LOSTONE Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 There is the issue of weather animals go to Heaven ( or any after life ) when they die. Been an issue with this subject forever and just read a story about it on the web. I don’t get why this subject is still debated. I know that The Bible may not be clear on this matter, but it is very clear on God’s love for all he created. So with that, it makes only sense that animals do go to Heaven and have an after life. Why would God love all his creations and not allow some ( like innocent animals ) to enjoy Heaven with people ( who are born in sin and wicked by nature )? No, I say God does allow animals to go to Heaven and they do have an after life. I may be wrong and may never know for sure, but for my Earth bound time, this is what I believe. Link to comment
Buzzard Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 I sure hope that mosquitoes and cockroaches and Black Widow spiders are not all going to be resurrected. Having said that, I have a dog or two that would make a wonderful companion. Joseph Smith reportedly said he wanted his favorite horse to be with him in the world to come. Link to comment
3DOP Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 (edited) There is the issue of weather animals go to Heaven ( or any after life ) when they die. Been an issue with this subject forever and just read a story about it on the web. I don’t get why this subject is still debated. I know that The Bible may not be clear on this matter, but it is very clear on God’s love for all he created. So with that, it makes only sense that animals do go to Heaven and have an after life. Why would God love all his creations and not allow some ( like innocent animals ) to enjoy Heaven with people ( who are born in sin and wicked by nature )? No, I say God does allow animals to go to Heaven and they do have an after life. I may be wrong and may never know for sure, but for my Earth bound time, this is what I believe. In a nutshell, here is my problem with animals "in heaven". I do not say that animals cannot dwell in the presence of God, but they cannot know Him. Heaven is knowing God, it is seeing Him. Heaven is more than merely not sinning. It is overcoming the facility to sin and choosing to love. We can love God and we can love the animals which reflect many of God's perfections, but they do not have the potential to rise to the dignity of man. If animals possess the faculty to know, love, and serve God, if they have immortal souls like ours, then our entire way of treating animals is wrong. We should not eat them. We should not use them as farm animals. We should not even turn them into our "pets". Instead of feeling free to sterilize them, maybe we should evangelize them and try to get them in to church where they can be happiest, worshipping the God they love? But everything in my experience tells me that even my most beloved pets, my dearest kitty, lives by instinct and not intellect. I am greatly attached to her for multiple reasons, but I can not think my Mina has free will. It does not make any sense. I could more easily wish that she were human, than that I could my believe my beautiful black and white kitty has the capacity, as a cat, to appreciate the presence of God. I am not against loving our animals, I am in favor of it. But if my theology teaches they can go to heaven, it greatly affects how I view the way they are treated by humans. If animals go to Heaven, I am afraid that most of us humans should go to Hell for the way we don't recognize their dignity in God's kingdom. Edited January 17, 2015 by 3DOP Link to comment
LOSTONE Posted January 17, 2015 Author Share Posted January 17, 2015 In a nutshell, here is my problem with animals "in heaven". I do not say that animals cannot dwell in the presence of God, but they cannot know Him. Heaven is knowing God, it is seeing Him. Heaven is more than merely not sinning. It is overcoming the facility to sin and choosing to love. We can love God and we can love the animals which reflect many of God's perfections, but they do not have the potential to rise to the dignity of man. If animals possess the faculty to know, love, and serve God, if they have immortal souls like ours, then our entire way of treating animals is wrong. We should not eat them. We should not use them as farm animals. We should not even turn them into our "pets". Instead of feeling free to sterilize them, maybe we should evangelize them and try to get them in to church where they can be happiest, worshipping the God they love? But everything in my experience tells me that even my most beloved pets, my dearest kitty, lives by instinct and not intellect. I am greatly attached to her for multiple reasons, but I can not think my Mina has free will. It does not make any sense. I could more easily wish that she were human, than that I could my believe my beautiful black and white kitty has the capacity, as a cat, to appreciate the presence of God. I am not against loving our animals, I am in favor of it. But if my theology teaches they can go to heaven, it greatly affects how I view the way they are treated by humans. If animals go to Heaven, I am afraid that most of us humans should go to Hell for the way we don't recognize their dignity in God's kingdom. “ I do not say that animals cannot dwell in the presence of God, but they cannot know Him. Heaven is knowing God, it is seeing Him. Heaven is more than merely not sinning. It is overcoming the facility to sin and choosing to love. We can love God and we can love the animals which reflect many of God's perfections, but they do not have the potential to rise to the dignity of man. ” - How can this be valid when human babies and children die and go to Heaven and yet in many cases have little to no knowledge of God or the ability to chose God and his way? In this case, babies and children have a similar situation as animals, yet in your view point, animals don’t go to Heaven. You point failed to show that actually.“ If animals possess the faculty to know, love, and serve God, if they have immortal souls like ours, then our entire way of treating animals is wrong. We should not eat them. We should not use them as farm animals. We should not even turn them into our "pets. Instead of feeling free to sterilize them, maybe we should evangelize them and try to get them in to church where they can be happiest, worshipping the God they love? ” - Where is it written in the Bible or any other valid place that the used and controlled must be freed in order to go to Heaven? That those who are used, abused, controlled and own don’t go to Heaven? Because as you describe it with animals, people have been used, abused, controlled and own ( as in slaves ) and yet have gone to Heaven. Again, like with the animal statement above, your remarks don not prove anything and in comparison, actually prove your thoughts incorrect. “ But everything in my experience tells me that even my most beloved pets, my dearest kitty, lives by instinct and not intellect. I am greatly attached to her for multiple reasons, but I can not think my Mina has free will. It does not make any sense. ” - Not true. Animals do function beyond instinct and use intellect just like people do. We act using both instinct and intellect and when looking at animals, it clearly can be seen they do it too.“ But if my theology teaches they can go to heaven, it greatly affects how I view the way they are treated by humans. If animals go to Heaven, I am afraid that most of us humans should go to Hell for the way we don't recognize their dignity in God's kingdom. ” - This is also not true. There is scripture that clearly states that we only get judged on what we know and not punished for what we don’t know. If we don’t know how we are treating animals ( as in ownership and for food ) is wrong, than we are in ignorance and as scriptures say, not judged on that. Plus there is a lot of scripture that shows us in good will and faith using animals for work and food and yet no one is going to hell. Your point here can be disprove by Bible scripture.You spoke of your theology. Interesting because theology isn’t the something as actual faith. Link to comment
LOSTONE Posted January 17, 2015 Author Share Posted January 17, 2015 I sure hope that mosquitoes and cockroaches and Black Widow spiders are not all going to be resurrected. Having said that, I have a dog or two that would make a wonderful companion. Joseph Smith reportedly said he wanted his favorite horse to be with him in the world to come. Well... maybe this depends how well you keep your place in Heaven clean or not.... Link to comment
LOSTONE Posted January 17, 2015 Author Share Posted January 17, 2015 P.S... Where odes it say that animals have no souls? I have never once read anything that says or implies that animals have no souls. If there is no faith base written statement saying they don't, how can we say with such assumption that they don't and label that view as correctly stated? Link to comment
Garden Girl Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 But everything in my experience tells me that even my most beloved pets, my dearest kitty, lives by instinct and not intellect. I am greatly attached to her for multiple reasons, but I can not think my Mina has free will. It does not make any sense. I could more easily wish that she were human, than that I could my believe my beautiful black and white kitty has the capacity, as a cat, to appreciate the presence of God. I am not against loving our animals, I am in favor of it. But if my theology teaches they can go to heaven, it greatly affects how I view the way they are treated by humans. Hello 3DOP...Hope this finds you well, and that you and your family had a wonderful holiday...I'm afraid I disagree with you... particularly in regard to my beautiful black and white kitty... Bob is a big, beautiful and oh so smart kitty. Smart that goes beyond what we would term "instinct." I believe animals have different levels of intelligence depending upon the species, i.e., cats and dogs are more intelligent than chickens for instance, though even chickens can be trained to do tricks, etc. When you live one on one with an animal, particularly a dog or cat, and particularly if that cat, for instance, is strictly indoor, you can develop a relationship that is very close and observe their behavior and their emotions... yes, emotions. Bob communicates with and to me in very specific ways, including genuine affection. It would take too much time and space to give examples here... all I know is that when I look into his eyes as he is "talking" to me when he wants something or when he is being affectionate toward me, there's something there a lot deeper than just instinct. How do we know the true purpose of the animal kingdom or how closely that kingdom will interact with ours beyone the veil? How can you say what God has in store for the animals? Bob is here with me now, lying between the keyboard and the monitor, his paws on the screen. When I finish typing and it's a blue screen, I move the cursor quickly to the side off screen and he knows I'm finished and jumps up ready to go into the other room. When I'm talking on the phone to my sister, he recognizes when I'm going to hang up because of the words "good bye" and he jumps up and meows. (He doesn't like it when I talk on the phone and he opens the cupboard doors to get attention, etc.) He understands words and phrases, like when I go Bye-Bye, etc. etc etc. A hundred little quirks and "ways" that speak of intelligence vs instinct... like when I'm sitting in my big chair and he wants to sleep in it, he'll jump on the arm and stand very still while pawing at my arm until I give in and move to the couch and then he gets into the chair and curls up for a good nap. We move through the days in such a way that is so much more than instinct... GG Link to comment
Deborah Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 (edited) All living things that meet the measure of their creation will be resurrected in the degree of glory that measure is meant for. That's why I believe mosquitos and other pests go to the Telestial and beloved pets to the Celestial. Certainly not doctrinal but it makes sense. Edited January 17, 2015 by Deborah Link to comment
strappinglad Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Most of us have no problem with dogs and cats and horses and birds being in Heaven. The conundrum arrives when we consider insects and bacteria and viruses. A human body has many more bacteria in and on it than it has cells. Trillions of them. To quote Strappinglad 3:7 ," Behold, there are many kingdoms and within those kingdoms can be found all forms of life, each form endowed with a breath of life given by God. All things were created spiritually before they were created physically, hence there are spiritual mosquitos and sponges and bacteria. " The plant and animal kingdoms are not under the same covenant obligations as man. There is a form of salvation awaiting them all. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. 2 Link to comment
LOSTONE Posted January 17, 2015 Author Share Posted January 17, 2015 Most of us have no problem with dogs and cats and horses and birds being in Heaven. The conundrum arrives when we consider insects and bacteria and viruses. A human body has many more bacteria in and on it than it has cells. Trillions of them.To quote Strappinglad 3:7 ," Behold, there are many kingdoms and within those kingdoms can be found all forms of life, each form endowed with a breath of life given by God. All things were created spiritually before they were created physically, hence there are spiritual mosquitos and sponges and bacteria. "The plant and animal kingdoms are not under the same covenant obligations as man. There is a form of salvation awaiting them all.That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Wow.... Now this is thought provoking. What life forms do go to Heaven or at least have that possibility? All life forms including insects and bacteria or just people and animals? Very good thought to think of.... Link to comment
LOSTONE Posted January 17, 2015 Author Share Posted January 17, 2015 P.S ... If roaches go... I so hope there is a segregation from them. They so creep me out. Link to comment
The Nehor Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 I remember arguing with my dad that if everything has a spirit and is supposed to live to its fullest that making me mow the lawn was cutting the life of the grass short. I still had to mow the lawn. Link to comment
JLHPROF Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Personally I don't believe animals can dwell in heaven. It makes me a little sad, but that's what I believe. However, I still believe they will receive the measure of their creation, that if we as higher beings wish to visit with them as lower beings that we will be able to. So I don't believe we will be separated from them. But no, I don't believe in Celestial animals. Link to comment
3DOP Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 (edited) Would Christ have died for an animal? Would He have come down from Heaven as a dog or cat to redeem them? Is not this an essential aspect of our love of God? We love Him who first loved us? You say they didn't need redeemed? Of course not. They lack the ability to sin and they lack the ability to discern and love God. Can we please God without faith? No. Can an animal have faith in God? No. God doesn't expect to be pleased by faith from animals. They don't have the capacity. Can an animal love God? I am not trying to minimize the beauty and goodness of our healthy relationships with our pets. But there are privileges available and potential given unto those "made in the image of God", which is not given to the rest of creation. There might be animals in the physical vicinity of heaven, but resurrected animals? On what basis would God exclude an animal? They are sinless. Someone already suggested the obvious. Why limit it to pets? What about bugs? It isn't the geography but the appreciation and love of God that constitutes the meaningfulness of Heaven. Mere sinlessness is not enough to be able to love God in Heaven. A lizard is sinless. So what? So is a grain of sand. That doesn't mean it goes to Heaven. In my opinion, we can only suggest that our pets, with their limitations, can go to Heaven by lowering the meaning of what it means to be exalted by God as one of His children. Can an animal be a "child of God"? All of Creation including our beloved pets give glory to God, but each in their own way, according to their own capacities. Edited January 19, 2015 by 3DOP Link to comment
strappinglad Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 (edited) I just re-read Genesis 1 and 2 with attention to Genesis 2:5 . What is implied by that verse? 3DOP , you can compare from the Pearl of Great Price Moses 3:5 As far as loving the Lord ,God said ," if ye love me, keep my commandments . " Well, for the most part I think plants and animals fulfill the measure of their creation and are following the Lord's command. Only man seems to have that rebellious streak. Edited January 19, 2015 by strappinglad Link to comment
LOSTONE Posted January 19, 2015 Author Share Posted January 19, 2015 I just re-read Genesis 1 and 2 with attention to Genesis 2:5 . What is implied by that verse?3DOP , you can compare from the Pearl of Great Price Moses 3:5As far as loving the Lord ,God said ," if ye love me, keep my commandments . " Well, for the most part I think plants and animals fulfill the measure of their creation and are following the Lord's command. Only man seems to have that rebellious streak. Ok... What does your response have to do with the subject of this post? Please clarify? Thanks. Link to comment
3DOP Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 I can debate this further in Social Hall if you insist...but maybe we should let it go? You love your pets. Very good. I was offering reasons why I and others who also love our pets might doubt that they have the capacity to experience the joys of heaven. If you find that I am offering nothing worth consideration that's okay. I am not saying that Fido goes to Hell. In fact, I would say that Fido can't go to Hell for the same reasons he can't go to Heaven. You say that Fido can go to Heaven. So...are there animals in Hell according to your way of thinking, or can animals only go to Heaven? (It's starting to look like being an animal is a far better way to go. Heaven with God guaranteed forever. Eternal security with or without faith? Who wouldn't rather be a mouse or a turkey than some poor human who has to persevere in faith if they want to be resurrected unto the bliss of eternal life?) Link to comment
strappinglad Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Debate ended. Everyone have a great sleep . Link to comment
LOSTONE Posted January 19, 2015 Author Share Posted January 19, 2015 Debate ended. Everyone have a great sleep . You don’t have the authority to end the debate on this post. If anyone wishes to continue to express their opinion and debate it., they are welcome to.As to you additional replies, I still disagree with you on the basis I see no factual evidence to confirm your view as correct. Link to comment
strappinglad Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 You don’t have the authority to end the debate on this post. If anyone wishes to continue to express their opinion and debate it., they are welcome to. As to you additional replies, I still disagree with you on the basis I see no factual evidence to confirm your view as correct.My post was simply ending my part in what was becoming a debate between me and 3DOP. Board rules do not allow for debate in the social hall, that is reserved for General discussions. You are free to keep posting as it is your thread. 2 Link to comment
LOSTONE Posted January 19, 2015 Author Share Posted January 19, 2015 My post was simply ending my part in what was becoming a debate between me and 3DOP. Board rules do not allow for debate in the social hall, that is reserved for General discussions. You are free to keep posting as it is your thread. My apologies for misunderstand your post and for my reply to it. Link to comment
3DOP Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 My apologies for misunderstand your post and for my reply to it. Yeah LostOne. I was glad for strappinglad to suggest we shut it down. Anyway, I won't be upset if you guys are right. I apologize for being too aggressive about it. Link to comment
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