The Rich And The Poor - Lds Statements

[MormonFreeThinker]

"Some employers are not fair to their employees; they pay them less than they should. Satan says, “Take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor” (2 Nephi 28:8 ). Taking unfair advantage is a form of dishonesty." Gospel Principles, (2011), 179–83

https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-31-honesty?lang=eng&query=employers+low+wage

 

"Being wealthy is not morally wrong. The danger, as the Book of Mormon repeatedly emphasizes, is that when people become wealthy they sometimes forget the Lord and His commandments. President Brigham Young (1801–77) said: “The worst fear that I have about [members of this Church] is that they will get rich in this country, forget God and his people, wax fat, and kick themselves out of the Church and go to hell. This people will stand mobbing, robbing, poverty, and all manner of persecution, and be true. But my greater fear for them is that they cannot stand wealth; and yet they have to be tried with riches” (quoted in Preston Nibley, Brigham Young: The Man and His Work [1936], 128)." 

https://www.lds.org/liahona/2002/04/questions-and-answers?lang=eng

 

 Elder Aleksandr N. Manzhos said, "I especially recall the testimony of one sister whose inspired face I can still see in my mind. She was a single mother. She and her one-year-old child lived in the dormitory of the factory where she worked. Economic conditions were not good" 

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2004/04/book-of-mormon-principles-spiritually-born-of-god?lang=eng

 

There are many mothers like Maria Fernandez that have 3 jobs just to survive. They do not have the time to be with their family and children, they do not have the time to teach their children. The church wants the mothers to teach their children, but some of them have to work a lot just to eat because the rich do not pay them well.  

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/friends-mourn-woman-who-died-napping-between-jobs

 

 

Question

Is it better for a mother to have 2 or 3 low paying jobs?  or one modest paying job? The church teaches that mothers need time to educate their children. 

Edited October 27, 2014 by MormonFreeThinker

[pogi]

I don't think anybody would disagree that one better paying job is better than 3 poor paying jobs.  We can't pretend to know other's circumstances and judge them for their choice of work.  I am sure that they would jump at the chance for a better paying job if it became available in their skill set. 

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Question

Is it better for a mother to have 2 or 3 low paying jobs?  or one modest paying job? The church teaches that mothers need time to educate their children. 

Those are the only 2 choices?

 

I think you should open up a business and hire a bunch of low skilled employees and pay them like 30 dollars an hour. I wonder how long you will be in business.

[MormonFreeThinker]

I don't think anybody would disagree that one better paying job is better than 3 poor paying jobs.  

 

The reality is that many LDS do not see that 

 

Those are the only 2 choices?

 

I think you should open up a business and hire a bunch of low skilled employees and pay them like 30 dollars an hour. I wonder how long you will be in business.

 

If I had millions of dollars that would be no problem, I would pay them at least 12.50 dollars an hour, not 7.25 an hour. The scriptures talk about the rich taking unfair advantage. 

 

2 Nephi 9:30 But wo unto the rich, who are rich as to the things of the world. For because they are rich they despise the poor

 

Proverbs 22:16 He that oppresseth the poor to increase his riches, and he that giveth to the rich, shall surely come to want.

NIV One who oppresses the poor to increase his wealth and one who gives gifts to the rich—both come to poverty

Edited October 27, 2014 by MormonFreeThinker

[KevinG]

It is better that the mother seek the counsel of God in the matter, and the rest is none of our business.  The only exceptions possibly could be the Bishop and Relief Society President who can help her review her finances and provide assistance from fast offerings.

 

There are as many individual situations as there are poor.  The only thing we know is that they will always be among us.

[The Nehor]

I think it is fair to say that those who oppress their employees are going to hell. I think paying ridiculously low wages counts as oppression. I have met church members who think doing so is just being thrifty and wise. They are going to hell too.

[EllenMaksoud]

"Some employers are not fair to their employees; they pay them less than they should. Satan says, “Take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor” (2 Nephi 28:8 ). Taking unfair advantage is a form of dishonesty." Gospel Principles, (2011), 179–83

https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-31-honesty?lang=eng&query=employers+low+wage

 

"Being wealthy is not morally wrong. The danger, as the Book of Mormon repeatedly emphasizes, is that when people become wealthy they sometimes forget the Lord and His commandments. President Brigham Young (1801–77) said: “The worst fear that I have about [members of this Church] is that they will get rich in this country, forget God and his people, wax fat, and kick themselves out of the Church and go to hell. This people will stand mobbing, robbing, poverty, and all manner of persecution, and be true. But my greater fear for them is that they cannot stand wealth; and yet they have to be tried with riches” (quoted in Preston Nibley, Brigham Young: The Man and His Work [1936], 128)." 

https://www.lds.org/liahona/2002/04/questions-and-answers?lang=eng

 

 Elder Aleksandr N. Manzhos said, "I especially recall the testimony of one sister whose inspired face I can still see in my mind. She was a single mother. She and her one-year-old child lived in the dormitory of the factory where she worked. Economic conditions were not good" 

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2004/04/book-of-mormon-principles-spiritually-born-of-god?lang=eng

 

There are many mothers like Maria Fernandez that have 3 jobs just to survive. They do not have the time to be with their family and children, they do not have the time to teach their children. The church wants the mothers to teach their children, but some of them have to work a lot just to eat because the rich do not pay them well.  

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/friends-mourn-woman-who-died-napping-between-jobs

 

 

Question

Is it better for a mother to have 2 or 3 low paying jobs?  or one modest paying job? The church teaches that mothers need time to educate their children. 

In my opinion, this post is wrong headed, though I doubt that a single person will agree.  Women with children should not be working outside the home, save for volunteering when the children are not there. It is a mistake for Mormons to adopt the values of American culture, and now we are seeing the error more and more.

[Alan]

 

"Being wealthy is not morally wrong. The danger, as the Book of Mormon repeatedly emphasizes, is that when people become wealthy they sometimes forget the Lord and His commandments. President Brigham Young (1801–77) said: “The worst fear that I have about [members of this Church] is that they will get rich in this country, forget God and his people, wax fat, and kick themselves out of the Church and go to hell. This people will stand mobbing, robbing, poverty, and all manner of persecution, and be true. But my greater fear for them is that they cannot stand wealth; and yet they have to be tried with riches” (quoted in Preston Nibley, Brigham Young: The Man and His Work [1936], 128)." 

https://www.lds.org/liahona/2002/04/questions-and-answers?lang=eng

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I absolutely disagree with this statement. 

Being wealthy is morally wrong when others are poor.

[KevinG]

I think it is fair to say that those who oppress their employees are going to hell. I think paying ridiculously low wages counts as oppression. I have met church members who think doing so is just being thrifty and wise. They are going to hell too.

 

Don't employ other people.  It is the only safe way.

[cinepro]

The reality is that many LDS do not see that 

 

 

If I had millions of dollars that would be no problem, I would pay them at least 12.50 dollars an hour, not 7.25 an hour. The scriptures talk about the rich taking unfair advantage. 

 

 

Would you still do it when you didn't have millions of dollars anymore?

[JLHPROF]

I absolutely disagree with this statement. 

Being wealthy is morally wrong when others are poor.

 

I want to agree with you, but at the same time, I really can't.

Helping the poor is always part of our responsibility.  But that doesn't mean that our having wealth or spending money on ourselves is a sin.

 

Even the Savior said -

 

Matthew 26

⁷ There came unto him a woman having an alabaster box of very precious ointment, and poured it on his head, as he sat at meat.

⁸ But when his disciples saw it, they had indignation, saying, To what purpose is this waste?

⁹ For this ointment might have been sold for much, and given to the poor.

¹⁰ When Jesus understood it, he said unto them, Why trouble ye the woman? for she hath wrought a good work upon me.

¹¹ For ye have the poor always with you; but me ye have not always.

 

The disciples would have agreed with you, but Christ saw something different.

 So did Brigham Young:

 

If the poor had all the surplus property of the rich many of them would waste it on the lusts of the flesh, and destroy themselves in using it. For this reason the Lord does not require the rich to give all their substance to the poor.  DBY 317

[KevinG]

In my opinion, this post is wrong headed, though I doubt that a single person will agree.  Women with children should not be working outside the home, save for volunteering when the children are not there. It is a mistake for Mormons to adopt the values of American culture, and now we are seeing the error more and more.

 

My wife has just started to work for a family friend after decades of being a full time mom.  But the needs of her children (now mostly adult) are more financial than physical at the moment, and she has flexible enough work that she can be there for support whenever her children need.  I have noticed growth in her as a person from new experiences, and some joy on her part providing some additional help.  On the other hand the house is messier without Mom riding us to get things done, and there are a few more conflicts with schedules.

 

All in all it is an individual call on the part of the Saints to prayerfully consider what they do for employment, and as long as they are inspired and not selfish I think hard and fast rules on employment of mothers are not necessary.

[The Nehor]

Don't employ other people.  It is the only safe way.

No, it just means not to be predatory about it. If you can afford to pay honest wages then do so. If your business can only function via exploitation then get out of that business.

[cinepro]

"Some employers are not fair to their employees; they pay them less than they should. Satan says, “Take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor” (2 Nephi 28:8 ). Taking unfair advantage is a form of dishonesty." Gospel Principles, (2011), 179–83

https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-31-honesty?lang=eng&query=employers+low+wage

 

"Being wealthy is not morally wrong. The danger, as the Book of Mormon repeatedly emphasizes, is that when people become wealthy they sometimes forget the Lord and His commandments. President Brigham Young (1801–77) said: “The worst fear that I have about [members of this Church] is that they will get rich in this country, forget God and his people, wax fat, and kick themselves out of the Church and go to hell. This people will stand mobbing, robbing, poverty, and all manner of persecution, and be true. But my greater fear for them is that they cannot stand wealth; and yet they have to be tried with riches” (quoted in Preston Nibley, Brigham Young: The Man and His Work [1936], 128)." 

https://www.lds.org/liahona/2002/04/questions-and-answers?lang=eng

 

 Elder Aleksandr N. Manzhos said, "I especially recall the testimony of one sister whose inspired face I can still see in my mind. She was a single mother. She and her one-year-old child lived in the dormitory of the factory where she worked. Economic conditions were not good" 

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2004/04/book-of-mormon-principles-spiritually-born-of-god?lang=eng

 

There are many mothers like Maria Fernandez that have 3 jobs just to survive. They do not have the time to be with their family and children, they do not have the time to teach their children. The church wants the mothers to teach their children, but some of them have to work a lot just to eat because the rich do not pay them well.  

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/friends-mourn-woman-who-died-napping-between-jobs

 

 

Question

Is it better for a mother to have 2 or 3 low paying jobs?  or one modest paying job? The church teaches that mothers need time to educate their children. 

 

It should also be pointed out that your last quote isn't an "LDS Statement".  And the answer to your question is that it's better to have a mother to be married to a man that has a good paying job, and she can stay home and nurture the children.

[KevinG]

No, it just means not to be predatory about it. If you can afford to pay honest wages then do so. If your business can only function via exploitation then get out of that business.

 

That was sarcasm.  Sorry I didn't label it with a smiley sticking out its tongue.

 

Exploitation is bad.  Exactly what level of payment constitutes exploitation is hard to pin down.  There are people in California demanding that all jobs pay a minimum of $15 per hour.  But would they pay $9 for a big mac meal?  One of the organizations organizing protester's calling for the $15 dollar minimum wage only pays their employees $13 per hour because they can't afford $15.  McDonalds is considering putting in automated cash registers and bypassing human clerks all together.  Are those clerks better off making lower wages and having employment, or being replaced completely by a machine that doesn't need breaks, won't complain or show up late, and will always get the order exactly as the customer placed it?

 

Can a high school dropout or current student demand the same remuneration as a computer engineer with a masters degree working on contract?  

 

Not every claim that evil corporations are predatory has merit.

[KevinG]

It should also be pointed out that your last quote isn't an "LDS Statement".  And the answer to your question is that it's better to have a mother to be married to a man that has a good paying job, and she can stay home and nurture the children.

 

I fear the men in this equation are not pulling their weight and honoring their covenants as much as the women need us to. 

[EllenMaksoud]

My wife has just started to work for a family friend after decades of being a full time mom.  But the needs of her children (now mostly adult) are more financial than physical at the moment, and she has flexible enough work that she can be there for support whenever her children need.  I have noticed growth in her as a person from new experiences, and some joy on her part providing some additional help.  On the other hand the house is messier without Mom riding us to get things done, and there are a few more conflicts with schedules.

 

All in all it is an individual call on the part of the Saints to prayerfully consider what they do for employment, and as long as they are inspired and not selfish I think hard and fast rules on employment of mothers are not necessary.

Well. I can't argue with your approach. And, perhaps there is a way to blend work and child nurturing. Perhaps Capitolism needs to take a back seat to the welfare of the community. I have wanted to study the Hutterites but did not make it there this year. My childhood Amish like experience was harsh and angry.

 

I do see Mormon women going on to college but have no idea what the demographics are. It seems to me that there are many women would benefit from a Doctorate and extended work in their field. The issue is how to see that the children get attention from Mother and Father that God intended them to have. Perhaps, colleges and work places could be more proactive in facilitating conditions that are conductive to family health, while at the same time allowing both Mother and Father to experience the professional growth they need.

 

Just take a look at how many achievements women have made, in spite of family responsibilities. As to poverty or wealth, I prefer to be rich. We all fight the Media who promote uses of our wealth that are self agrandizing and harmful to our society.

[KevinG]

Yes.  It is a matter of selfishness more than wealth.  Money is not the root of all evil.  Love of money is the root of all evil.

[Calm]

High numbers of LDS women enter college, but in the past (don't know if this is the most current finding as it was changing last time I looked) we were low in getting our degree and much lower in post graduate work, most likely due to getting married during the college years and then putting husband through school and kids.

[KevinG]

I would rather have a highly educated poorly employed mother for my grandchildren, than a poorly educated, highly employed one.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I absolutely disagree with this statement. 

Being wealthy is morally wrong when others are poor.

No it isn't. That statement is no were in scripture. What is wrong is when you have excess and there are those that are poor, that you with hold it. That is what is wrong. being wealthy alone is not wrong. As with a whole host of things, it is what one does with something that is what makes it good or bad.

 

Being poor is not wrong but if you are able to work and you sit on your butt all day and do nothing to better your self and you are poor because of it,  I see that as no different than the wealthy guy that refuses to give to the poor.

[MormonFreeThinker]

Would you still do it when you didn't have millions of dollars anymore?

 

I am talking about the rich, the scriptures talk about the rich, they can afford to pay their employees better. In my first job, it is a small business, I earned 8.50 an hour, not 7.25 an hour. Many rich guys pay you 7.25 an hour, that is what some people like Maria Fernandez earn, and they have to get three jobs.  

 

2 Nephi 9:30 But wo unto the rich, who are rich as to the things of the world. For because they are rich they despise the poor

Proverbs 22:16 He that oppresseth the poor to increase his riches, and he that giveth to the rich, shall surely come to want. NIV One who oppresses the poor to increase his wealth and one who gives gifts to the rich—both come to poverty.

 

The Gospel Principles manual is talking about the rich that pay very poorly 

 

"Some employers are not fair to their employees; they pay them less than they should. Satan says, “Take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor” (2 Nephi 28:8 ). Taking unfair advantage is a form of dishonesty." Gospel Principles, (2011), 179–83

Edited October 27, 2014 by MormonFreeThinker

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

 

Not every claim that evil corporations are predatory has merit.

Actually, most claims are false and have no merit to them. In this day and age it is probably impossible, at least in this country, to exploit the worker.

[KevinG]

You cut off 2 Nephi 9:30 too early.  

 

 30 But wo unto the rich, who are rich as to the things of the world. For because they are rich they despise the poor, and they persecute the meek, and their hearts are upon their treasures; wherefore, their treasure is their god. And behold, their treasure shall perish with them also.

 

It is not the riches that are corrupt but the love of riches above others.

[MormonFreeThinker]

 

Being poor is not wrong but if you are able to work and you sit on your butt all day and do nothing to better your self and you are poor because of it,  I see that as no different than the wealthy guy that refuses to give to the poor.

 

Many people do want a better life, but they can't get it. They can't afford to pay for college, and the rich despise them. Not all poor people are former criminals, former criminals are not hired anywhere. 

 

2 Nephi 9:30 But wo unto the rich, who are rich as to the things of the world. For because they are rich they despise the poor

Edited October 27, 2014 by MormonFreeThinker