents for much that they need, and can never really repay their parents, so we are indebted to God.  But our spark of being, our "intelligence" (not IQ) is pre-existent and coeternal with God, which gives us our individuality and right to free will.  There is no other way.

[The Nehor]

God does not give us free will, we have it by right.

LDS theology posits free will as based on our coeternality with God.  We are not fully contingent upon him.  Like human children depend on their human parents for much that they need, and can never really repay their parents, so we are indebted to God.  But our spark of being, our "intelligence" (not IQ) is pre-existent and coeternal with God, which gives us our individuality and right to free will.  There is no other way.

The scriptures the prophets, and the church website disagree. They even include God in the first person saying he gave us agency.

[Ahab]

God does not give us free will, we have it by right.

LDS theology posits free will as based on our coeternality with God. We are not fully contingent upon him. Like human children depend on their human parents for much that they need, and can never really repay their parents, so we are indebted to God. But our spark of being, our "intelligence" (not IQ) is pre-existent and coeternal with God, which gives us our individuality and right to free will. There is no other way.

I don't think I'll ever understand why an intelligent person would ever say he was once pre-existent. Who knows, maybe someday I will understand, but now it just sounds very strange and just wrong. If you mean pre-mortal then yes we had free will before we were mortal, even before we were born as independent spirits of our Father(s) in heaven. But we still got it from him, or them, by virtue of the kind of being we and they are and always have been.

[stephenpurdy]

 

The assumption (which I disagree with) contained in this argument is that God cannot create a moral free will. As I have argued countless times already, God has stated that he created us in his image, which contains this very element. 

 

The "assumption" is that God cannot cause an uncaused cause.  That is obvious.

 

All you have argued is that "God said that he created us in his image, therefore we have free will."   Yes, we know that God created us in His image.  Yes, we know that we have free will.  However, that does not prove that God creates ex nihilo, nor does it demonstrate that God could create free will "out of nothing."

 

Daniel wrote:   What is missing so far is an explanation as to why? What is it that stops God from creating us with moral free agency? What stops him from creating us in his image as he claimed?

 

Nothing stops God from creating us in His image.  God DID create us in His image ... but not "from nothing".  Again, claiming that God creates beings of free will ex nihilo is equivalent to saying that , "God causes uncaused causes".  You cannot make any sense of this logical contradiction.

 

"...the choices we make are the results of the motivations, desires, loves, values, priorities, beliefs, etc., that constitute who we are, that make up the real essence of our actual being. That is why our choices reveal who we are. If our choices were not produced from the essence of our being, they would not be our choices fundamentally and would not reveal anything about who we are." - M. Hausam

 

You refuse to address Hausam's statement specifically, and this is understandable, because you cannot escape the ex nihilo conundrum. 

 

IF God created every single aspect of our essence/being from God's own mind, and our very nature is the result of God's creation "from nothing" , then our motives, desires, loves, values, priorities, beliefs, etc. are the result of this creation. 

 

To argue against that, would mean to say that "our choices were not produced from the essence of our being, and they would not be our choices fundamentally..."  (And it would be like the dice I described in the first half of my supplement video, which are practically random).

 

As the video illustrates clearly, Daniel, either way Ex Nihilo fails to allow for true free agency.

 

-Stephen

 

Edited June 26, 2015 by stephenpurdy

[stephenpurdy]

Why wouldn't it be logically coherent? 

 

The LDS position is that something existed (intelligences, matter) and that God "organized" it into what we have today. 

 

Is it possible that this is the scenario that occurred? I don't think that's the right question, at least for me. There are many possibilities but only one truth.

 

What is the truth? What actually happened? What is the nature of God and the universe he created? 

 

William L. Craig deals directly with the LDS viewpoint in this article.

http://www.reasonablefaith.org/creatio-ex-nihilo-a-critique-of-the-mormon-doctrine-of-creation

And here is a response via Blake Ostler

 

http://www.fairmormon.org/perspectives/publications/reviews-of-the-new-mormon-challenge/the-doctrine-of-creation-ex-nihilo-do-kalam-infinity-arguments-apply-to-the-infinite-past

 

 

This was a debate that Ostler won handily.  Here is the full response:

 

http://www.fairmormon.org/perspectives/publications/reviews-of-the-new-mormon-challenge

 

 

 

-Stephen

Edited June 26, 2015 by stephenpurdy

[stephenpurdy]

I have yet to get the creatio ex nihilo advocates to put forth a response on the LDS position. I really don't care all that much that the creatio ex nihilo advocates insist that free will is consistent (I have yet to be persuaded it is beyond a magical free will = real 'cuz God type response).

 

Rather, I would like them to consider for the sake of argument the LDS position that denies creatio ex nihilo. In that "hypothetical" example, is the notion of free will/moral agency possible and logically coherent?

 

 

Whenever they try to challenge me on it, I simply ask ....

 

"Well, Do you believe that God has free will?"

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Ahab wrote:  I don't think I'll ever understand why an intelligent person would ever say he was once pre-existent. Who knows, maybe someday I will understand, but now it just sounds very strange and just wrong.

 

 

"Pre-existence" is usually just short hand for "pre-mortal existence".  In this case, he was saying that the intelligence "pre-existed" the spiritual and physical creations.

 

-Stephen

Edited June 26, 2015 by stephenpurdy

[stephenpurdy]

The scriptures the prophets, and the church website disagree. They even include God in the first person saying he gave us agency.

 

 

I posted on this previously.  The LDS position is that while our intelligence (some core part of our essence/being) is eternal, we weren't in the position to "act" in a meaningful way.  In creation, both spiritual and physical, God has provided us with opportunities to choose. 

 

2 Nephi 2:14

And now, my sons, I speak unto you these things for your profit and learning; for there is a God, and he hath created all things, both the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are, both things to act and things to be acted upon.

 

Being created in the image and likeness of God, God created us to be able to act.  But this was not a creation which was purely from God's own mind, but instead a creation from something that already existed, from these "potential moral agents" which are eternal.   It is in that sense that God gave us agency, but I think that the best way to phrase it is that "the potential was already there."

 

"No special philosophical problems are raised by this view: If it is intelligible to hold that the existence of God requires no explanation, since something must exist necessarily and “of itself,” then it is not unintelligible to hold that that which exists necessarily is God and a realm of non-divine actualities."  -  "David Ray Griffin "Creation Out of Chaos and the Problem of Evil"". Anthonyflood.com. Retrieved 2013-08-01.

 

-Stephen

Edited June 26, 2015 by stephenpurdy

[stephenpurdy]

A good, short primer on logic is A. J. Ayer, Language, Truth, and Logic (1936), which is available online at https://ia802605.us.archive.org/10/items/AlfredAyer/LanguageTruthAndLogic.pdf or at  http://s-f-walker.org.uk/pubsebooks/pdfs/ayerLTL.pdf .  Another good way to be introduced to the subject is to take a course on critical thinking at a local college.

 

Most people learn basic logic in high school geometry class.  Others get it in college classes on critical thinking, logic, and philosophy.   No mathematician, physcist or chemist can function without mastery of logic.  Hawking, who is a profound thinker in physics and math, has likely found that normative Christian dogma is not logical and therefore rejects it.  For many that is the source of their rejection of religion in general -- even though some religions, such as the LDS faith, are quite logical.  However, Hawking  is not likely to want to waste time doing a survey of religions.  He doesn't believe in God because the god offered to him by mainstream religion is illogical and self-contradictory.

 

 

 

That is why I have argued that those who preach and teach Ex Nihilo creation theology have harmed the cause of believing in God, almost more than anyone or anything else.

 

-Stephen

[Bobbieaware]

God does not give us free will, we have it by right.

LDS theology posits free will as based on our coeternality with God. We are not fully contingent upon him. Like human children depend on their human parents for much that they need, and can never really repay their parents, so we are indebted to God. But our spark of being, our "intelligence" (not IQ) is pre-existent and coeternal with God, which gives us our individuality and right to free will. There is no other way.

But does not the Book of Mormon teach us that as a consequence of the fall there needed to be an infinite and eternal atonement in order for men to be made free once again?

26 And the Messiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the children of men from the fall. And because that they are redeemed from the fall they have become free forever, knowing good from evil; to act for themselves and not to be acted upon, save it be by the punishment of the law at the great and last day, according to the commandments which God hath given. (2 Nephi 2)

Throughout the Book of Mormon, it is repeated many times that God, not coeternality, made men free.

8 And under this head ye are made free, and there is no other head whereby ye can be made free. There is no other name given whereby salvation cometh; therefore, I would that ye should take upon you the name of Christ, all you that have entered into the covenant with God that ye should be obedient unto the end of your lives. (Josiah 5)

In fact, Jacob testifies that without an atonement all men would inexorably be drawn into perdition without any freedom to choose otherwise;

8 O the wisdom of God, his mercy and grace! For behold, if the flesh should rise no more our spirits must become subject to that angel who fell from before the presence of the Eternal God, and became the devil, to rise no more.

9 And our spirits must have become like unto him, and we become devils, angels to a devil, to be shut out from the presence of our God, and to remain with the father of lies, in misery, like unto himself; yea, to that being who beguiled our first parents, who transformeth himself nigh unto an angel of light, and stirreth up the children of men unto secret combinations of murder and all manner of secret works of darkness. (2 Nephi 9)

I'm genuinely interested to see how you would fit the above verses of scripture into your paradigm of freedom based solely on coeternity with God?

Edited June 26, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[CV75]

But does not the Book of Mormon teach us that as a consequence of the fall there needed to be an infinite and eternal atonement in order for men to be made free once again?

26 And the Messiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the children of men from the fall. And because that they are redeemed from the fall they have become free forever, knowing good from evil; to act for themselves and not to be acted upon, save it be by the punishment of the law at the great and last day, according to the commandments which God hath given. (2 Nephi 2)

Throughout the Book of Mormon, it is repeated many times that God, not coeternality, made men free.

8 And under this head ye are made free, and there is no other head whereby ye can be made free. There is no other name given whereby salvation cometh; therefore, I would that ye should take upon you the name of Christ, all you that have entered into the covenant with God that ye should be obedient unto the end of your lives. (Josiah 5)

In fact, Jacob testifies that without an atonement all men would inexorably be drawn into perdition without any freedom to choose otherwise;

8 O the wisdom of God, his mercy and grace! For behold, if the flesh should rise no more our spirits must become subject to that angel who fell from before the presence of the Eternal God, and became the devil, to rise no more.

9 And our spirits must have become like unto him, and we become devils, angels to a devil, to be shut out from the presence of our God, and to remain with the father of lies, in misery, like unto himself; yea, to that being who beguiled our first parents, who transformeth himself nigh unto an angel of light, and stirreth up the children of men unto secret combinations of murder and all manner of secret works of darkness. (2 Nephi 9)

I'm genuinely interested to see how you would fit the above verses of scripture into your paradigm of freedom based solely on coeternity with God?

I think we possess incipient agency coeternally with God, and we are indebted to Him for our ability to exercise it as He provides the gift of the greater light, coeternally. We have shown that at some point we exercised this agency well, as evidenced by our qualifying to enter the probationary mortal state, where we can either develop or stunt (or even destroy) it. Due to the nature of the fallen world and our inability to overcome it without Him, we would eventually make such choices and lose it completely without the Lord’s condescension into this world. I think this is how He made us free.

 

In the Book of Mormon verses you listed:

 

Because of the redemption, we are free forever; without the plan of redemption we would have lost our incipient agency, and even with it, it can be reduced by using it poorly as evidenced by being acted upon in the judgement.

 

Because of the redemption, perdition is forestalled until we can take upon the name of Christ—otherwise it is a foregone conclusion because we would inevitably corrupt and abandon our agency.

 

Because of the redemption, our inevitable total enslavement to the adversary is prevented simply because we have resurrected bodies. Except for those in Perdition, those in the lowest kingdom are still ministered to by the Holy Spirit and beyond the active influence of the devil.

[The Nehor]

I posted on this previously.  The LDS position is that while our intelligence (some core part of our essence/being) is eternal, we weren't in the position to "act" in a meaningful way.  In creation, both spiritual and physical, God has provided us with opportunities to choose. 

 

2 Nephi 2:14

And now, my sons, I speak unto you these things for your profit and learning; for there is a God, and he hath created all things, both the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are, both things to act and things to be acted upon.

 

Being created in the image and likeness of God, God created us to be able to act.  But this was not a creation which was purely from God's own mind, but instead a creation from something that already existed, from these "potential moral agents" which are eternal.   It is in that sense that God gave us agency, but I think that the best way to phrase it is that "the potential was already there."

 

"No special philosophical problems are raised by this view: If it is intelligible to hold that the existence of God requires no explanation, since something must exist necessarily and “of itself,” then it is not unintelligible to hold that that which exists necessarily is God and a realm of non-divine actualities."  -  "David Ray Griffin "Creation Out of Chaos and the Problem of Evil"". Anthonyflood.com. Retrieved 2013-08-01.

 

-Stephen

Which is a well-reasoned guess. If we were following the Catholic model of arriving at eternal truth I would probably even agree with you but we are not. We take the tiny tidbits we know about pre and post mortality and build elaborate logical frameworks around them and then base our views on these frameworks. The odds we got the frameworks right are infinitesimal and extrapolations from that are even less likely to be right.

[Nofear]

Please restate the question because as near as I can tell I addressed both questions. Logical coherence and whether the LDS position is possible...

I suppose if I read your response "Why wouldn't it be logically coherent?" as a rhetorical comment basically saying, "Well, duh, of course the LDS position, if creatio ex nihilo was not correct, is perfectly compatible with free will." I suppose I can live with that kind of response.

[Robert F. Smith]

......................................................................................

But if they do have free will and they got it from God then their free will is exactly what God gave to them when he gave them free will. If their will is to do good it is because gave them the free (as in independent) will to do good on their own without needing God to help them to do good in each and every instance, other than to sustain and honor their free will which he had already given to them.

We LDS do believe God gave us our free will, just not from out of nothing. Our God gave it to us, so it came from God, rather than nothing.

Not so.  Our only claim to individuality and free will is our spark of divinity, what we call "intelligence," which is uncreate and coeternal with God.  Any created, contingent being is 100% dependent on God for everything.  God cannot give free will any more that he can create ex nihilo.  He can assist and optimize it.  He can nurture and train his spirit children, but the only reason why there is free will is because of the quality or substance we call "intelligence."  God can give each "intelligence" (entelechy) a spirit body, and allow physical bodies to be formed during human gestation, but these are only factors which allow the maturation of "intelligence."  They do not create it.

[Ahab]

Not so. Our only claim to individuality and free will is our spark of divinity, what we call "intelligence," which is uncreate and coeternal with God. Any created, contingent being is 100% dependent on God for everything. God cannot give free will any more that he can create ex nihilo. He can assist and optimize it. He can nurture and train his spirit children, but the only reason why there is free will is because of the quality or substance we call "intelligence." God can give each "intelligence" (entelechy) a spirit body, and allow physical bodies to be formed during human gestation, but these are only factors which allow the maturation of "intelligence." They do not create it.

The act of creation, in our LDS understanding, is all about organizing. And organizing can and often includes assisting or giving services to try to help others as well as ourselves as we organize whatever we are organizing. Now you can plug in the word create wherever I use the word organize.

And as I told you before yes we have free will by virtue of the kind of being we are and always have been. And we did not come from nothing. We have always been the same kind of being we are now and we didn't get to where we are now by ourselves. We are now independent spirits of our Father in heaven but before we were independent spirits of him we were still the same kind of being we are now. We were part of him, not yet independent from him; as well as being part of all those from where he had come from. Parents reproducing themselves into what then are independent spirits. Same intelligence, or kind of intelligence, and same spirit or kind of spirit. All God. We are one and the same kind of being. Always have been and alwaya will be forever. And our free agency is the same kind of free agency as the kind our Father(s) in heaven have and have had which they passed on to us as they reproduced to create/organize us from themselves.

We seem to mostly agree except that you don't seem to like to use the word create as I do, but I am not talking about creating from nothing or from out of nowhere.

And you might also like to know that other kinds of beings besides the kind that we are also have free will as the kind of being they are. Other kinds of intelligences. LOTS of other kinds. And our kind often creates or organizes their kinds too.

[stephenpurdy]

But does not the Book of Mormon teach us that as a consequence of the fall there needed to be an infinite and eternal atonement in order for men to be made free once again?

26 And the Messiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the children of men from the fall. And because that they are redeemed from the fall they have become free forever, knowing good from evil; to act for themselves and not to be acted upon, save it be by the punishment of the law at the great and last day, according to the commandments which God hath given. (2 Nephi 2)

Throughout the Book of Mormon, it is repeated many times that God, not coeternality, made men free.

8 And under this head ye are made free, and there is no other head whereby ye can be made free. There is no other name given whereby salvation cometh; therefore, I would that ye should take upon you the name of Christ, all you that have entered into the covenant with God that ye should be obedient unto the end of your lives. (Josiah 5)

In fact, Jacob testifies that without an atonement all men would inexorably be drawn into perdition without any freedom to choose otherwise;

8 O the wisdom of God, his mercy and grace! For behold, if the flesh should rise no more our spirits must become subject to that angel who fell from before the presence of the Eternal God, and became the devil, to rise no more.

9 And our spirits must have become like unto him, and we become devils, angels to a devil, to be shut out from the presence of our God, and to remain with the father of lies, in misery, like unto himself; yea, to that being who beguiled our first parents, who transformeth himself nigh unto an angel of light, and stirreth up the children of men unto secret combinations of murder and all manner of secret works of darkness. (2 Nephi 9)

I'm genuinely interested to see how you would fit the above verses of scripture into your paradigm of freedom based solely on coeternity with God?

 

It isn't based "solely" on coeternity with God, but coeternity with God is part of it.

 

Furthermore, those scriptures are speaking on an entirely different topic.  Those verses are speaking concerning "fallen man".  We know that even one single sin (which we have all committed) is enough to keep us from the presence of God.  No "choice" on our part could ever undo that, therefore, without the atonement of Jesus Christ we would not be free to choose everlasting life. 

 

But Christ DID perform the atonement, which gives us the opportunity to choose eternal life by following Christ. 

 

Again, those verses have nothing to do with the fundamentals of free will itself.

 

-Stephen

[mfbukowski]

NOFEAR:  You want to say nothing influences our free will, albeit no competent observer will say so. Set that aside for a moment and ask did God know what Adam would do? Did he know how Adam would exercise his free will? And if so, why not simply roll the dice again as it were until he made somebody who would use their free will the right way (irrespective of influences - a moot matter ultimately)? Or, did God not know beforehand how Adam would exercise his free will to bring ruination down on his perfect creation?

 

The "dice" example is from my "supplement" video.

 

If you are familiar with mathematics and "number sets" we can say that you have a six sided cube.  Each role will obviously be a number between 1 and 6.  Let's say you have a cube that rolls

 

A)  1, 5, 3, 1, 3, 1,

 

and another cube that rolls

 

B)  2, 1, 4, 5, 4, 2,

 

Those are two "possible" cubes that could exist. 

 

What if even rolls represent "good" decisions and odd rolls represent "bad" decisions?  God knows what is going to happen before he even creates a cube "out of nothing" ... so would God rather create cube A above, or cube B above?

 

It gets worse....

Question:  Is there a "possible" cube that will randomly roll 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6?    How about randomly rolling 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2 ?

 

.... chew on that for a bit.

 

- -  - - - -  - - - - - -  - - - - - - - - - -  - - - - - - - -  - - - - - - - -

 

Now, at this point people say ... "well, free will isn't the same as random rolls of the dice".  I agree. 

 

That is where I move into the second part of my argument....

 

That is why I want Daniel to respond to this statement by Hausam,

 

"...the choices we make are the results of the motivations, desires, loves, values, priorities, beliefs, etc., that constitute who we are, that make up the real essence of our actual being. That is why our choices reveal who we are. If our choices were not produced from the essence of our being, they would not be our choices fundamentally and would not reveal anything about who we are."

 

The second half of my supplement video takes this into consideration.   For example, certain elements like helium or gold, or mercury "behave" a certain way based on what they are made of.  They may have random electrons in a cloud, but they still have predictable behaviors based on their characteristics (the make up of those atoms).  You can tell what an element is made of if you analyze its characteristics.

 

-Stephen

Thanks for your reply, but I was really responding to nofear's statement

 

Or, did God not know beforehand how Adam would exercise his free will to bring ruination down on his perfect creation?

I thought that raised a pretty interesting dilemma for those inclined to worry about this stuff.

 

As far as the problem of free will and determinism, I tend to go with Wittgenstein that such confusions are purely semantic.  We still praise or blame people for their actions, and make choices all the time regardless of the out come of the debate.