Far West Mo Temple Commandment (Or Prophecy) Retracted?

[mass168]

Was the commanded/prophesied temple spoken of in D&C 115 retracted anywhere in scripture? I know some people try to apply D&C 124:51 as an answer. To my understanding though, Far West was not in Jackson County at the time in question?

[JLHPROF]

Was the commanded/prophesied temple spoken of in D&C 115 retracted anywhere in scripture? I know some people try to apply D&C 124:51 as an answer. To my understanding though, Far West was not in Jackson County at the time in question?

 

No, I don't believe a Far West Temple (D&C 115) was revoked anywhere in scripture.  It was to be located in Caldwell County, Missouri and will likely be built at some time in the future.

 

Likewise the lesser known Adam-Ondi-Ahman Temple in Davies County, Missouri will probably also be built in the future.

 

D&C 124:51 does not refer to that temple as you correctly point out.  It refers to a temple in Jackson County, Missouri as revealed in D&C 57 -

"And thus saith the Lord your God, if you will receive wisdom here is wisdom. Behold, the place which is now called Independence is the center place; and a spot for the temple is lying westward, upon a lot which is not far from the courthouse."

 

I wouldn't worry about any temples that were revealed that have yet to be built.  We built 3 other temples while spending 40 years trying to complete the Salt Lake Temple.  The Nauvoo Temple was burned to the ground and it took 152 years till we got around to rebuilding that commanded temple.  Sometimes the course of things doesn't run smoothly.

These three will eventually be completed if it is what God wanted.

[mass168]

No, I don't believe a Far West Temple (D&C 115) was revoked anywhere in scripture.  It was to be located in Caldwell County, Missouri and will likely be built at some time in the future.

 

Likewise the lesser known Adam-Ondi-Ahman Temple in Davies County, Missouri will probably also be built in the future.

 

D&C 124:51 does not refer to that temple as you correctly point out.  It refers to a temple in Jackson County, Missouri as revealed in D&C 57 -

"And thus saith the Lord your God, if you will receive wisdom here is wisdom. Behold, the place which is now called Independence is the center place; and a spot for the temple is lying westward, upon a lot which is not far from the courthouse."

 

I wouldn't worry about any temples that were revealed that have yet to be built.  We built 3 other temples while spending 40 years trying to complete the Salt Lake Temple.  The Nauvoo Temple was burned to the ground and it took 152 years till we got around to rebuilding that commanded temple.  Sometimes the course of things doesn't run smoothly.

These three will eventually be completed if it is what God wanted.

I agree they will be built if that is God's will. I wonder about this temple still because if you look at the timeline given in D&C 115, it is very specific. It seems to point to this temple being finished very soon after 1840. It calls for a focus on this temple "until there shall not anything remain that is not finished." 

Edited January 3, 2015 by mass168

[JLHPROF]

I agree they will be built if that is God's will. I wonder about this temple still because if you look at the timeline given in D&C 115, it is very specific. It seems to point to this temple being finished very soon after 1840. It calls for a focus on this temple "until there shall not anything remain that is not finished." 

 

 

 

Well, D&C 124:51 seems to imply that the commandment to build a temple CAN be revoked when the saints were hindered.  It may not be in scripture, but perhaps that commanded temple was also revoked.  Not every temple has a canonized revelation to build it, and not every temple need have a canonized revocation when the saints were hindered against building it.

 

"Therefore, for this cause have I accepted the offerings of those whom I commanded to build up a city and a house unto my name, in Jackson county, Missouri, and were hindered by their enemies, saith the Lord your God."

[mass168]

Well, D&C 124:51 seems to imply that the commandment to build a temple CAN be revoked when the saints were hindered.  It may not be in scripture, but perhaps that commanded temple was also revoked.  Not every temple has a canonized revelation to build it, and not every temple need have a canonized revocation when the saints were hindered against building it.

 

"Therefore, for this cause have I accepted the offerings of those whom I commanded to build up a city and a house unto my name, in Jackson county, Missouri, and were hindered by their enemies, saith the Lord your God."

I suppose I see your argument in general. That perhaps the revocation in D&C 124 was meant to be a more general statement about prophecies/commandments. It becomes a interesting argument to make though if you think about which temple 124:51 actually applied to. According to most discussion I have heard, it applies to the Independence MO temple, which did not have a specific timeline, simply that in would be built in the "generation," whatever that means. Why then do we have a revocation of a temple which had no timeline attached, and no revocation in the case of one that had a specific timeline, yet was not completed? 

[JLHPROF]

 Why then do we have a revocation of a temple which had no timeline attached, and no revocation in the case of one that had a specific timeline, yet was not completed? 

 

Ask the Lord.  His ways are not our ways.  Maybe he'll reveal it to you if you sincerely want to know.  As I said, not every temple built has a written revelation and not every temple prevented from being built has a written revocation.  Only God knows why one and not the other.

Edited January 3, 2015 by JLHPROF

[mass168]

Ask the Lord.  His ways are not our ways.  Maybe he'll reveal it to you if you sincerely want to know.  As I said, not every temple built has a written revelation and not every temple prevented from being built has a written revocation.  Only God knows why one and not the other.

I feel like I sincerely want to know. I also feel like God is telling me that when a prophet says something will happen in a very specific time, it should happen, regardless of persecution.

Edited January 3, 2015 by mass168

[JLHPROF]

I feel like I sincerely want to know. I also feel like God is telling me that when a prophet says something will happen in a very specific time, it should happen, regardless of persecution.

 

Funny, I don't see a timeline for anything beyond the cornerstones/foundation.

For everything else:

"Thus let them from that time forth labor diligently until it shall be finished, from the cornerstone thereof unto the top thereof, until there shall not anything remain that is not finished."

 

and to who is he speaking?

 

"Let the city, Far West, be a holy and consecrated land unto me; and it shall be called most holy, for the ground upon which thou standest is holy.

Therefore, I command you to build a house unto me, for the gathering together of my saints, that they may worship me."

 

To the saints who are gathered at the city of Far West.  Since there are no more saints gathered at Far West and no more city of Far West I think the timeline is waiting for saints to gather there again.

Have you been to Far West?  I have...here's a view of the homes of the saints gathered there...oh, wait?

[mass168]

The timeline I'm referring to, all references to D&C 115:

 

Chapter Header: Revelation given April 26, 1838

 

Verses 9-10: "And let the beginning be made on the fourth day of July next" - Translates to 4 Jul 1839.

 

Verse 11-12:  "And in one year from this day let them re-commence laying the foundation of my house. "  "Thus let them from that time forth labor diligently until it shall be finished, from the cornerstone thereof unto the top thereof, until there shall not anything remain that is not finished." - Translates to work on the temple that shouldn't have stopped until completed, commencing on 4 Jul 1840. 

 

Hence, my estimate that the temple should have been completed not too long after 1840, if they focused on it as described in this chapter. 

[mass168]

" I have...here's a view of the homes of the saints gathered there...oh, wait?"

 

I have not been there, but I have seen enough to realize it is a ghost town. That only enhances the problem in my mind. 

[JLHPROF]

The timeline I'm referring to, all references to D&C 115:

 

Chapter Header: Revelation given April 26, 1838

 

Verses 9-10: "And let the beginning be made on the fourth day of July next" - Translates to 4 Jul 1839.

 

Verse 11-12:  "And in one year from this day let them re-commence laying the foundation of my house. "  "Thus let them from that time forth labor diligently until it shall be finished, from the cornerstone thereof unto the top thereof, until there shall not anything remain that is not finished." - Translates to work on the temple that shouldn't have stopped until completed, commencing on 4 Jul 1840. 

 

Hence, my estimate that the temple should have been completed not too long after 1840, if they focused on it as described in this chapter. 

 

No, the only command is that in one year they should start.  And they did.  There is no timeframe to finish.  Oh and you should check your dates.  Then the saints living in Far West were commanded to labor until it was complete.  Unfortunately by that time there were exactly no saints living in Far West so nobody to whom the command immediately applied.

Unless the mob that remained and ruined the city were supposed to finish it...see the commandment applies to those gathered at Far West.  One year after that commandment there weren't any saints gathered at Far West.  They had been driven from the state.

The commandment (not a prophecy BTW) no longer applied to anyone.

Edited January 3, 2015 by JLHPROF

[mass168]

No, the only command is that in one year they should start.  And they did.  There is no timeframe to finish.  Oh and you should check your dates.  Then the saints living in Far West were commanded to labor until it was complete.  Unfortunately by that time there were exactly no saints living in Far West so nobody to whom the command immediately applied.

Unless the mob that remained and ruined the city were supposed to finish it...see the commandment applies to those gathered at Far West.  One year after that commandment there weren't any saints gathered at Far West.  They had been driven from the state.

The commandment (not a prophecy BTW) no longer applied to anyone.

So, God gave the command to finish the work to nobody? That's your understanding of it? 

Edited January 3, 2015 by mass168

[mass168]

No, the only command is that in one year they should start.  And they did.  There is no timeframe to finish.  Oh and you should check your dates.  Then the saints living in Far West were commanded to labor until it was complete.  Unfortunately by that time there were exactly no saints living in Far West so nobody to whom the command immediately applied.

Unless the mob that remained and ruined the city were supposed to finish it...see the commandment applies to those gathered at Far West.  One year after that commandment there weren't any saints gathered at Far West.  They had been driven from the state.

The commandment (not a prophecy BTW) no longer applied to anyone.

Why should I check my dates? Where did I fat finger? 

[intra]

Ask the Lord.  His ways are not our ways.  

amen! and He says: 

And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 

And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

(Revelation 21:22-23) 

Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 

And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 

In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

(Ephesians 2:19-22) 

 

If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.

To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture,

Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

(1 Peter 2:3- 

here three witnesses, even three apostles called by Jesus Christ directly, testify that all we who put our trust in Him are become His temple, and for this no temple is in the city of the new Jerusalem, because the Lamb is its temple. 

and so is the witness of the Lamb: 

Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh,

when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

(John 4:21) 

but those in the flesh mind the things of the flesh. 

[intra]

He said "on this rock i will build my church" 

and they took a seer-stone, and by their sorceries thought to build another. 

MO however remains a barren woman; the life was not found in them. 

no other foundation is laid but Jesus Christ, amen! 
 

[JLHPROF]

He said "on this rock i will build my church"

 

Ironic that this actually refers to revelation (not Peter) but most Christian denominations reject continuing doctrinal revelation with their closed canon.

[JLHPROF]

amen! and He says: 

And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 

And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

(Revelation 21:22-23) 

Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 

And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 

In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

(Ephesians 2:19-22) 

 

If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.

To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture,

Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

(1 Peter 2:3-  

here three witnesses, even three apostles called by Jesus Christ directly, testify that all we who put our trust in Him are become His temple, and for this no temple is in the city of the new Jerusalem, because the Lamb is its temple. 

and so is the witness of the Lamb: 

Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh,

when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

(John 4:21) 

but those in the flesh mind the things of the flesh. 

 

Correct.  When the entire city is a temple society and Christ is present there will be no need for a separate temple.  That has always been the goal of a Zion society - to bring the temple experience to everyday life.

But the idea that temples aren't necessary is completely unbiblical.  Even Christ called the temple his Father's house and spent much of his time teaching, studying and praying there.

Edited January 3, 2015 by JLHPROF

[intra]

Ironic that this actually refers to revelation (not Peter) but most Christian denominations reject continuing doctrinal revelation with their closed canon.

 

 

you are right that it is not Peter that is the foundation of the Lamb's church. 

but one great foundation and one great revelation of the grace and glory of the Father: Jesus Christ

[intra]

Even Christ called the temple his Father's house and spent much of his time teaching, studying and praying there.

and said not one stone would be left upon another. 

and said if "this temple" would be torn down in three days He would raise it back up. 

and then went to the cross to die for you. 

and then rose from the grave so you could have life. 

and then ascended to sit at the right hand of the Father, preparing a place for you, and setting you up in heavenly places. 

and in 70 AD the temple in Jerusalem was razed and cast down. 

and for all the centuries since, has the Father had no house? 

[JLHPROF]

you are right that it is not Peter that is the foundation of the Lamb's church. 

but one great foundation and one great revelation of the grace and glory of the Father: Jesus Christ

 

Matthew 16

¹⁷ And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

¹⁸ And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

¹⁹ And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

 

Peter knew Christ's calling by revelation and this is the rock upon which the Church was to operate.  And as a tool to achieve this goal Peter was given priesthood authority to bind/seal on earth AND in heaven.  BInding, as in I Corinth 7:27&39, Romans 7:2, Matthew 19:6, Eph 5:31, Mark 10:9.

On earth AND in heaven.

[JLHPROF]

and in 70 AD the temple in Jerusalem was razed and cast down. 

and for all the centuries since, has the Father had no house? 

 

Until 1836.  Praise to the restoration of the gospel of Christ!

[mass168]

No, the only command is that in one year they should start.  And they did.  There is no timeframe to finish.  Oh and you should check your dates.  Then the saints living in Far West were commanded to labor until it was complete.  Unfortunately by that time there were exactly no saints living in Far West so nobody to whom the command immediately applied.

Unless the mob that remained and ruined the city were supposed to finish it...see the commandment applies to those gathered at Far West.  One year after that commandment there weren't any saints gathered at Far West.  They had been driven from the state.

The commandment (not a prophecy BTW) no longer applied to anyone.

I would still like to hear why you assert I got my dates wrong if you have time. To me, verses 11-12 seem to say that continuous work should have begun on this temple 4 Jul 1840, and should have never ceased until it was completed.  

[JLHPROF]

I would still like to hear why you assert I got my dates wrong if you have time. To me, verses 11-12 seem to say that continuous work should have begun on this temple 4 Jul 1840, and should have never ceased until it was completed.  

 

My apologies, I misread your response dates.  Yes, the work on the temple was to have started in July of 1840.

 

And verse 8 & 17 said it was to be for the gathering of the saints.  Well by July of 1840 there were exactly 0 saints gathered to Far West.  Nobody gathered, no temple required.  God wanted the temple for the saints in Far West to gather to.  Once there were no saints in Far West that was the end of that.

If God had wanted this temple built in 1840 he would have intervened in the Saints being driven out in the winter of 1839 so there was someone left to build one.  Let's have a little common sense.

[mass168]

My apologies, I misread your response dates.  Yes, the work on the temple was to have started in July of 1840.

 

And verse 8 & 17 said it was to be for the gathering of the saints.  Well by July of 1840 there were exactly 0 saints gathered to Far West.  Nobody gathered, no temple required.  God wanted the temple for the saints in Far West to gather to.  Once there were no saints in Far West that was the end of that.

If God had wanted this temple built in 1840 he would have intervened in the Saints being driven out in the winter of 1839 so there was someone left to build one.  Let's have a little common sense.

Thanks for the clarification. My common sense says that God would not give a command for them to build one if he knew no one was going to be there. 

Edited January 5, 2015 by mass168

[Danzo]

Thanks for the clarification. My common sense says that God would not give a command for them to build one if he knew no one was going to be there.

Interesting,

I don't quite follow. Why do you think that commandments can only be given if they are going to be obeyed?

Is there no freedom given to us?