Eternal Increase And Eternal Progression

california boy · February 21, 2015

In another thread, Smac made a very interesting comment that I would like to discuss. This is what he said

The concept of Eternal Progression is inextricably linked to eternal increase. We are created as the spirit "children" of God. We are literally His children. "Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose." Temple work is entirely devoted to sealing spouses, a man and a woman, to each other and to their children. Eternal marriages, eternal families, eternal increase.

What we call "sexual orientation" appears to be part and parcel of the eternal scheme of things.

Thanks,

-Smac

I found this statement to be quite interesting. Are all straight married Mormons thrilled with the idea of having billions of children in the Celestial Kingdom? Is that what is driving everyone to try and be found worthy? Do you all believe that the only way to continue to progress is through having more offspring?

If that is true, it certainly explains a lot of the reasons for some peoples views on homosexuality. I would really like to know how important this idea of having billions of offspring really is. Would you guys let me know if this is of paramount importance to you as well? What drives you to want to enter the Celestial Kingdom. I am really curious.

Uncle Dale · February 21, 2015

In another thread, Smac made a very interesting comment that I would like to discuss. This is what he said

I found this statement to be quite interesting. Are all straight married Mormons thrilled with the idea of having billions of children in the Celestial Kingdom? Is that what is driving everyone to try and be found worthy? Do you all believe that the only way to continue to progress is through having more offspring?

If that is true, it certainly explains a lot of the reasons for some peoples views on homosexuality. I would really like to know how important this idea of having billions of offspring really is. Would you guys let me know if this is of paramount importance to you as well? What drives you to want to enter the Celestial Kingdom. I am really curious.

After decades of attempting to talk some faithful LDS into

discussing such things with me, the most I ever was told:

"When you've been through the Temple, look me up and

we can talk. Of course, by then, you'll know as much as I."

I don't expect that you'll hear much more in this forum than

that sort of humility, coupled with residence.

Good luck though.

UD

Mystery Meat · February 21, 2015

"For this is my work and glory, to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man."

God is perfect. He does not progress in that he has things to learn.

However, His glory increases with each one of His children that is exalted OR when one of His children's children is exalted.

So yes, glory and eternal glory is very much connected to increase.

california boy · February 21, 2015

"For this is my work and glory, to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man."

God is perfect. He does not progress in that he has things to learn.

However, His glory increases with each one of His children that is exalted OR when one of His children's children is exalted.

So yes, glory and eternal glory is very much connected to increase.

So are you saying that the thing that is motivating you to obtain Celestial Glory is having billions of children? Is that what this is all about?

Duncan · February 21, 2015

In another thread, Smac made a very interesting comment that I would like to discuss. This is what he said

I found this statement to be quite interesting. Are all straight married Mormons thrilled with the idea of having billions of children in the Celestial Kingdom? Is that what is driving everyone to try and be found worthy? Do you all believe that the only way to continue to progress is through having more offspring?

If that is true, it certainly explains a lot of the reasons for some peoples views on homosexuality. I would really like to know how important this idea of having billions of offspring really is. Would you guys let me know if this is of paramount importance to you as well? What drives you to want to enter the Celestial Kingdom. I am really curious.

I take what your asking is what are people's motivations for doing all this stuff, I would like to know everything and be happy, married and I love kids and stuff but having billions and billions, I dunno, I suppose my worldview on that will change in the world to come. For now though I am trying to keep up with one! But there is a grey areas like people who are unfit parents, some people just can't handle them and abusive parents and all this kind of thing

Tacenda · February 21, 2015

In another thread someone quotes Fanny Alger saying that she only wanted to be an administering angel when she got to heaven, and then Joseph Smith had Brigham Young perform her marriage to him, I guess to go against it. I'm with Fanny, and what the bible says that we will be!

Mystery Meat · February 21, 2015

So are you saying that the thing that is motivating you to obtain Celestial Glory is having billions of children? Is that what this is all about?

Its about a lot of things. Eternal increase is one.

Buzzard · February 21, 2015

My guess is that if your motivation is to have billions of kids, you may not have grasped the vision quite yet. I confess to wanting to be with my wife forever, but I hope that my main motivation is to be like and live with my Heavenly Father.

If as a result of that, there are spirit children involved down the line, good for me. But I cannot remember ever thinking to my self that I sure hope to have billions and billions of spirit children.

And given the state of my health, I have spent a considerable amount of time pondering my life, and my readyness or lack therof to meet God.

Coreyb · February 21, 2015

In another thread, Smac made a very interesting comment that I would like to discuss. This is what he said
I found this statement to be quite interesting. Are all straight married Mormons thrilled with the idea of having billions of children in the Celestial Kingdom? Is that what is driving everyone to try and be found worthy? Do you all believe that the only way to continue to progress is through having more offspring?
If that is true, it certainly explains a lot of the reasons for some peoples views on homosexuality. I would really like to know how important this idea of having billions of offspring really is. Would you guys let me know if this is of paramount importance to you as well? What drives you to want to enter the Celestial Kingdom. I am really curious.

I certainly cannot speak for all believing Mormons, as the differences from one to another are quite apparent on this board, but I will attempt to answer your question. It is central to Mormon thought that all of humankind is made in the image of God, or for those in the know "the Gods". We are composed of spirit and flesh, and when spirit and flesh are inseparably connected we may have a fullness of joy. It follows that this is the state of (the) God(s). God(s) found himself/ themselves surrounded by intelligence(s) of lesser glory and power, and as any decent being would do, they invited these intelligences to follow the process and laws by which they themselves received this great glory and fullness of joy. This is where it gets tricky, where some believe these intelligences were born in the flesh, and some believe they were born first in spirit (by two immortal Gods) and then in flesh (to two mortal gods). The goal of our God(s) is/are to allow all those who wish to become Gods like them, to do so. The beauty of it is that we, as intelligences clothed is spirit and flesh, are still agents and don't have to do anything we don't want to do. If we don't want to become Gods we don't have to, there are other options. This is why there are degrees of glory any degrees within degrees. Kingdoms within the Kingdom. We don't have to live our lives the way Gid lives His, but He is determined to show us how if we so desire, and if we will learn how. Now why does He want us to be like Him? I dunno, I suppose it is the most joyful, and fulfilling way to live. It makes sense to me that the most fulfilling life would be to create and organize systems whereby you can teach lesser beings to exalt themselves and transcend their current limitations, even if it causes you personal sufferings and sometimes makes you weep. Isn't this the most fullfilling way to live even now? To teach, to parent, to heal, to nurture, to work to exalt our race to a better way of living? To me, this is how we fullfilling the greatest commandments, to love God by loving our neighbor. To love the Gods by literally loving the gods we live with here and now. Being a God may not be for everybody, but for me, I cannot think of a more worthwhile way to spend Eternal Lives . Edited February 21, 2015 by Coreyb

Coreyb · February 21, 2015

In another thread someone quotes Fanny Alger saying that she only wanted to be an administering angel when she got to heaven, and then Joseph Smith had Brigham Young perform her marriage to him, I guess to go against it. I'm with Fanny, and what the bible says that we will be!

That wasn't Fanny Alger

cipriano · February 21, 2015

Fanny Young, I believe. President Young's older sister. That is one of my favorite stories from the Nauvoo period.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that the standard take on "Eternal Progression", as described in "The Seer" and often talked about in our LDS culture, was disowned by the First Presidency. You know the story - infinite number of children until you get your own planet. I thought it was pretty clear that the celestialized earth is our eventual home. I'm not being contenscious, I just think there is much confusion about Eternal Increase/Eternal Progression that dates back to "The Seer". I'd love to hear more opinions on this issue.

Hamba Tuhan · February 21, 2015

Are all straight married Mormons thrilled with the idea of having billions of children in the Celestial Kingdom?

I'm neither 'straight' nor married, but I would refine your query just a bit in my answer: I am thrilled with the idea of family life continuing forever and with that family life specifically being modelled on the life our perfect Heavenly Parents enjoy. I had an opportunity earlier today to meet with one of the Twelve in a leadership training meeting, and he again emphasised the absolute necessity of the eternal junction of male and female in the Plan of Salvation.

Coreyb · February 21, 2015

Fanny Young, I believe. President Young's older sister. That is one of my favorite stories from the Nauvoo period.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that the standard take on "Eternal Progression", as described in "The Seer" and often talked about in our LDS culture, was disowned by the First Presidency. You know the story - infinite number of children until you get your own planet. I thought it was pretty clear that the celestialized earth is our eventual home. I'm not being contenscious, I just think there is much confusion about Eternal Increase/Eternal Progression that dates back to "The Seer". I'd love to hear more opinions on this issue.

I have noticed that it is a fairly common apologetic malpractice to attribute any uncomfortable nineteenth century doctrines to The Seer and then dismiss them saying it was all disavowed by the first presidency. Yes it was disavowed, but there is much more to the story. In order not to derail, suffice it to say that these doctrines of eternal increase and eternal progression did not originate with The Seer, and they are not the reason it was rejected. Brigham Young and most all nineteenth century prophets and apostles taught these things. If you want to know more about the reasons The Seer was rejected and the surrounding doctrinal conflicts, I would recommend Breck England's The Life And Thought Of Orson Pratt or Gary Bergera's Conflict In The Quorum

cipriano · February 21, 2015

In order not to derail, suffice it to say that these doctrines of eternal increase and eternal progression did not originate with The Seer, and they are not the reason it was rejected. Brigham Young and most all nineteenth century prophets and apostles taught these things. If you want to know more about the reasons The Seer was rejected and the surrounding doctrinal conflicts, I would recommend Breck England's The Life And Thought Of Orson Pratt or Gary Bergera's Conflict In The Quorum

I don't think it would derail the thread. In fact, I think these teachings are what California Boy was asking about in the original post. He asked a logical question: "Do you all believe that the only way to continue to progress is through having more offspring?".

It is my personal opinion that, no, offspring is not required for entrance into the highest realms Our Father has in store for us. But temple marriage is. Having said that, I realize that I am probably in the minority regarding this. Actually, I might be the only person holding this view. Many, including the Pope, would call me selfish but I don't think procreation is something a practicing Latter Day Saint absolutely has to check off a to-do list before leaving this life.

Thanks for the book recommendations. I've been meaning to pick up Conflict in The Quorum.

Calm · February 21, 2015

"I don't think procreation is something a practicing Latter Day Saint absolutely has to check off a to-do list before leaving this life."

Since singles are promised exaltation if they live worthy of it then surely married but childless would be as well if their choices not to have children were worthy as well.

california boy · February 21, 2015

Its about a lot of things. Eternal increase is one.

So what other things? I am interested in what motivates you and what you think is so great about the Celestial Kingdom.

california boy · February 21, 2015

I certainly cannot speak for all believing Mormons, as the differences from one to another are quite apparent on this board, but I will attempt to answer your question. It is central to Mormon thought that all of humankind is made in the image of God, or for those in the know "the Gods". We are composed of spirit and flesh, and when spirit and flesh are inseparably connected we may have a fullness of joy. It follows that this is the state of (the) God(s). God(s) found himself/ themselves surrounded by intelligence(s) of lesser glory and power, and as any decent being would do, they invited these intelligences to follow the process and laws by which they themselves received this great glory and fullness of joy. This is where it gets tricky, where some believe these intelligences were born in the flesh, and some believe they were born first in spirit (by two immortal Gods) and then in flesh (to two mortal gods). The goal of our God(s) is/are to allow all those who wish to become Gods like them, to do so. The beauty of it is that we, as intelligences clothed is spirit and flesh, are still agents and don't have to do anything we don't want to do. If we don't want to become Gods we don't have to, there are other options. This is why there are degrees of glory any degrees within degrees. Kingdoms within the Kingdom. We don't have to live our lives the way Gid lives His, but He is determined to show us how if we so desire, and if we will learn how. Now why does He want us to be like Him? I dunno, I suppose it is the most joyful, and fulfilling way to live. It makes sense to me that the most fulfilling life would be to create and organize systems whereby you can teach lesser beings to exalt themselves and transcend their current limitations, even if it causes you personal sufferings and sometimes makes you weep. Isn't this the most fullfilling way to live even now? To teach, to parent, to heal, to nurture, to work to exalt our race to a better way of living? To me, this is how we fullfilling the greatest commandments, to love God by loving our neighbor. To love the Gods by literally loving the gods we live with here and now. Being a God may not be for everybody, but for me, I cannot think of a more worthwhile way to spend Eternal Lives .

Thanks for you post. It is very thoughtful. You bring up some interesting things. I loved raising kids. Now they are grown and being a part of their life is certainly a blessing. But for the most part, it is a very minor part of what I am actively doing now in my life. And I find my life still very rich and fulfilling. So it makes me wonder what fulfillment I would find in the next life. I know the most consistent thing that I have found fulfillment in is in creating works of art and building things, I guess I don't look at my children as something I created. Well maybe initially, but so much of who they are is because of the choices and hard work they have put into their lives. So for me, creating billions of children seems less rewarding then say creating worlds or maybe even more the beauty found on those worlds. Maybe not all of us are even destined to be the ones creating billions of children.

california boy · February 21, 2015

I'm neither 'straight' nor married, but I would refine your query just a bit in my answer: I am thrilled with the idea of family life continuing forever and with that family life specifically being modelled on the life our perfect Heavenly Parents enjoy. I had an opportunity earlier today to meet with one of the Twelve in a leadership training meeting, and he again emphasised the absolute necessity of the eternal junction of male and female in the Plan of Salvation.

I agree that there is great appeal to continuing family life in the Celestial Kingdom. But having billions of children seems to me to be really nothing like family life as we know it. Having 2 to say 10 children seems like a much different experience than having billions. It is the joy of nurturing and seeing growth in those that we intimately love that brings me joy. Billions? I can't see how that would bring about the same kinds of rewards. It seems more like you would be dealing more in statistics than intimate relationships.

california boy · February 21, 2015

I don't think it would derail the thread. In fact, I think these teachings are what California Boy was asking about in the original post. He asked a logical question: "Do you all believe that the only way to continue to progress is through having more offspring?".

It is my personal opinion that, no, offspring is not required for entrance into the highest realms Our Father has in store for us. But temple marriage is. Having said that, I realize that I am probably in the minority regarding this. Actually, I might be the only person holding this view. Many, including the Pope, would call me selfish but I don't think procreation is something a practicing Latter Day Saint absolutely has to check off a to-do list before leaving this life.

Thanks for the book recommendations. I've been meaning to pick up Conflict in The Quorum.

I guess that is why I asked the question. I wonder how common your view is in the church. And no it would not derail thi thread at all. I am interested in what motivates people to strive for the Celestial Kingdom and what role eternal increase has in that motivation. Also, what the relationship with billions of offspring would be rewarding as opposed to say a more intimate and manageable number, what ever that would be. Billions just seems insane to me. Thanks for your post.

Edited February 21, 2015 by california boy

Senator · February 21, 2015

I guess that is why I asked the question. I wonder how common your view is in the church. And no it would not derail thi thread at all. I am interested in what motivates people to strive for the Celestial Kingdom and what role eternal increase has in that motivation. Also, what the relationship with billions of offspring would be rewarding as opposed to say a more intimate and manageable number, what ever that would be. Billions just seems insane to me. Thanks for your post.

Who's to say that God's billions wasn't procured in the same way as Adam and Eve's billions?

Bobbieaware · February 21, 2015

So what other things? I am interested in what motivates you and what you think is so great about the Celestial Kingdom.

The prophets of the Book of Mormon assert that eternal life is a state of happiness that has no end. I believe them. After all, those who inherit eternal life are promised they will become joint heirs with Christ to possess ALL the Father possesses. This means they will inherit the eternal fullness of all the Father's perfect divine attributes including all of his intelligence, knowledge, wisdom, power, goodness, kindness, priesthood authority, kingship, mercy, compassion, sense of justice, faith, hope and infinite and eternal love.

Now think about it: what good would it do to possess all the fullness of God's perfect attributes of knowledge, power and glory only to end up sitting around for all eternity doing nothing but uselessly basking in the light of one's own perfection? What a waste! It makes no sense! What good would it do to possess all of these divine powers and attributes (the only logical and practical use of which is to use them to help other lesser intelligences to progress and improve) but never have an opportunity to use them in the manner in which they were meant to be used?

Even on this fallen world, family life is the most meaningful and fulfilling way to apply the divine attributes that we now only possess in rudimentary form. Therefore, it makes perfect sense that a form of family life in heaven would be the most meaningful and fulfilling way to apply the divine attributes when we possess them in eternal perfection. Any other way of doing it and heaven becomes little more than a never-ending Disneyland -- fun at first but eventually really, really boring. Think about it...

Edited February 21, 2015 by Bobbieaware

JLHPROF · February 21, 2015

God is perfect. He does not progress in that he has things to learn.

However, His glory increases with each one of His children that is exalted OR when one of His children's children is exalted.

Completely disagree. God absolutely progresses in knowledge and experience. For me the alternative is too unpleasant to even consider.

JLHPROF · February 21, 2015

So what other things? I am interested in what motivates you and what you think is so great about the Celestial Kingdom.

I am a firm believer in eternal progression - knowledge, experience, power, glory, priesthood, and yes, family & kingdoms.

If the only reward to eternal increase was children I don't think I'd be as interested, but fortunately that is just one aspect. There are kingdoms higher than Celestial (where God dwells) and I anticipate forever moving upwards and forever raising my posterity to follow, just as God does.

The idea of being stagnant is horrifying.

Mystery Meat · February 21, 2015

So what other things? I am interested in what motivates you and what you think is so great about the Celestial Kingdom.

I believe the Celestial Kingdom is the only place where marriage relationships continue, so being married to my wife in the next life as well sounds nice. Living in the presence of God the Father and his Son Jesus Christ also appeals. Living with my parents and siblings would be a bonus. They are pretty good folks. I love astronomy so understanding the principles of astronomical physics and how it all comes together with a perfect understand is very exciting. And yes, eternal offspring, that is a big one.

All while doing this forever. That is exciting!

Mystery Meat · February 21, 2015

I am a firm believer in eternal progression - knowledge, experience, power, glory, priesthood, and yes, family & kingdoms.

If the only reward to eternal increase was children I don't think I'd be as interested, but fortunately that is just one aspect. There are kingdoms higher than Celestial (where God dwells) and I anticipate forever moving upwards and forever raising my posterity to follow, just as God does.

The idea of being stagnant is horrifying.

Can't wait to find out which one of us is right!

Eternal Increase And Eternal Progression

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