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Being And Becoming A "well Read Member


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It is not uncommon for members of the Church to accuse others of not reading enough to learn both sides of the story regarding events of early Church members.

 

Prior to the Gospel Topic essays, what could have a member have read to gain a balanced insight into the plural marriages of Joseph Smith?  Brian Hales volumes on Joseph Smith are not even 2 years old. 

 

Prior to the Gospel Topic essays and without encountering what would deemed "anti-Mormon" materials, what Church materials should should have caused an average member to realize Joseph Smith was a polygamist?

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It is not uncommon for members of the Church to accuse others of not reading enough to learn both sides of the story regarding events of early Church members.

 

Prior to the Gospel Topic essays, what could have a member have read to gain a balanced insight into the plural marriages of Joseph Smith?  Brian Hales volumes on Joseph Smith are not even 2 years old. 

 

Prior to the Gospel Topic essays and without encountering what would deemed "anti-Mormon" materials, what Church materials should should have caused an average member to realize Joseph Smith was a polygamist?

What should have Newton read to come to Einstein's conclusions?   Pointless exercise in presentism

Edited by mfbukowski
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What should have Newton read to come to Einstein's conclusions?   Pointless exercise in presentism

 

 

If being a "well read member" means that the member would know of Joseph Smiths polygamy, then what could that person have read? Stay on topic or show some respect and refrain from derailing this discussion.

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If being a "well read member" means that the member would know of Joseph Smiths polygamy, then what could that person have read? Stay on topic or show some respect and refrain from derailing this discussion.

You are missing the point, and my comment was indeed on point.

 

Being "well read" does not include knowing what is not available to be known.  Newton, though "well read"  in the physics of his time, obviously could not have known of future developments in physics which eventually led to Einstein's conclusions.

 

A few years ago, a "well read" member would not have known about Joseph's polygamy, because it was not generally known.  Further scholarship has now made it well known, so now a well-read member would have some acquaintance with those stories.

 

The entire purpose of the thread is obviously argumentative and poses a question designed to cause pointless controversy, the underlying assumption is that the church was "hiding" something.

 

If that is what you are saying then come out and say it.  It has been said before and is a tired old point which has been discussed forever.

 

The point is simply that IF the church was hiding the information, IT IS NO LONGER DOING SO.

 

There is no more to discuss

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Some books that come to mind:

  • Joseph Smith: The First Mormon (1977)
  • Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith (1984; 2nd ed.,1994)
  • In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith (1997)
  • Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling (2005)

Those books are for "balanced insight." The mere fact of Joseph's polygamy has been discussed in numerous books and articles (including church manuals and magazines).

Obviously Hales is a "well-read" member and indeed found what is available for his books.

 

So it all depends on what "well-read" means.  And you yourself have found those sources. 

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It is not uncommon for members of the Church to accuse others of not reading enough to learn both sides of the story regarding events of early Church members.

 

Prior to the Gospel Topic essays, what could have a member have read to gain a balanced insight into the plural marriages of Joseph Smith?  Brian Hales volumes on Joseph Smith are not even 2 years old. 

 

Prior to the Gospel Topic essays and without encountering what would deemed "anti-Mormon" materials, what Church materials should should have caused an average member to realize Joseph Smith was a polygamist?

 

I think the earliest books would be "Mormon Enigma" (1984) and Van Wagoner's "Mormon Polygamy" (1989).  Before that, Fawn Brodie's "No Man Knows My History", but few faithful members would read that.  Maybe articles in Sunstone and Dialogue over the years?  Obviously Compton's "In Sacred Loneliness" (1997), but I think that book was may have been viewed negatively by more conservative people in the Church.

Edited by cinepro
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You are missing the point, and my comment was indeed on point.

 

Being "well read" does not include knowing what is not available to be known.  Newton, though "well read"  in the physics of his time, obviously could not have known of future developments in physics which eventually led to Einstein's conclusions.

 

A few years ago, a "well read" member would not have known about Joseph's polygamy, because it was not generally known.  Further scholarship has now made it well known, so now a well-read member would have some acquaintance with those stories.

 

 

Sorry for the misunderstanding, your posting history against me has been very unkind, and I see based on the remainder of your post, I am justified in continuing to question your intentions

 

Moreso, my lack of mind failed me with your first post.

 

The entire purpose of the thread is obviously argumentative and poses a question designed to cause pointless controversy, the underlying assumption is that the church was "hiding" something.

 

If that is what you are saying then come out and say it.  It has been said before and is a tired old point which has been discussed forever.

 

The point is simply that IF the church was hiding the information, IT IS NO LONGER DOING SO.

 

There is no more to discuss

 

Mind read much, can you teach me how to mind read?  

 

I have not accused the Churhc of anything. I asked what sources would make a member "well read" and thus informed on Joseph Smith's polygamy.

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It is not uncommon for members of the Church to accuse others of not reading enough to learn both sides of the story regarding events of early Church members.

 

Prior to the Gospel Topic essays, what could have a member have read to gain a balanced insight into the plural marriages of Joseph Smith?  Brian Hales volumes on Joseph Smith are not even 2 years old. 

 

Prior to the Gospel Topic essays and without encountering what would deemed "anti-Mormon" materials, what Church materials should should have caused an average member to realize Joseph Smith was a polygamist?

 

Common gossip has been around forever and if one had listened one would have known that Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were polygamists and  that Mormon men had horns and more than one wife.

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Some books that come to mind:

  • Joseph Smith: The First Mormon (1977)
  • Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith (1984; 2nd ed.,1994)
  • In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith (1997)
  • Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling (2005)

Those books are for "balanced insight."

 

Would any of those books be considered "anti-Mormon". I found a "SHIELDS" review of Comptons work and it was not favorable. What do you think the general perception of each book listed was?

 

The mere fact of Joseph's polygamy has been discussed in numerous books and articles (including church manuals and magazines).

 

Can you provide links? I search lds.org again, and see what I can come up with.

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Common gossip has been around forever and if one had listened one would have known that Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were polygamists and  that Mormon men had horns and more than one wife.

 

True, gossip has been around. Gossip in regard to polygamy was mention is a Ensign article in the 70's.  But given the gossip, and if I may assume that the gossip would have been brought up by critics, why would a member beleive the gossip if the source was a critic?  If the gossip was a member, where could the hearing turn to - other than prayer - to learn about Joseph Smith polygamy?

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Prior to the Gospel Topic essays and without encountering what would deemed "anti-Mormon" materials, what Church materials should should have caused an average member to realize Joseph Smith was a polygamist?

 

Mormon Polygamy: A History  by Richard S. VanWagoner (1st ed 1986/ 2nd ed 1989).

 

It covers everything you need on polygamy, including polyandry.  It's completely readable, any member would have no difficulty with it.  It's comprehensive - 1830's & Fanny Alger all the way up through the 2nd Manifesto and Fundamentalism.

 

This book was never deemed "anti" and the author died a member in good standing.

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True, gossip has been around. Gossip in regard to polygamy was mention is a Ensign article in the 70's.  But given the gossip, and if I may assume that the gossip would have been brought up by critics, why would a member beleive the gossip if the source was a critic?  If the gossip was a member, where could the hearing turn to - other than prayer - to learn about Joseph Smith polygamy?

 

 

I only mention it as one source by which one could know of these things.  I would certainly take it (and did take it) with some skepticism.  The same with the above mentioned books.  I am one who sorts this information by using the scriptures, meditation and prayer.

Edited by ERayR
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Would any of those books be considered "anti-Mormon". I found a "SHIELDS" review of Comptons work and it was not favorable. What do you think the general perception of each book listed was?

 

All the books I listed were written by practicing Mormons and are not remotely "anti-Mormon" (with the possible exception of Compton's volume, they've all been carried by Deseret Book). But any book that treats Joseph's "human side" (as all of those books do) is going to be viewed by a large segment of the membership as potentially damaging to faith and therefore best avoided. I'd be surprised if there are ten people in my ward who've read any of them.

 

As for links to pre-2014 Church materials discussing Joseph Smith's polygamy, here are a few:

 

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You are missing the point, and my comment was indeed on point.

 

Being "well read" does not include knowing what is not available to be known.  Newton, though "well read"  in the physics of his time, obviously could not have known of future developments in physics which eventually led to Einstein's conclusions.

 

A few years ago, a "well read" member would not have known about Joseph's polygamy, because it was not generally known.  Further scholarship has now made it well known, so now a well-read member would have some acquaintance with those stories.

 

The entire purpose of the thread is obviously argumentative and poses a question designed to cause pointless controversy, the underlying assumption is that the church was "hiding" something.

 

If that is what you are saying then come out and say it.  It has been said before and is a tired old point which has been discussed forever.

 

The point is simply that IF the church was hiding the information, IT IS NO LONGER DOING SO.

 

There is no more to discuss

 

So I think your response to the opening post was expectionaly uncharitable.

 

The LDS essays on the topic of polygamy, esspecially JS polygamy expressly state that well read members of the faith have known about his practice (also seems ot suggest for a long time).

 

It seems a reasonable question to ask, well if that is the case what are these books that they were reading.

 

My understanding is that prior to this there were no accessible books on the subject. Mormon Enigma also came out with very heavy and overt stigma.

 

Since then there have been a few more books but Bushman's Rough Stone Rolling is the first one that was released and not immediately considered Anti-mormon in tone.

Edited by Bikeemikey
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If being a "well read member" means that the member would know of Joseph Smiths polygamy, then what could that person have read? Stay on topic or show some respect and refrain from derailing this discussion.

 

The Bible, The Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants are good places to start. You should also read Jeff Lindsay's LDS FAQ. From there you can go into all the history you want. But do keep in mind that our western mindset won't be much of a help with the middle eastern mindset.

 

Ps; I've been a member for 43 years. If someone doesn't know about LDS polygamy I really don't know what to tell them other than to start reading.

Edited by thesometimesaint
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Mormon Polygamy: A History  by Richard S. VanWagoner (1st ed 1986/ 2nd ed 1989).

 

This book was never deemed "anti" and the author died a member in good standing.

 

His obituary mentioned that his funeral was being held in an LDS meetinghouse so maybe you're right. I've never gotten the impression from any of his writings that he was a believer but maybe he just hid it well. In any case, I agree that Mormon Polygamy is not anti-Mormon. I didn't include it on my list because I consider it to be in the same category as George D. Smith's Nauvoo Polygamy—some good information there but not as balanced or accurate as one might hope. But maybe I'm being unfair. I'll have to take another look at it.

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His obituary mentioned that his funeral was being held in an LDS meetinghouse so maybe you're right. I've never gotten the impression from any of his writings that he was a believer but maybe he just hid it well. In any case, I agree that Mormon Polygamy is not anti-Mormon. I didn't include it on my list because I consider it to be in the same category as George D. Smith's Nauvoo Polygamy—some good information there but not as balanced or accurate as one might hope. But maybe I'm being unfair. I'll have to take another look at it.

 

I agree that it isn't comprehensive like Hales.  But if someone was just starting out and wanted the basic history of Mormon polygamy from Fanny Alger to the 1930's and beyond,  I can't think of an overview book I'd recommend more.

 

It has its flaws academically, but it is written with more general accessibility than most others.  Most people who want a basic understanding of Mormon polygamy's history aren't going to read through 3 volumes of Hales, or read all of Compton, Bushman and Hardy just to cover Joseph's period.  Vanwagoner is the starting point for info, and I consider it much more balanced than George D. Smith (who couldn't make it past a couple of pages without a negative opinion appearing).

 

Also, it's been around 30 years so it fits more with the OP than things published in the last couple.

Edited by JLHPROF
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Prior to the Gospel Topic essays and without encountering what would deemed "anti-Mormon" materials, what Church materials should should have caused an average member to realize Joseph Smith was a polygamist?

Family Search....the geneology library - that's how I found out 22 years ago

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Family Search....the geneology library - that's how I found out 22 years ago

 

My Dad showed me the same thing when I was a teenager.  He's a passionate genealogist and he wanted to show me the families of some famous people to keep my interest.

We looked at most of the prophets of the Church and I saw Joseph Smith's huge list of spouses.  And then Brigham's, John's, Wilford's, Lorenzo's, Joseph F.'s, Heber's and even those who came after with multiple eternal sealings.  We talked about it.

It made an impression.

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All the books I listed were written by practicing Mormons and are not remotely "anti-Mormon" (with the possible exception of Compton's volume, they've all been carried by Deseret Book). But any book that treats Joseph's "human side" (as all of those books do) is going to be viewed by a large segment of the membership as potentially damaging to faith and therefore best avoided. I'd be surprised if there are ten people in my ward who've read any of them.

 

As for links to pre-2014 Church materials discussing Joseph Smith's polygamy, here are a few:

 

I think you're overstating the positive feelings that Deseret Book, and Church leaders in general, might have had towards those books.  Especially Mormon Enigma (start on page 40, with important comments from Elder Oaks on page 45).  On page 47 it notes that the author's work can never be cited in any Church publication.

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