No Historical References To Christ?

[Daniel2]

An interesting read from the Huffington Post which bluntly attempts to cast doubt on both Christianity and Mormonism:

If Jesus Never Existed, Religion May Be Fiction

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/5883198?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592

Nigel Barber 09/25/14 05:29 PM ET

As someone raised in a Christian country, I learned that there was a historical Jesus. Now historical analysis finds no clear evidence that Jesus existed. If not, Christianity was fabricated, just like Mormonism and other religions. Why do people choose to believe religious fictions?

Given the depth of religious tradition in Christian countries, where the "Christian era" calendar is based upon the presumed life of Jesus, it would be astonishing if there was no evidence of a historical Jesus. After all, in an era when there were scores of messianic prophets, why go to the trouble of making one up?

In History, Jesus Was a No ShowVarious historical scholars attempted to authenticate Jesus in the historical record, particularly in the work of Jesus-era writers. Michael Paulkovich revived this project as summarized in the current issue of Free Inquiry.

Paulkovich found an astonishing absence of evidence for the existence of Jesus in history. "Historian Flavius Josephus published his Jewish Wars circa 95 CE. He had lived in Japhia, one mile from Nazareth - yet Josephus seems unaware of both Nazareth and Jesus." He is at pains to discredit interpolations in this work that "made him appear to write of Jesus when he did not." Most religious historians take a more nuanced view agreeing that Christian scholars added their own pieces much later but maintaining that the historical reference to Jesus was present in the original. Yet, a fudged text is not compelling evidence for anything.

Paulkovich consulted no fewer than 126 historians (including Josephus) who lived in the period and ought to have been aware of Jesus if he had existed and performed the miracles that supposedly drew a great deal of popular attention. Of the 126 writers who should have written about Jesus, not a single one did so (if one accepts Paulkovich's view that the Jesus references in Josephus are interpolated).

Paulkovich concludes:

When I consider those 126 writers, all of whom should have heard of Jesus but did not - and Paul and Marcion and Athenagoras and Matthew with a tetralogy of opposing Christs, the silence from Qumram and Nazareth and Bethlehem, conflicting Bible stories, and so many other mysteries and omissions - I must conclude that Christ is a mythical character.

He also considers striking similarities of Jesus to other God-sons such as Mithra, Sandan, Attis, and Horus. Christianity has its own imitator. Mormonism was heavily influenced by the Bible from which founder Joseph Smith borrowed liberally.

Mormonism fabricated in plain sight We may not know for sure what happened two millennia ago but Mormonism was fabricated in plain sight by a convicted conman. According to Christopher Hitchens:

In March, 1826, a court in Bainbridge, New York, convicted a twenty-one-year-old man of being a "disorderly person and an impostor." That ought to have been all we ever heard of Joseph Smith, who at trial admitted to defrauding citizens by organizing mad gold-digging expeditions and also to claiming to possess dark or "necromantic" powers.

Hitchens writes: "Quite recent scholarship has exposed every single other Mormon "document" as at best a scrawny compromise and at worst a pitiful fake" ...

Smith's legacy was cleaned up via subsequent "divine revelations" that rejected first polygamy and then racism at convenient historical turning points. So the historical development from fakery to respectable religion is well documented.

There is no reason to believe that the genesis of any major religion was substantially different. This raises the question of why so many intelligent people choose to believe religious fictions.

The most plausible explanation is that they cannot easily distinguish between organized religion and confidence rackets.

Starting a fake religion

Religious people may find that hard to swallow, so it is interesting to see what happens when someone sets out to found a fake religion. Would this work, or would members see through the deception and promptly leave?

American Indian film director Vikram Gandhi studied yogis and their followers in India. He concluded that these holy men were confidence tricksters, scores of whom plied their trade throughout India in the manner of the Jesus story.

The filmmaker wondered whether he could pass himself off as a guru here in the U.S. He cultivated a fake Indian accent, grew out his hair and beard and reinvented himself as Sri Kumare, a mystic hailing from a fictitious Indian village.

In the film, Kumare (2011) the director founds his cult in Arizona where he unloads his bogus mysticism upon the unsuspecting public and soon draws a group of devoted followers who seek his counsel on their life problems and become frighteningly dependent upon his new-age advice.

The underlying psychology may be fairly simple. Common confidence tricksters work their magic by telling victims what they want to hear. The same is true of successful prophets who offer pie in the sky bye and bye as I explain in my book Why Atheism Will Replace Religion. The only reason that Jesus does not fit in this category is that he probably never existed.

Edited September 26, 2014 by Daniel2

[stemelbow]

Now historical analysis finds no clear evidence that Jesus existed. If not, Christianity was fabricated, just like Mormonism and other religions

I struggle seeing what's interesting in these types of pieces. they seem a dime a dozen these days. The above just seems silly on the face of it. Because we can't find evidence of something that something must be fabricated? Not very helpful.

In the end he ends up, it seems to me, much like the guru from the film he describes. Just someone trying to get a following of like-minded folks, "tricking" them to think like he thinks. I don't see much different.

 

Mormonism fabricated in plain sight We may not know for sure what happened two millennia ago but Mormonism was fabricated in plain sight by a convicted conman. According to Christopher Hitchens:

In March, 1826, a court in Bainbridge, New York, convicted a twenty-one-year-old man of being a "disorderly person and an impostor." That ought to have been all we ever heard of Joseph Smith, who at trial admitted to defrauding citizens by organizing mad gold-digging expeditions and also to claiming to possess dark or "necromantic" powers.

Hitchens writes: "Quite recent scholarship has exposed every single other Mormon "document" as at best a scrawny compromise and at worst a pitiful fake" ...

Smith's legacy was cleaned up via subsequent "divine revelations" that rejected first polygamy and then racism at convenient historical turning points. So the historical development from fakery to respectable religion is well documented.

Its just such a pitifully sophomoric view to try to neatly categorize and explain Mormonism or any religion like this. In the end, it just comes off as a ridiculous joke. Besides JS was 20 in 1826, and the "admitted to defrauding citizens by organizing mad gold-digging expeditions" is laughable. To claim Christ did not exist because there is no evidence that proves he exists then to lazily make claims like this just makes this a joke, if ya ask me. But

Edited September 26, 2014 by stemelbow

[thesometimesaint]

So everyone who disagrees with Mr. Paulkovich is either lying or woefully ignorant. What a arrogant intellectually obtuse twit.

[Nevo]

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Edited October 1, 2014 by Nevo

[Nevo]

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Edited October 1, 2014 by Nevo

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

If Jesus Never Existed, Religion May Be Fiction

 

His premise is a joke. Religion could still be true even if Jesus never existed.

 

Further more Jesus did exist. So this is a pointless hypothetical.

 

This is what counts as "journalism" these days.

[EllenMaksoud]

I struggle seeing what's interesting in these types of pieces. they seem a dime a dozen these days. The above just seems silly on the face of it. Because we can't find evidence of something that something must be fabricated? Not very helpful.

In the end he ends up, it seems to me, much like the guru from the film he describes. Just someone trying to get a following of like-minded folks, "tricking" them to think like he thinks. I don't see much different.

 

Its just such a pitifully sophomoric view to try to neatly categorize and explain Mormonism or any religion like this. In the end, it just comes off as a ridiculous joke. Besides JS was 20 in 1826, and the "admitted to defrauding citizens by organizing mad gold-digging expeditions" is laughable. To claim Christ did not exist because there is no evidence that proves he exists then to lazily make claims like this just makes this a joke, if ya ask me. But

On Sunday, I came back to my apartment to find some residents holding a "Peace Meeting" in the Community room. I stepped in to see what this was about. The main part of this meeting was ridiculing God. I repented quickly and left. Hopefully only their part of the building will fall on their heads.

 

I said the above to show that there are those around who try to ignore God. It gives me the creeps when I encounter it.

[Teancum]

I think it fairly undisputed that a man from Galilee named Yeshua existed.  That he was an apocolytic prophet of sorts seems clear as well.

 

Even Bart Ehrman who is not a believer argues for Jesus being a real person of history:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Did-Jesus-Exist-Historical-Argument/dp/0062206443

 

In Did Jesus Exist? historian and Bible expert Bart Ehrman confronts the question, "Did Jesus exist at all?" Ehrman vigorously defends the historical Jesus, identifies the most historically reliable sources for best understanding Jesus’ mission and message, and offers a compelling portrait of the person at the heart of the Christian tradition.

Known as a master explainer with deep knowledge of the field, Bart Ehrman methodically demolishes both the scholarly and popular “mythicist” arguments against the existence of Jesus. Marshaling evidence from within the Bible and the wider historical record of the ancient world, Ehrman tackles the key issues that surround the mythologies associated with Jesus and the early Christian movement.

In Did Jesus Exist?: The Historical Argument for Jesus of Nazareth, Ehrman establishes the criterion for any genuine historical investigation and provides a robust defense of the methods required to discover the Jesus of history.

 

 

 

 

Now if you want to discuss whether there is loads of historical evidence outside the bible for the miracles Jesus performed, the claim he is the Son of God and that he paid for out sins well that is another matter.

[The Nehor]

For some reason the gospels are not counted as evidence or that Paul wrote of people who knew Him. We have more evidence of Jesus then we have of many historical figures that are accepted to exist but there is unlikely to be any publicity from making statements about them and you will not find a mob of drooling sycophants repeating and defending your every word because they are still angry at their parents.

[Duncan]

Some years ago bro. Daniel Peterson recommended a book on here about this issue, it's called "Jesus Outside the New Testament" by Robert Van Voorst. Excellent read!! I'd lend it to you but I can't throw that far....shucks!

[Storm Rider]

The Huff is not really known for being an actual news organization; rather it is a purveyor of opinion and achieving an agenda. Those who accept their opinion cheer and clap and those that don't shake their heads.  

[halconero]

This argument needs to be put to rest. It seems to be a huge obsession among quite a number (not a majority, but not a minute minority either) of atheists/agnostics. An overwhelming majority of both theologians and secular biblical scholars agree that there was a historical Jesus. Whether or not he was a prophet, sage, miracle worker, the Son of God, or something else is a huge point of debate, but no expert on early Christianity worth his or her salary seriously considers the idea that Jesus didn't exist anymore.

[Rob Osborn]

Atheists are long at work these days. Now, where is that fly swatter?

[VideoGameJunkie]

You can try to doubt and deny historical accuracies, but you can never deny if you've felt the spirit. I've felt the extreme power of the spirit twice in my life. Once during my patriarchal blessing and second when I got a priesthood blessing last September from my home teacher who was in the Bishopric and is now my Bishop. Once you've felt the spirit, that's enough to convince you.

[saemo]

Atheistic nihilists.    If only they could see themselves the way they see the world.

[Buzzard]

Well, for us, there is that whole First Vision thing, and Kirtland, and the 76th section, and so on.  

[MormonFreeThinker]

Jesus lived in poverty, we shouldn't expect to find first century non-Christian accounts of his life. 

 

Read  Did Jesus Exist The Historical Argument for Jesus of Nazareth by Bart D. Ehrman

Did Jesus Exist? What the Evidence Reveals by Tim Callahan, I have not read that magazine, but Callahan does believe in the historical Jesus. 

 

Read 

http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2012/04/did-jesus-exist-all-out-war-is-going-on.html

 

Quote 

 

Before proceeding I need to say from the outset that I think there was probably a historical founder of the Jesus cult represented in the four canonical Gospels. That skeptics disagree on this question merely means we disagree. From personal correspondence and from their writings, this is what a few prominent skeptics think:

1. Skeptics who think there was probably a historical founder of the Jesus cult: Bart Ehrman, Tim Callahan, Paul Kurtz, Gerd Lüdemann, Paul Tobin, and G. A. Wells, who had been the leading defender of Jesus mythicism in our generation but later “repudiated” his former view.

2. A skeptic who is agnostic about this question: Hector Avalos.

3. Skeptics who think the Jesus story is probably a myth: Earl Doherty, Robert Price, Richard Carrier, Thomas L. Thompson, Dan Barker, and Frank Zindler.

 

Not biased. 

Edited September 26, 2014 by MormonFreeThinker

[mfbukowski]

Guess what?

 

There is no evidence murder is wrong either, or that people should be decent to each other, be compassionate, take care of the poor and unfortunate, give people health care or be liberal like the Huntington Post.

 

Somehow they believe they should be moral nevertheless.

 

People who live in glass houses should not throw stones.

[mfbukowski]

If Jesus Never Existed, Religion May Be Fiction

 

His premise is a joke. Religion could still be true even if Jesus never existed.

 

Further more Jesus did exist. So this is a pointless hypothetical.

 

This is what counts as "journalism" these days.

Now THERE is a man who gets it! 

[theplains]

An interesting read from the Huffington Post which bluntly attempts to cast doubt on both Christianity and Mormonism:

 

 

Mr. Barber would also have to conclude that Alexander the Great did not exist. The devil does 

a much better job getting people to doubt.

 

Jim

[Guest]

There is always an angle...what is his is declaring there was no Jesus? What is next; no Moses? And of course no God of any kind so no absolute truths, therefore no rules for behavior?? Not hard to see the agenda and what and where this is going.

[Stroopwafel]

Atheistic nihilists.    If only they could see themselves the way they see the world.

Sorry, but that isn't really Christlike.

[The Nehor]

Sorry, but that isn't really Christlike.

As we all know Christ never insulted anyone or suggested that anyone was wrong. Oh....wait.....Oh.

[saemo]

I wasn't making an insult, but an observation. Obviously, not understood, but that's nothing new. :/

Edited September 28, 2014 by saemo

[Stroopwafel]

I wasn't making an insult, but an observation. Obviously, not understood, but that's nothing new. :/

Sorry, upon reading what you wrote again (after a good night's sleep), it does seem I misunderstood your intent. Yet I'm still not sure what you meant to say...