New Gospel Topic Essays - Polygamy

[rockpond]

I don't have an issue with the title " ...had a teen bride" or even it it was "brides" though I would hope in the article it also included the older ages, percentage that were in their teens, etc.

While unusual, it wasnt unheard of. Where he differed is plural marriage whatever the age of the wives. I think the age of his wives is a rabbit trail when it comes to controversy. Plural marriage and what impact that had, etc. is what is truly controversial.

 

I searched yahoo.com for the yahoo news article mentioned by VGJ.  I couldn't find one that had the title he claimed.  All of the links that came up started with "Mormon Founder had Teen Bride..." but they all followed that with "During Early Days of the Church" or "During Polygamy Days".

[Rivers]

I started listening to the Mormon Stories discussion of these polygamy articles but the tone became way too negative the panelists criticizing

everything.

The church had a very difficult task with this topic. They had to discuss the most bizarre episode of Mormon history in one article.

[canard78]

Alright, so I regret having mentioned Dehlin's research as it wasn't even necessary to my point. Would anyone disagree if I had worded my response as follows: "I think you left one out, the feeling of betrayal that comes when a lifelong member who attended primary, sunday school, seminary, institute, general conference, etc comes across information that contradicts their understanding of the Church."

Yes, I certainly agree that an experience like the above could play a part in undermining trust and confidence in the church. I'm not saying that those things have no effect. Just that Dehlin's data is dodgy.

p.s. Since I completed a BS in Statistics I am well aware of the limitations of Dehlin's research. But it does provide interesting information from the self-selected group. And given all that is happening in the church, I think it is short-sighted to ignore the feedback from that population.

It's not to ignore, it's just to frame it correctly.

[Scott Lloyd]

Another vote in favor of moral relativity.

Well, if intellectually recognizing the reality and attendant murkiness of presentism makes me a moral relativist, I guess I'm guilty.

Edited October 27, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[canard78]

I don't have an issue with the title " ...had a teen bride" or even it it was "brides" though I would hope in the article it also included the older ages, percentage that were in their teens, etc.

If they're only quoting/summarising the church new article they wouldn't have that information. They could look it up somewhere, but if the article is headlining a summary of the LDS.org article then your suggestion wouldn't be possible.

[tonie]

i doubt it. I have always understood that teenagers weren't invented til the nineteen fifties/sixties. Even in 1945, 14 year olds in the UK could be working full time. Getting wed at 14 is far from uncommon up to the mid 20th century. In south east asia, they still marry 14 yr olds and younger, though its illegal, its morally OK. I don't believe it had anything like the connotations placed on it today. But polygamy and Joseph Smith's and others marriages don't offend or bother me in the least and never have.

 

How common was a 14 - 15yr old girl marrying a 35+ yr old man?

[cinepro]

Well, if intellectually recognizing the reality and attendant murkiness of presentism makes me a moral relativist, I guess I'm guilty.

 

Actually, it's more like cultural relativism. 

 

Of course, some might consider it really, really odd to argue for cultural relativism in a discussion about early LDS polygamy (which would be about as far from being "relatively" moral as you could get).  But that's hardly the weirdest thing about the issue.

[Calm]

If they're only quoting/summarising the church new article they wouldn't have that information. They could look it up somewhere, but if the article is headlining a summary of the LDS.org article then your suggestion wouldn't be possible.

Hadn't thought of that. Thanks.

Though as a summary that title ranks low.

Edited October 27, 2014 by calmoriah

[Tacenda]

What I don't understand is how women (Emma) back then always had house maids to help them.  What's up with that!!??

[Calm]

How common was a 14 - 15yr old girl marrying a 35+ yr old man?

It wouldn't have got them ostracized from the community like admitting plural marriage would.

[canard78]

Hadn't thought of that. Thanks.

Though as a summary that title ranks low.

Completely agree.

[CV75]

I have no idea if he used the term "teen bride" (as used in the article).

You are the one that used the term teen bride.

 

 

"Out of context to his own day" sounds a lot like moral relativism.

Except it isn't. But apparently that’s easier to blurt out than to offer an authentic and well-considered response to my question – do you not understand the relevance (or lack thereof) of the term “teen bride” in the context of Joseph Smith’s day and situation?

 

 

I think they just described the last 90 years of LDS-published history on polygamy.

 

And I don't know about "teen girls", but I was able to confirm that "fourteen" was just as many back then as it is today.

Apparently these kinds of comments are easier to blurt out than to offer an authentic and well-considered response.

 

i doubt it. I have always understood that teenagers weren't invented til the nineteen fifties/sixties. Even in 1945, 14 year olds in the UK could be working full time. Getting wed at 14 is far from uncommon up to the mid 20th century. In south east asia, they still marry 14 yr olds and younger, though its illegal, its morally OK. I don't believe it had anything like the connotations placed on it today. But polygamy and Joseph Smith's and others marriages don't offend or bother me in the least and never have.

rockpond and cinepro, take a lesson from sheilauk... and Scott

 

Another vote in favor of moral relativity.

Except that it isn't.

 

rockpond and cinepro, other than out of ignorance, why would anyone suggest that Joseph Smith lived in the same world as you?

[CV75]

But that's hardly the weirdest thing about the issue.

So what is (in your own words...)?

[canard78]

What I don't understand is how women (Emma) back then always had house maids to help them. What's up with that!!??

You mean you wouldn't if you could?

We had a "house maid" for a few months while we were living in China. She would clean through the house, wash and iron the clothes and keep things tidy. She did about 20 hours a week and we paid her about 20% over the going rate.

I didn't ever consider suggesting to my wife that the lady should become a second wife. Having said that, if it would have meant her not having to do any more ironing for the next 40 years she might have given it some thought.

[Tacenda]

You mean you wouldn't if you could?

We had a "house maid" for a few months while we were living in China. She would clean through the house, wash and iron the clothes and keep things tidy. She did about 20 hours a week and we paid her about 20% over the going rate.

I didn't ever consider suggesting to my wife that the lady should become a second wife. Having said that, if it would have meant her not having to do any more ironing for the next 40 years she might have given it some thought.

I should have had a wink to go with that sentence.  I've never had a house maid, I've been a house cleaner so on the opposite extreme.   

[mormonnewb]

How common was a 14 - 15yr old girl marrying a 35+ yr old man?

To me, that is the hardest part to understand. It's not the age of the girl/woman, but JS' age. Because I'll concede that 14 back then isn't like 14 now. My grandmother was married at 15, but to her 18 yo husband. However, had a 35 yo GROWN MAN come a courting, then I suspect that great granddaddy would have started a shooting.

But for all I know (and I don't know ANYTHING on this topic), perhaps it was quite common back then, even with the age difference.

[rockpond]

I started listening to the Mormon Stories discussion of these polygamy articles but the tone became way too negative the panelists criticizing

everything.

The church had a very difficult task with this topic. They had to discuss the most bizarre episode of Mormon history in one article.

Nobody has forced them to discuss it in one article. That was their choice.

[omni]

.

But for all I know (and I don't know ANYTHING on this topic), perhaps it was quite common back then, even with the age difference.

Nope it wasn't. It might not have carried the social taboo to the extent it does today, but it most certainly wasn't common. We are taught issues of morality don't change with the times - fornication is every bit as sinful today as it was 150 years ago. Today the Church teaches members shouldn't even group date before their 16th birthdays while at the same justifying the marriage of a 14 year old girl to a 38 year old man as divinely inspired. Where is the moral consistency?

[rockpond]

You are the one that used the term teen bride.

 

rockpond and cinepro, other than out of ignorance, why would anyone suggest that Joseph Smith lived in the same world as you?

Actually the title of the yahoo news article that we were discussing is what used the term "teen bride". To clarify. See Video Game Junkie's post back on page 10(?).

Joseph Smith did, in fact, live in the same world as us. But he lived in a different time and culture. If it is that time and culture that made it morally acceptable for a 37 year old man to marry a 14 year old girl, than that is moral relativism.

[rockpond]

Well, if intellectually recognizing the reality and attendant murkiness of presentism makes me a moral relativist, I guess I'm guilty.

Presentism is what the church essays on polygamy are guilty of.

Here is the moral relativism question: is it morally acceptable for a 37 year old man to marry a 14 year old girl? If you can't answer that question without qualifying it with some form of time or culture than you are participating in moral relativism.

[Rivers]

If it is true that Joseph Smith did not have sexual relations with Helen Kimball, does that make the situation any more morally acceptable?

[EllenMaksoud]

It is now official, Joseph Smith did practice plural marriage. I am sorry Alan. 

 

"In Nauvoo, Joseph Smith married additional wives and authorized other Latter-day Saints to practice plural marriage." 

"Sealings for time and eternity included commitments and relationships during this life, generally including the possibility of sexual relations. Eternity-only sealings indicated relationships in the next life alone. Evidence indicates that Joseph Smith participated in both types of sealings"

https://www.lds.org/topics/plural-marriage-in-kirtland-and-nauvoo?lang=eng

 

https://www.lds.org/topics/the-manifesto-and-the-end-of-plural-marriage?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/topics/plural-marriage-in-the-church-of-jesus-christ-of-latter-day-saints?lang=eng

 

 

Remember, the Gospel Topics are approved by the First Presidency 

 

"Most of those sealed to Joseph Smith were between 20 and 40 years of age at the time of their sealing to him. The oldest, Fanny Young, was 56 years old. The youngest was Helen Mar Kimball, daughter of Joseph’s close friends Heber C. and Vilate Murray Kimball, who was sealed to Joseph several months before her 15th birthday. Marriage at such an age, inappropriate by today’s standards, was legal in that era, and some women married in their mid-teens. Helen Mar Kimball spoke of her sealing to Joseph as being “for eternity alone,” suggesting that the relationship did not involve sexual relations. After Joseph’s death, Helen remarried and became an articulate defender of him and of plural marriage."

https://www.lds.org/topics/plural-marriage-in-kirtland-and-nauvoo?lang=eng

How come it is mostly men discussing this? It is a male fantasy.

[rockpond]

If it is true that Joseph Smith did not have sexual relations with Helen Kimball, does that make the situation any more morally acceptable?

I believe the consensus is that they did not have sexual relations.

I do happen to think that makes it somewhat better. But there was still significant negative impact to her younger years based on her statements.

http://josephsmithspolygamy.org/history-2/plural-wives-overview/helen-mar-kimball/

[Pahoran]

Plural Marriage in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

 

"In Joseph Smith’s time, monogamy was the only legal form of marriage in the United States."

 

 

 

Interesting statement, considering IIRC some of the past apologetics to the contrary.

Such as?

 

Regards,

Pahoran

[tonie]

Pahoran, I have you on ignore. Just letting you know so you don't get ruffled about me not responding to your posts. Also, perhaps you missed the IIRC, which stands for "If I recall correctly" aspect of my statement.