VideoGameJunkie Posted October 21, 2014 Posted October 21, 2014 Or is it still a heavenly commandment for exaltation? D&C 132 talks about it and Brigham Young in his Journal of Discourses said that the only people who become gods are the ones that enter into polygamy. We don't practice it anymore, except for those that lose a loved one and then remarry like 2 of my uncles, but should worthy men members expect to be provided multiple wives in heaven to help populate their multiple worlds with spirit children? It does make sense, but it sounds kind of unfair to the women of the church. How does this all work out?
JLHPROF Posted October 21, 2014 Posted October 21, 2014 Really VGJ? Again? NO. It was NOT a mistake. As far as it being a requirement for exaltation there are only two possible answers I can give you: 1. Brigham Young was wrong and it is not a requirement. Monogamy will gain you exaltation too.2. Brigham Young was right so in order for God to judge all men on the same principles (as Joseph taught) everyone will be given the opportunity to accept polygamy and exaltation or to refuse. So, either Brigham was wrong and you don't have to worry. Or Brigham was right but God is fair and you don't have to worry.Either way...say it with me...you don't have to worry.
VideoGameJunkie Posted October 21, 2014 Author Posted October 21, 2014 But I like to worry. Just kidding. I would accept polygamy in the next life, but I don't know if my earthly spouse would. Does everyone have to agree to it to make it work? All those worlds we get need populating.
VideoGameJunkie Posted October 21, 2014 Author Posted October 21, 2014 I have 2 uncles who are guaranteed to be enjoying multiple wives in heaven. My first uncle had his first wife die and then he was also sealed to his 2nd wife. So he's got both of them in heaven. My other uncle divorced his first wife in court, but remained temple sealed, got remarried civilly, then was finally allowed last year to be sealed to his 2nd wife in the temple as well. So the ways to practice polygamy on earth are to either have your first spouse die and then remarry, or to divorce your first wife in court, keep the sealing, and then remarry and eventually be allowed permission to be sealed to that 2nd wife.
Avatar4321 Posted October 21, 2014 Posted October 21, 2014 No. Obedience to the Lord is never a mistake 2
KevinG Posted October 21, 2014 Posted October 21, 2014 Brigham in context: "We wish to obtain all that father Abraham obtained. I wish here to say to the Elders of Israel, and to all the members of this Church and kingdom, that it is in the hearts of many of them to wish that the doctrine of polygamy was not taught and practiced by us...It is the word of the Lord, and I wish to say to you, and all the world, that if you desire with all your hearts to obtain the blessings which Abraham obtained, you will be polygamists at least in your faith, or you will come short of enjoying the salvation and the glory which Abraham has obtained. This is as true as that God lives. You who wish that there were no such thing in existence, if you have in your hearts to say: "We will pass along in the Church without obeying or submitting to it in our faith or believing this order, because, for aught that we know, this community may be broken up yet, and we may have lucrative offices offered to us; we will not, therefore, be polygamists lest we should fail in obtaining some earthly honor, character and office, etc,"—the man that has that in his heart, and will continue to persist in pursuing that policy, will come short of dwelling in the presence of the Father and the Son, in celestial glory. The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy. Others attain unto a glory and may even be permitted to come into the presence of the Father and the Son; but they cannot reign as kings in glory, because they had blessings offered unto them, and they refused to accept them." - Brigham Young, "Remarks by President Brigham Young, in the Bowery, in G.S.L. City," (19 August 1866) Journal of Discourses 11:268-269. (emphasis added) See Quote mining—Journal of Discourses 11:269 to see how this quote was mined.
VideoGameJunkie Posted October 21, 2014 Author Posted October 21, 2014 Sweet, I'll accept polygamy in heaven. How many wives do I get?
JLHPROF Posted October 21, 2014 Posted October 21, 2014 Sweet, I'll accept polygamy in heaven. How many wives do I get? As many as choose you for your righteous stature and worthiness.
Matt1074 Posted October 21, 2014 Posted October 21, 2014 Or is it still a heavenly commandment for exaltation? D&C 132 talks about it and Brigham Young in his Journal of Discourses said that the only people who become gods are the ones that enter into polygamy. We don't practice it anymore, except for those that lose a loved one and then remarry like 2 of my uncles, but should worthy men members expect to be provided multiple wives in heaven to help populate their multiple worlds with spirit children? It does make sense, but it sounds kind of unfair to the women of the church. How does this all work out?Read through my thoughts here: http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/64355-do-we-worship-joseph-smith/page-13 and decide for yourself. Just don't get too factual or point out the obvious falsehoods in the explanations you are given on this board though, or else the thread will get closed because people felt the need to insult you personally when they had nothing else to say.
JLHPROF Posted October 21, 2014 Posted October 21, 2014 Read through my thoughts here: http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/64355-do-we-worship-joseph-smith/page-13 and decide for yourself. Just don't get too factual or point out the obvious falsehoods in the explanations you are given on this board though, or else the thread will get closed because people felt the need to insult you personally when they had nothing else to say. It is a shame you felt insulted in our responses to you. The issue was 1. You had made up your mind, 2. This was old territory, and 3. Perspective matters - how do we justify or explain something like polyandry to someone who has distaste for polygamy in general.
Tacenda Posted October 21, 2014 Posted October 21, 2014 (edited) Sweet, I'll accept polygamy in heaven. How many wives do I get?71 Edited October 21, 2014 by Tacenda
Silhouette Posted October 21, 2014 Posted October 21, 2014 (edited) It was explained to me thusly:It'll be necessary in exaltation for men to have multiple wives simply because there won't be enough worthy men to go around. The reason given was that men are more carnal by nature, and fewer males than females will make it to that point. Now, gentlemen of this thread, I sure mean no insult to you. Edited October 21, 2014 by Silhouette 1
VideoGameJunkie Posted October 21, 2014 Author Posted October 21, 2014 Tacenda, that sounds like a plan! Are they also virgins? I'm not picky, they don't have to be. Islam believes in 72 virgins when they die.
VideoGameJunkie Posted October 21, 2014 Author Posted October 21, 2014 Silhouette, I always thought it was necessary to have multiple wives to populate multiple worlds with as many spirit children as possible. Hence the term eternal increase.
Tacenda Posted October 21, 2014 Posted October 21, 2014 Tacenda, that sounds like a plan! Are they also virgins? I'm not picky, they don't have to be. Islam believes in 72 virgins when they die.Oh, and I thought I was being so funny! Can I go edit my post...I think I will, haha. Good catch on your part!!
Silhouette Posted October 21, 2014 Posted October 21, 2014 (edited) Silhouette, I always thought it was necessary to have multiple wives to populate multiple worlds with as many spirit children as possible. Hence the term eternal increase.That makes sense, too. I edited my post above to be a little clearer I hope.But in the eternal scheme of things, your explanation is more spiritual than what I was taught, and makes more sense. Edited October 21, 2014 by Silhouette 1
KevinG Posted October 21, 2014 Posted October 21, 2014 I think polygamy had more to do with creating a righteous dynasty than it did population concerns. I think that applies to the eternities too. Check out the blessings of the lineage Joseph in the old testament... Regarding how many wives one can have... how many can you honor properly? I suggest most of us struggle with one. We cannot fully understand polygamy with the current lack of understanding we have about monogamy.
canard78 Posted October 21, 2014 Posted October 21, 2014 It was explained to me thusly:It'll be necessary in exaltation for men to have multiple wives simply because there won't be enough worthy men to go around. The reason given was that men are more carnal by nature, and fewer males than females will make it to that point. Now, gentlemen of this thread, I sure mean no insult to you. 4
Matt1074 Posted October 21, 2014 Posted October 21, 2014 It is a shame you felt insulted in our responses to you. The issue was 1. You had made up your mind, 2. This was old territory, and 3. Perspective matters - how do we justify or explain something like polyandry to someone who has distaste for polygamy in general.I didn't make up my mind, I presented facts. It's frightening that you think facts are somehow a subjective issue. This comment is exactly what I was referring to when I spoke of when I said be prepared for falsehoods in the responses you get, even falsehoods about one's own statements as has happened here. What is a shame is that facts cannot be discussed among adults, that tells me a lot. I think this has been my fourth or fifth final post though, so in order not to waste mine or anyone else's time I really should get moving along. It has been most educational. 1
WysteriaBlue Posted October 21, 2014 Posted October 21, 2014 Since the wives of polygamous husbands actually bear a lesser number of children...and since your point is to fully populate future worlds,.Then why not practice polyandry and have multiple men inseminating multiple wives to get the greatest number of spirit children possible?So, how many husbands will I get? Not so tasteful now is it? 1
KevinG Posted October 21, 2014 Posted October 21, 2014 Joseph was sealed to men too. That doesn't mean he had homosexual marriages. Seriously look up the whole dynastic marriage angle. It is very illuminating. ...and if the Lord requires my wife to have more than one husband, God bless her! I don't think of marriage as a primarily sexual activity - so I rarely find the commandments of God to be distasteful regarding the support of wives and husbands. Certainly those cases where intimacy and progeny was expected would have been intensely difficult and sensitive. But not having been required to live those laws none of us today can claim taste or distaste with any authority. 2
JLHPROF Posted October 21, 2014 Posted October 21, 2014 Joseph was sealed to men too. That doesn't mean he had homosexual marriages. That's because those men will be considered his heirs/children in eternity. This kind of sealing has no relevance to polygamy or marriage. It has relation to when we have children not born in the covenant sealed to us.
Silhouette Posted October 21, 2014 Posted October 21, 2014 That's a rationalisation that sounds like fairly typical home teacher nonsense spin. Mormon scripture teaches that children who die under 8 will go straight to the celestial kingdom. There are, sadly, millions and millions of children who die before 8 every year. People who were Mormons in mortality will be outnumbered at least 100-1 by third-world infants. The 50:50 ratio of these infants means there's no need for polygamy on the rationale you give. You'll probably still believe it though.Actually, if you read the post I made after that, you'll note that I said VideoGameJunkie's idea was more spiritual than what I was told by the Home Teacher. And the rationale was not mine to give. As I said, it was explained to me that way by my Home Teacher many years ago.
KevinG Posted October 21, 2014 Posted October 21, 2014 That's because those men will be considered his heirs/children in eternity. This kind of sealing has no relevance to polygamy or marriage. It has relation to when we have children not born in the covenant sealed to us. That kind of sealing has everything to do with marriage, and eternal family. Sealing is just that. It is not connubial relations, (although it does not preclude or require them). It is an eternal link, a creation of a grand family back to Adam and our Father in Heaven. Dealing with polygamy as though it were a primarily sexual or population raising thing is an incomplete view of the principle. 2
JLHPROF Posted October 21, 2014 Posted October 21, 2014 That kind of sealing has everything to do with marriage, and eternal family. Sealing is just that. It is not connubial relations, (although it does not preclude or require them). It is an eternal link, a creation of a grand family back to Adam and our Father in Heaven. Dealing with polygamy as though it were a primarily sexual or population raising thing is an incomplete view of the principle. I feel like I have to explain this every couple of days (and I know there are some who disagree, but the ceremonies are pretty clearly written - I've triple checked). So, here we go again (with a small edit for clarity): "There are two sealing ceremonies, completely unrelated to each other. In the first sealing ceremony a child (or children) are sealed to a mother and father as heirs. This is what they are pronounced in the sealing. In the second sealing ceremony a man and woman are sealed together as spouses. This is what they are pronounced in the sealing. There then follows an additional group of blessings sealed upon their heads. This is sometimes mistakenly considered to be the "sealing" which makes no sense if you read the words. The sealing is the joining of husband and wife. A TEMPLE marriage is the same thing as a TEMPLE sealing. To say otherwise is manipulating fact." http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/64355-do-we-worship-joseph-smith/page-16#entry1209430863 So, the sealing of Joseph to men falls under the first category (just like you and your children).The sealing of Joseph to women falls under the second category (just like you and your wife). Find me a recorded (not hinted at) third category (other than Jane Manning's one-off) and I'll take a look.
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