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Should We Lds Really Admire The Reformers?


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.............................................................................I am content with volgadon's apprehension of what I have been trying to say.

 

Rory

Allen (volgadon) is a very wise young man, whom I have had the pleasure to meet on more than one occasion.

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My question to you, Allen, is have any LDS Church court decisions in Israel been enforced by the State?  Or is the LDS Church simply not officially recognized there?

 

We have official recognition, but we don't fit into the Millett system. Our marriages are recognised in Israel, for example, but we don't have the right to conduct marriages in Israel

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I'm 30, so to the generation that knew not the 80s, I'm old.

Oh my, Volgadon I have a daughter that was born in 1985! Thanks for making me feel old. ;) If I remember right, you presented at last years Fairmormon conference, that blows me away you're so young.
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Ahab, I don't think you understand the problem

The righteous people who the Book of Mormon was written about didn't force or coerce anyone to worship as they worshipped, and we don't either.

If someone infringes on the religion or life of the nation, they can be condemned to death. In Alma 1, Nehor is condemned for both murder and for trying to enforce priest craft, both of which are said to be contrary to the law established by Mosiah.

In Alma 30, Zoram is detained for teaching his religious beliefs, interrogated by Ammon in his ecclesiastical capacity, exiled from a Nephite state and is eventually transferred to the custody of Alma, the high priest, on the orders of the local magistrate.

In Alma 46, Captain Moroni raises a flag adopted as an official government slogan which includes the protection a specific religious belief system. This places the conflict within the context of a religious warfare mandated by government.

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Yes volgadon is a smart kid. OK he is incredibly smart.

But what really drives me crazily jealous is his encyclopedic knowledge of Bob Dylan lyrics, and American folk music, at his age.

It's just not fair.

;)

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Ahab, I don't think you understand the problem

I think the problem is that you don't see fighting to uphold everyone's right to the free exercise of their religion as not prohibiting the free exercise of religion.

We will fight to the death or execute people to uphold that right for everybody, and when we choose to be a little more lenient we will put people in prison... anytime anywhere when anyone has tried to subvert that right in our realm or in another nation where people have asked us for our support.

Yeah, I am [well pleased] to be an American.

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What the heck I'll give it a bump since it's about to fall off page one.

I think the problem is that you don't see fighting to uphold everyone's right to the free exercise of their religion as not prohibiting the free exercise of religion.

We will fight to the death or execute people to uphold that right for everybody, and when we choose to be a little more lenient we will put people in prison... anytime anywhere when anyone has tried to subvert that right in our realm or in another nation where people have asked us for our support.

Yeah, I am [well pleased] to be an American.

I think this post stands on its own merits and needs no reply.

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What the heck I'll give it a bump since it's about to fall off page one.

I think this post stands on its own merits and needs no reply.

 

deleted.

Edited by 3DOP
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Its really not my business except I would rather that Mormons could see Catholicism as less unfavorable than Luther or Calvin. If you want to love Luther go ahead. What did Luther really do other than oppose Catholics doctrines that are more compatible with your own than his are? His big 500 year bash is coming up in our lifetime. 2017 for the 95 theses? Would I celebrate if I were LDS? No. In addition to seeing Catholic teaching in a less unfavorable light, I would be convinced that the Catholics would be more tolerant of my public religious liberty.

 

So do you or don't you admire the Reformers? If I correctly understand, Ahab needs to "fight to the death or execute" Catholics like me. Fair enough. I don't deny that in the strictest sense, which he misunderstands as to necessary nuances, I oppose the kind of public religious liberty that he lauds. But why are equally suppressive views on public religious liberty plus worse doctrine something to admire? Does Ahab not need to execute Calvin and Co. too? The question here is about whether Mormons should applaud Calvin, Luther, and Zwingli? Do you or don't you, admire the Reformers?

I think that each of the Reformers must be taken in the context of his times.  For example, as an Augustinian monk and priest, and as a professor at Wittenberg University, Dr. Martin Luther had a whole panoply of reasons for going to war with his Popes (Julius II, 1503-1513, and  Leo X, 1513-1521) and with his Church.  Were his complaints valid?  Was the Counter Reformation a good thing?

 

As to the executions by John Calvin and those of his Roman Catholic opponents, I don't see that this in any way tells us that the Reformation was good or bad.  Only that the consequences of it did lead inexorably to religious liberty and freedom of conscience.  However, that was centuries down the road, and without the Reformation, we would never have gotten there.

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I don't see any reason to be drawn into a sectarian religious war that has gone on for 500 years unresolved.

That's precisely why we needed a restoration in the first place. Go ahead and fight your fights.  We are the small mammals on the jungle floor waiting for the dinosaurs to go their way.

Edited by mfbukowski
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I think that each of the Reformers must be taken in the context of his times.  For example, as an Augustinian monk and priest, and as a professor at Wittenberg University, Dr. Martin Luther had a whole panoply of reasons for going to war with his Popes (Julius II, 1503-1513, and  Leo X, 1513-1521) and with his Church.  Were his complaints valid?  Was the Counter Reformation a good thing?

 

As to the executions by John Calvin and those of his Roman Catholic opponents, I don't see that this in any way tells us that the Reformation was good or bad.  Only that the consequences of it did lead inexorably to religious liberty and freedom of conscience.  However, that was centuries down the road, and without the Reformation, we would never have gotten there.

 

Hi Robert,

 

You may have noted, I decided to withdraw my comments to which you replied above after I had let them stay up for an hour or two. It was repetitive of what I had said previously. If you had posted first, I wouldn't have deleted. I thought there might be a chance someone was replying as I deleted. In other words, my deletion is not a reply to your comments. My reply is partly in the form of questions which reflect my belief that the Catholic Church cannot be held responsible for violations of free conscience, either before or after the Reformation.

 

I have freely admitted that some principles of modern religious religious liberty have always been opposed by the teaching of the Catholic faith (as I understand it). On the other hand, I am convinced that there have been relatively few violations of conscience. It is important that it be understood that freedom of conscience has always been essential and inviolable in Catholic teaching. God does not desire worship that is given reluctantly. I know of at least one sad episode where the excesses of Catholic political leaders seem incompatible with the glory of God or salvation of souls. But the Church never applauded or encouraged such acts that were incompatible with its own Sacramental Theology.

 

The Mountain Meadows episode comes to mind as an event troubling enough in itself, with which many LDS are familiar. But only in the remotest way, can the Mountain Meadows event be connected to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints itself. If one applies a similar hermeneutic to interpretations of some troubling moments in Catholic history, it yields similar conclusions in my opinion, exonerating the Church itself of supporting practices or doctrines encouraging the violation of a free conscience.   

 

Is it your belief that before the Reformation, the Catholic Church violated freedom of conscience? If yes, would it be in regards to its practical dealings with temporal leaders? Would it be in regards to any doctrines which seem to support the violation of a free conscience? In some other manner? Do you have any examples?

 

Regards,

 

Rory

Edited by 3DOP
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