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Symbolism Of The Flood Of Noah


tonie

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What is the symbolism of Noah and the flood? (Gospel Topics, lds.org)

God uses symbols to teach gospel truths. In the New Testament, Peter explained that the flood was a “like figure” or symbol of baptism (1 Peter 3:20–21). Just as the earth was immersed in water, so we must be baptized by water and by the Spirit before we can enter the celestial kingdom.

 

Baptism (Gospel Topics, lds.org)

Baptism by immersion in water by one having authority is the first saving ordinance of the gospel and is necessary for an individual to become a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and to receive eternal salvation.

 

Immersion

Immersion means being completely covered by water.

 

Questions:

Can a local flood be considered a symbol of baptism, especially considering that baptism means complete immersion?

 

Given that the “Flood of Noah” is symbol of complete immersion, and baptism is THE first saving ordinance, is the nature of the flood is critical to LDS Theology?

 

Does the statement “Just as the earth was immersed in water…” show the Church takes an official position on the flood?

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 Young children(mentally or physically) have no need of baptism, and neither do inanimate, or nonhuman organisms. A world wide flood in Noah's time is neither physically possible or theologically necessary.

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A world wide flood is a teaching of the Church, and is taught that it was symbol of complete immersion; which would make it "theologically necessary".

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I believe there was a worldwide flood, for no other reason than that is what the scriptures refer to and the prophets agree.

 

If science says there wasn't one, well, eventually science will figure out how it was done.

Edited by JLHPROF
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A world wide flood is a teaching of the Church, and is taught that it was symbol of complete immersion; which would make it "theologically necessary".

Its called symbolism for a reason, and no it doesn't make it theologically necessary.  See how easy that was.

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I believe there was a worldwide flood, for no other reason than that is what the scriptures refer to and the prophets agree.

 

If science says there wasn't one, well, eventually science will figure out how it was done.

Encyclopedia of Mormonism

THE GREAT FLOOD. The Old Testament records a flood that was just over fifteen cubits (sometimes assumed to be about twenty-six feet) deep and covered the entire landscape: "And all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered" (Gen. 7:19). Scientifically this account leaves many questions unanswered, especially how a measurable depth could cover mountains. Elder John A. Widtsoe, writing in 1943, offered this perspective: The fact remains that the exact nature of the flood is not known. We set up assumptions, based upon our best knowledge, but can go no further. We should remember that when inspired writers deal with historical incidents they relate that which they have seen or that which may have been told them, unless indeed the past is opened to them by revelation.

The details in the story of the flood are undoubtedly drawn from the experiences of the writer. Under a downpour of rain, likened to the opening of the heavens, a destructive torrent twenty-six feet deep or deeper would easily be formed. The writer of Genesis made a faithful report of the facts known to him concerning the flood. In other localities the depth of the water might have been more or less. In fact, the details of the flood are not known to us [Widtsoe, p. 127].

 

Entirely possible, but not likely to happen anytime soon.

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Encyclopedia of Mormonism

THE GREAT FLOOD. The Old Testament records a flood that was just over fifteen cubits (sometimes assumed to be about twenty-six feet) deep and covered the entire landscape: "And all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered" (Gen. 7:19). Scientifically this account leaves many questions unanswered, especially how a measurable depth could cover mountains. Elder John A. Widtsoe, writing in 1943, offered this perspective: The fact remains that the exact nature of the flood is not known. We set up assumptions, based upon our best knowledge, but can go no further. We should remember that when inspired writers deal with historical incidents they relate that which they have seen or that which may have been told them, unless indeed the past is opened to them by revelation.

The details in the story of the flood are undoubtedly drawn from the experiences of the writer. Under a downpour of rain, likened to the opening of the heavens, a destructive torrent twenty-six feet deep or deeper would easily be formed. The writer of Genesis made a faithful report of the facts known to him concerning the flood. In other localities the depth of the water might have been more or less. In fact, the details of the flood are not known to us [Widtsoe, p. 127].

 

Entirely possible, but not likely to happen anytime soon.

 

Gospel Topics, Correlated Manuals, The Ensign v. intellectual agendas of Encyclopedia of Mormonism.

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Gospel Topics, Correlated Manuals, The Ensign v. intellectual agendas of Encyclopedia of Mormonism.

 

I'm sure that Elder Widtsoe had a "intellectual agenda". :lol:

 

Surely, God could have caused birds to fly with their bones made of solid gold, with their veins full of quicksilver, with their flesh heavier than lead, and with their wings exceedingly small. He did not, and that ought to show something. It is only in order to shield your ignorance that you put the Lord at every turn to the refuge of a miracle.

Galileo

 

But answer the question of what theological need do young children, the mentally disabled, nonhuman animals, and inanimate objects have of baptism?

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I'm sure that Elder Widtsoe had a "intellectual agenda". :lol:

 

 

Widstoe v the intellectual agenda of Encyclopedia of Mormonism

 

Esign, January 1998

 

Widtsoe of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles explained: “Latter-day Saints look upon the earth as a living organism, one which is gloriously filling ‘the measure of its creation.’ They look upon the flood as a baptism of the earth, symbolizing a cleansing of the impurities of the past, and the beginning of a new life. This has been repeatedly taught by the leaders of the Church. The deluge was an immersion of the earth in water.”

Edited by tonie
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The writer of Genesis made a faithful report of the facts known to him concerning the flood. In other localities the depth of the water might have been more or less. In fact, the details of the flood are not known to us [Widtsoe, p. 127]. How much less is less?

SEE http://scottwoodward.org/flood_noahspointofview.html

 

 Now answer my question of what theological need do young children, the mentally disabled, nonhuman animals, and inanimate objects have of baptism?

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The writer of Genesis made a faithful report of the facts known to him concerning the flood. In other localities the depth of the water might have been more or less. In fact, the details of the flood are not known to us [Widtsoe, p. 127]. How much less is less?

SEE http://scottwoodward.org/flood_noahspointofview.html

Now answer my question of what theological need do young children, the mentally disabled, nonhuman animals, and inanimate objects have of baptism?

You seem to fail to realize that both the encyclopedia of mormonism and scottward are selectively quoting Widstoe. Sadly, not of any apparent fault of your own, you also fail to realize that Widtsoe quote I used is taken from very same original Widtsoe publication relied on the the two sources you rely on. Woodard and Encyclopediaof Mormonism are selectively quoting Widtsoe, which has mislead you

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What is the symbolism of Noah and the flood? (Gospel Topics, lds.org)

God uses symbols to teach gospel truths. In the New Testament, Peter explained that the flood was a “like figure” or symbol of baptism (1 Peter 3:20–21). Just as the earth was immersed in water, so we must be baptized by water and by the Spirit before we can enter the celestial kingdom.

 

Baptism (Gospel Topics, lds.org)

Baptism by immersion in water by one having authority is the first saving ordinance of the gospel and is necessary for an individual to become a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and to receive eternal salvation.

 

Immersion

Immersion means being completely covered by water.

 

Questions:

Can a local flood be considered a symbol of baptism, especially considering that baptism means complete immersion?

 

Given that the “Flood of Noah” is symbol of complete immersion, and baptism is THE first saving ordinance, is the nature of the flood is critical to LDS Theology?

 

Does the statement “Just as the earth was immersed in water…” show the Church takes an official position on the flood?

Thechurch does take an official stance. The church believes the flood to have been a global event where the entire globe was covered in water. It was a complete immersion.

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Encyclopedia of Mormonism

THE GREAT FLOOD. The Old Testament records a flood that was just over fifteen cubits (sometimes assumed to be about twenty-six feet) deep and covered the entire landscape: "And all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered" (Gen. 7:19). Scientifically this account leaves many questions unanswered, especially how a measurable depth could cover mountains. Elder John A. Widtsoe, writing in 1943, offered this perspective: The fact remains that the exact nature of the flood is not known. We set up assumptions, based upon our best knowledge, but can go no further. We should remember that when inspired writers deal with historical incidents they relate that which they have seen or that which may have been told them, unless indeed the past is opened to them by revelation.

The details in the story of the flood are undoubtedly drawn from the experiences of the writer. Under a downpour of rain, likened to the opening of the heavens, a destructive torrent twenty-six feet deep or deeper would easily be formed. The writer of Genesis made a faithful report of the facts known to him concerning the flood. In other localities the depth of the water might have been more or less. In fact, the details of the flood are not known to us [Widtsoe, p. 127].

 

Entirely possible, but not likely to happen anytime soon.

The encyclopedia of Mormonism is not official doctrine of the church.

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You seem to fail to realize that both the encyclopedia of mormonism and scottward are selectively quoting Widstoe. Sadly, not of any apparent fault of your own, you also fail to realize that Widtsoe quote I used is taken from very same original Widtsoe publication relied on the the two sources you rely on. Woodard and Encyclopediaof Mormonism are selectively quoting Widtsoe, which has mislead you

 

Pace yourself.  You've just started a journey that should stretch for at least 60 or 70 pages.  At this rate, you'll burn out by page 5, just when things are starting to get good. 

 

You also shouldn't begin this journey unprepared.  I recommend this, this, this, this, this, this and this.  And this.

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Thechurch does take an official stance. The church believes the flood to have been a global event where the entire globe was covered in water. It was a complete immersion.

 

I'll ask you the same question of what theological need do young children, the mentally disabled, nonhuman animals, and inanimate objects have of baptism?

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This is silly. You can also ask how Isaac can be a symbol of Christ despite not being sacrificed or suffering for the sins of the world. Symbols are not exact. We also talk about the Earth being baptized by fire but we do not immerse people in literal fire to give them the Holy Ghost. If symbols have to be right the Molech cult is better at giving the Holy Ghost.

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Thechurch does take an official stance. The church believes the flood to have been a global event where the entire globe was covered in water. It was a complete immersion.

Sorry common sense says there was no global flood that covered all the mountains.

God does not use "magic" to accomplish his goals and thats what a global flood would take.

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From the Ensign, January 1998

The Flood and the Tower of Babel

"There is a third group of people—those who accept the literal message of the Bible regarding Noah, the ark, and the Deluge. Latter-day Saints belong to this group. ... We are assured that these events actually occurred by the multiple testimonies of God’s prophets."

 

Not all of us latter-day saints are in that group. The leadership may be (and we don't know that they are - I'll bet some Seventies and perhaps even a couple Apostles aren't and that's why they don't talk about it.) We in the church need to get over the idea that we all believe exactly the same - there is diversity of thought and belief and it's good, and we are hearing that message from the likes of Pres. Uchtdorf and Elder Christofferson, among others.

 

In answer to the question, I think the symbolism is like that of baptism - it's a symbol, symbols are symbols, they're not the real thing.

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Does the statement “Just as the earth was immersed in water…” show the Church takes an official position on the flood?

 

Read it again, "Peter explained that the flood was a “like figure” or symbol of baptism" "Also, Noah himself was a symbol of Christ." 

https://www.lds.org/topics/noah?lang=eng

 

Earth doesn't have to mean the whole planet, Earth is Hebrew also means region.

 

3 Nephi 9:11 And it came to pass that there was a voice heard among all the inhabitants of the earth, upon all the face of this land, crying:

Helaman 14:27 "that darkness should cover the face of the whole earth for the space of three days"

Alma 36:7 "whole earth did tremble beneath our fee"

3 Nephi 1:17 "all the people upon the face of the whole earth from the west to the east, both in the land north and in the land south, were so exceedingly astonished"

 

The Church does not have an official position

1. No Official Proclamation or Statement

2. Not clear in the Scriptures 

3. All sciences contradict a Global Flood, the evidence against a Global Flood is overwhelming.  

Edited by MormonFreeThinker
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