Al Jazeera Series On Flds

[Buckeye]

Al Jazeera America (http://america.aljazeera.com/) is running a front-page series on religous themes, many of which relate to FLDS and LDS. Below are links to 3 articles that should interest this board. The first two relate stories of FLDS who have fled short creek. The third discusses the rise of the LDS and JW churches in the Caucuses. As with most things Al Jazeera produces, I found this pieces to be as fair and balanced as anything in the main stream media.

 

http://america.aljazeera.com/multimedia/2015/3/fleeing-the-flds-sect.html

 

http://america.aljazeera.com/watch/shows/america-tonight/america-tonight-blog/2013/9/9/in-polygamy-countrywomanlongsforadifferentlife.html

 

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/7/5/the-rise-of-mormonsandjehovahaswitnessesinthecaucasus.html
 

[Okrahomer]

Very interesting articles.  Thanks for sharing! 

[Tacenda]

Maybe ERayR and others will see this for what it is!  ETA:  the links to the FLDS articles.

[JLHPROF]

Maybe ERayR and others will see this for what it is!  ETA:  the links to the FLDS articles.

 

To what are you referring?

I don't know anyone who defends the FLDS group, not even on this board.

But not all fundamentalists are FLDS and not all are batcrap crazy like Warren Jeffs either.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Meh.

[ERayR]

Maybe ERayR and others will see this for what it is!  ETA:  the links to the FLDS articles.

 

Tacenda you misrepresent my position.  I told you more than once that I did not approve nor support the FLDS position.  What I decried was the unconstitutional way that the state of Texas approached the problem.  I believe that the Texas official approach actually hurt the efforts to help the women and children out of their plight.  I will say it again violating constitutional rights and civil liberties is never the way to solve a problem.  When someone elses rights are destroyed so is everybody's.

 

Add:  From reading the articles it appears the DOJ is trying to do it right.  Collect evidence, make a case and then prosecute the guilty.  That is a step in the right direction.  They don't appear to be rushing in with a fleet of baptist buses and loading up and separating moms and kids.

[Tacenda]

Tacenda you misrepresent my position. I told you more than once that I did not approve nor support the FLDS position. What I decried was the unconstitutional way that the state of Texas approached the problem. I believe that the Texas official approach actually hurt the efforts to help the women and children out of their plight. I will say it again violating constitutional rights and civil liberties is never the way to solve a problem. When someone elses rights are destroyed so is everybody's.

Add: From reading the articles it appears the DOJ is trying to do it right. Collect evidence, make a case and then prosecute the guilty. That is a step in the right direction. They don't appear to be rushing in with a fleet of baptist buses and loading up and separating moms and kids.

The whole reason Warren Jeffs was found guilty of raping young girls is because they went after the group in TX. If they hadn't, who knows how many more victims there would be and how long Warren would control many more FLDS members. Sometime there needs to be extreme measures to be taken when there is evidence of foul play.

[JLHPROF]

The whole reason Warren Jeffs was found guilty of raping young girls is because they went after the group in TX. If they hadn't, who knows how many more victims there would be and how long Warren would control many more FLDS members. Sometime there needs to be extreme measures to be taken when there is evidence of foul play.

 

Breaking up innocent families to catch one creepy weirdo is not ok.

Would you want your children taken away for 6 months (or however long) so they can get your next door neighbor or your bishop?

[ERayR]

The whole reason Warren Jeffs was found guilty of raping young girls is because they went after the group in TX. If they hadn't, who knows how many more victims there would be and how long Warren would control many more FLDS members. Sometime there needs to be extreme measures to be taken when there is evidence of foul play.

 

Do you not comprehend what I wrote?  I did not say not to "go after" them.  I said to do it by gathering evidence, building their case and prosecuting not load them in Baptist buses and trample their constitutional rights.  The DOJ seems to be doing it in Utah and Arizona.  Take off your blinders and look past your hatred and see that when the FLDS civil liberties are violated so is yours.

[Tacenda]

Do you not comprehend what I wrote? I did not say not to "go after" them. I said to do it by gathering evidence, building their case and prosecuting not load them in Baptist buses and trample their constitutional rights. The DOJ seems to be doing it in Utah and Arizona. Take off your blinders and look past your hatred and see that when the FLDS civil liberties are violated so is yours.

There's no time to waste when innocent children are being abused. This could have taken years. Utah never has been able to crack through. Oh, now they're working on it, how long has it taken? What a joke! It's you who has blinders on ERayR. Emergency responders have to break the doors down if there's a fire, well there was a fire, a much worse one. I do agree that the Baptist may have done it wrong, but these families have been brainwashed, this evil man could do no wrong, their children paid the price. Do the research, then come back and tell me something didn't need to be done sooner than it did. Innocent families?? Some of them are just as evil as the perpetrator. Please read their stories.

[ERayR]

There's no time to waste when innocent children are being abused. This could have taken years. Utah never has been able to crack through. Oh, now they're working on it, how long has it taken? What a joke! It's you who has blinders on ERayR. Emergency responders have to break the doors down if there's a fire, well there was a fire, a much worse one. I do agree that the Baptist may have done it wrong, but these families have been brainwashed, this evil man could do no wrong, their children paid the price. Do the research, then come back and tell me something didn't need to be done sooner than it did. Innocent families?? Some of them are just as evil as the perpetrator. Please read their stories.

 

AGAIN I did not nor do I say something should not have been done in the cases of abuse so please get that out of your head.  However, the suspension of civil liberties is not now nor has it ever been an acceptable alternative for good police work.

 

Now do you think it all right to traumatize hundreds of children and when it was all over the children were all returned to the parents.  No children were protected, nothing was accomplished and over 400 children were traumatized.  Good police work and following constitutional procedures may have helped some.

 

http://www.texasobserver.org/no-refuge/

[Stargazer]

There's no time to waste when innocent children are being abused. This could have taken years. Utah never has been able to crack through. Oh, now they're working on it, how long has it taken? What a joke! It's you who has blinders on ERayR. Emergency responders have to break the doors down if there's a fire, well there was a fire, a much worse one. I do agree that the Baptist may have done it wrong, but these families have been brainwashed, this evil man could do no wrong, their children paid the price. Do the research, then come back and tell me something didn't need to be done sooner than it did. Innocent families?? Some of them are just as evil as the perpetrator. Please read their stories.

 

Oh, yes, let's DO SOMETHING.  By all means.  Even if it fails and leaves those you're trying to help in the same or worse situation than they were before. 

 

But if it makes you feel better having tried and failed, then OK, go right ahead.

 

On March 26, 1945, in one of General Patton's few stinker tactical decisions, he sent Task Force Baum, consisting of 314 men, 16 tanks, and assorted other vehicles, 50 miles behind German lines to liberate a prisoner of war camp, OFLAG XIII-B near Hammelburg (in fact the camp that the one in the TV series "Hogan's Heroes" was modeled after). One of the inmates was Patton's son-in-law, Lieutenant Colonel John K. Waters, who had been captured in North Africa. The raid was a failure, and only 35 men made it back; the rest were either killed or captured, and all 57 vehicles were lost. Waters himself was seriously wounded and remained in German custody until the end of the war.  Patton later admitted that the raid would have succeeded if he had sent a force three times as large.

 

The lesson here, along with Texas's blunder, is that unless there is immediate danger to life and limb, it is better to plan well for a complete solution instead of acting on emotional hysteria and making a complete botch of it.  A solution that leaves the victim in as bad or worse situation than before is NOT a good thing.

[Robert F. Smith]

The whole reason Warren Jeffs was found guilty of raping young girls is because they went after the group in TX. If they hadn't, who knows how many more victims there would be and how long Warren would control many more FLDS members. Sometime there needs to be extreme measures to be taken when there is evidence of foul play.

Yes, and the refusal of the attorneys general in Arizona and Utah to go after the FLDS aided and abetted in the commission of those crimes.

[Ham Clam]

Anyone here listen to the interview with the director of 'Prophet's Prey' on RadioWest?

[JLHPROF]

Anyone here listen to the interview with the director of 'Prophet's Prey' on RadioWest?

 

No, but anything highlighting Krakauer is worth a miss.  His Under The Banner of Heaven was totally biased against the Church and esp. Joseph Smith.

[Tacenda]

No, but anything highlighting Krakauer is worth a miss. His Under The Banner of Heaven was totally biased against the Church and esp. Joseph Smith.

I just listened. Maybe you should too, you might learn something.

[ERayR]

I just listened. Maybe you should too, you might learn something.

 

But one has to wade through so much filth and garbage to get the small nuggets of worth.  There is so much more productive ways to spend ones time.

 

PS:  Did you consider that you act now think later approach is doing more damage than good to the ones you profess to care about.

[JLHPROF]

I just listened. Maybe you should too, you might learn something.

 

Oh, I know plenty about the dozens of fundamentalist movements.  I have studied them all at length, both historically and doctrinally.  The last thing I need is some pseudo-journalistic bias.

And Krakauer already published a bunch of bias.  Why watch more?

[Tacenda]

Oh, I know plenty about the dozens of fundamentalist movements.  I have studied them all at length, both historically and doctrinally.  The last thing I need is some pseudo-journalistic bias.

And Krakauer already published a bunch of bias.  Why watch more?

What about Sam Brower, he's mentioned even more.  He's faithful LDS and has been working on the scene for quite some time as a detective, he's a big reason Warren is behind bars. 

 

Sam is working on the case of the FLDS perhaps smuggling women or trafficking women to places like Mexico.  He's trying to prove it's against their will.  Too bad Warren Jeff's brother is in charge, along with Warren.  Sadly it's getting worse, before it gets better, that's why I thought you may want to listen, there is info that I didn't know were occurring.  Folks need to be aware of the evil and do something or it's just like standing around doing nothing while some are committing a crime.  Isn't there a scripture or something about this, I think it's about good men doing nothing. 

 

Oh, here's scripture...

 

James 4:17 says "So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin."

 

 

[Calm]

What are you doing?

[Tacenda]

What are you doing?

Hello Cal, are you asking me? If so, I'm just obsessing over the FLDS, like I do everytime it's been brought up. ETA: How dumb I am, now just realized why you asked. I'm donating to Holding Out Help. Can't post link, I'm on my mobile.

[ERayR]

 

What about Sam Brower, he's mentioned even more.  He's faithful LDS and has been working on the scene for quite some time as a detective, he's a big reason Warren is behind bars. 

 

Sam is working on the case of the FLDS perhaps smuggling women or trafficking women to places like Mexico.  He's trying to prove it's against their will.  Too bad Warren Jeff's brother is in charge, along with Warren.  Sadly it's getting worse, before it gets better, that's why I thought you may want to listen, there is info that I didn't know were occurring.  Folks need to be aware of the evil and do something or it's just like standing around doing nothing while some are committing a crime.  Isn't there a scripture or something about this, I think it's about good men doing nothing. 

 

Oh, here's scripture...

 

James 4:17 says "So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin."

 

 

 

 

But the action you championed did absolutely nothing to help those who need help.  It is never a good idea to ignore civil rights.  It is against the law.

[Tacenda]

But the action you championed did absolutely nothing to help those who need help. It is never a good idea to ignore civil rights. It is against the law.

Like I've mentioned to you before, Laban was murdered for the good of mankind. According to scripture. What happened in TX doesn't come close, if they had not gone in to the YFZ Ranch they would not have seen underage pregnant women. They would not have had a case. Oprah is going to do another show coming up on the aftermath, should be interesting. Maybe shed some light.

[ERayR]

Like I've mentioned to you before, Laban was murdered for the good of mankind. According to scripture. What happened in TX doesn't come close, if they had not gone in to the YFZ Ranch they would not have seen underage pregnant women. They would not have had a case. Oprah is going to do another show coming up on the aftermath, should be interesting. Maybe shed some light.

 

Because of the way it was handled they had no case as it was.  Because of civil rights violations the State of Texas had to release all children back to their parents, INCLUDING THE PREGNANT UNDERAGE ONES.  Nothing was done for those you profess concern for yet you continue to laud it as a success. It was no success it was a failure.  Be sure you read the last one and think about whether you would want your children or grand children that way.  Wasn't it you that stated your SIL has/had some immigration problems?  How would you like to see him and his family rounded up and separated.  If they can do it with FLDS they can do it with them.

 

The court added that Judge Walther had abused her discretion by keeping the children in state care.  The court stated, “On the record before us, removal of the children was not warranted.” (In other words the children were not in danger in the estimation of the judge.)

 

On May 13, Louisa Bradshaw Jessop gave birth to a son.^] Louisa Jessop had been classified as 17 by CPS, although her husband had previously provided a birth certificate and driver's license to demonstrate that she was 22.

 

On May 22, CPS declared half of the alleged teen mothers to be adults, some as old as 27. One who had been listed as an underage mother had never been pregnant.

 

The FLDS described the separation of mothers from their children as "inhumane". When the children under 5 realized their mothers would be taken away, the children started crying and screaming, requiring CPS workers to pry many from their mothers.  This should not happen to small children. 

[JLHPROF]

Like I've mentioned to you before, Laban was murdered for the good of mankind. According to scripture. What happened in TX doesn't come close, if they had not gone in to the YFZ Ranch they would not have seen underage pregnant women. They would not have had a case. Oprah is going to do another show coming up on the aftermath, should be interesting. Maybe shed some light.

 

I'm no fan of Warren Jeffs and his crowd.  It is very good that he is in jail.

But I find your feelings towards the FLDS membership (and polygamy in general) border on irrational.

The entire raid set a very bad precedent.  And all polygamist groups aren't like the FLDS.

 

Those mothers should not have had their children taken away just to get at Jeffs.  It was wrong.

They tried the same thing back in 1953 - it was almost universally condemned as a stupid thing to do to families.

 

In fact there was so much backlash against the Church for supporting the raid that they didn't publicly supported any action against polygamists since, which is what allowed Warren Jeffs and his father to come to power and abuse so many in the first place.

 

If they'd never raided the FLDS in 1953 they would have been more able to fight the abuse in all the years that followed.

I can't help but wonder if the ill-advised raids in 2008 are having the same effect - making the stopping of criminals harder.

 

Stopping sin is right.  Committing more sin to do it isn't.