Do We Have Exaltation All (Or At Least Partly) Wrong?

[Ahab]

It is much more than that but if that works for you for now.

No there is no more to it than that. "God" is the kind of being we are, and the kind our Father is too, and although among our kind there are various degrees of good and evil, and a temporary division between mortality and immortality, when we're talking about God we're talking about our kind of being or one person specifically of our kind.

I'd just rather see us refer to a specific person by name, or title, and stop using God as a title. It's not like we "become" God or a god/God, because all of us already are the kind of being we refer to as God.

[VideoGameJunkie]

I can't even build anything out of LEGOS. It would be so rewarding and an accomplishment to be able to create worlds one day.

[Ahab]

I can't even build anything out of LEGOS. It would be so rewarding and an accomplishment to be able to create worlds one day.

I seriously doubt that you can't build anything out of LEGOS.

[VideoGameJunkie]

You'd be surprised how much I can't do with building stuff and artwork. Well I can build more LEGOS. haha if I just stick stuff together.

[teddyaware]

Just a few weeks before the recent church essay on exaltation (Becoming like God) came out, my children asked me about "getting our own worlds."  I told them there is so much we don't know, but that I didn't subscribe to that idea.  The essay seemed to confirm many of my feelings.  In particular, the quote:

 

"Latter-day Saints believe that God’s children will always worship Him. Our progression will never change His identity as our Father and our God. Indeed, our exalted, eternal relationship with Him will be part of the 'fulness of joy' He desires for us."

 

I know there is so much we won't know, but based on what we do, is it unreasonable to suggest that:

• We will always be God's children, and will worship him.
• Our eternal line of descendants will actually be His.  That is, our descendants will inhabit worlds, but worship him, not us.
• We may, in fact, be his children's children - that is descended from him, but not "first generation."

The last one takes a little more of a jump, but I have come to believe that while we will be "like Him" we will never "be Him."  That is, we will always be his children, and no one will ever worship us.

 

If an exalted man is filled to eternal fullness with all the power, glory and perfection of God, what should prevent that exalted man's spirit children from worshiping him? Is it because Heavenly Father would be jealous and offended? 

Based on the following description of the exalted in the Celestial Kingdom, again I ask,l what should prevent the spirit children of that perfected man from worshipping him?

19 ... and they (the exalted) shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.

20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, BECAUSE ALL THINGS ARE SUBJECT UNTO THEM . Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.

 

For those with eyes to see and ears to hear, the above verses say it all.

 

For crying out loud, even the faithful followers of the Saviour in the Book of Revelation are promised that the unfaithful (of this world) will be caused by God to worship before their feet...

9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. (Rev 3)

 

The only reason why we debate these things is because we don't read our scriptures; and if we do read them, we don't understand them.

Edited August 22, 2014 by teddyaware

[JLHPROF]

And that is the prime example of creating doctrine out of whole cloth and propagating the false teaching that God is not really God; that he has not achieved a fullness perfection.

 

McConkie repented of his earlier false teaching and came to a fullness of understanding on eternal truths. 

 

If God is personally progressing then exactly what doesn't he understand today that he will understand tomorrow?  The assumption that God has something to progress from is what demonstrates the fallacy of this position. 

 

Nah, I still think McConkie was just plain wrong and Brigham Young was right.  The view that there is a limit to existence is the fallacy.

Progression NEVER ends, even for God.

 

What doesn't God understand today that he will understand tomorrow?  Everything in kingdoms of a higher order than his current station.

[JLHPROF]

Good point. I believe we won't be the sole creators and gods of our own world, but we'll help Heavenly Father in making worlds and help run them.

 

I believe we will first help those above us create their worlds (as Christ helped Heavenly Father create his) and then one day we will create our own, probably after we've helped Christ create his first.  Eternal learning and progression.  Best principle of the gospel.

[JLHPROF]

Video, we have been taught the God's increase is found in his expansion of his glory through an ongoing creation of the universe.  You remember what was cited above, his work and his glory in derived by bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of humanity.  That is his "progress".  I agree with Elder Bruce R. McConkie's position on heresies in the Church:

 

"There are those who say that God is progressing in knowledge and is learning new truths.  This is false -- utterly, totally, and completely.   There is not one sliver of truth in it.   It grows out of a wholly twisted and incorrect view of the King Follet Sermon and of what is meant by eternal progression."

"God progresses in the sense that his kingdoms increase and his dominions multiply -- not in the sense that he learns new truths and discovers new laws.  God is not a student.  He is not a laboratory technician.  He is not postulating new theories on the basis of past experiences.  He has indeed graduated to that state of exaltation that consists of knowing all things and having all power.

"The life that God lives is named eternal life.  His name, one of them, is 'Eternal,' using that word as a noun and not as an adjective, and he uses that name to identify the type of life that he lives.  God's life is eternal life, and eternal life is god's life.  They are one and the same.  Eternal life is the goal we shall obtain if we believe and obey and walk uprightly before him.  And eternal life consists of two things.  It consists of life in the family unit, and, also, of inheriting, receiving, and possessing the fulness of the glory of the Father.  Anyone who has each of these things is an inheritor and possessor of the greatest of all gifts of God, which is eternal life.

"Eternal progression consists of living the kind of life God lives and of increasing in kingdoms and dominions everlastingly.  Why anyone should suppose that an infinite and eternal being, who has presided in our universe for almost 2,555,000,000 years, who made the sidereal heavens, whose creations are more numerous than the particles of the earth, and who is aware of the fall of every sparrow -- why anyone would suppose that such a being has more to learn and new truths to discover in the laboratories of eternity is totally beyond my comprehension.

"Will he one day learn something that will destroy the plan of salvation and turn man and the universe into an uncreated nothingness? Will he discover a better plan of salvation than the one he has already given to men in worlds without number?"

"The saving truth, as revealed to and taught, formally and officially, by the prophet Joseph Smith in the Lectures on Faith is that God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent.  He knows all things, he has all power, and he is everywhere present by the power of his Spirit.  And unless we know and believe this doctrine we cannot gain faith unto life and salvation."

 

And I don't agree with BRM's teachings, but with Brigham Young's:

 

 

It has been stated that I teach the doctrine that the Gods continue to increase in all their attributes to all eternity. Have you ever heard me teach such a doctrine? I have taught doctrine; but have I called in question any of the Gods? It has been stated that God our Father comprehends eternity, from eternity to eternity, all there is, all there was, all there ever can be about eternity, in and through it. When a person undertakes to establish such a doctrine, what does he do? He gives bounds to that eternity which he at the same time admits to be boundless. Admit such doctrine, and eternity flees away like the shadow of morning; and that is as much as I ever teach about it. Do I say that heavenly beings improve? I am not yet there; I do not know.  - Brigham Young

 

and the alternative is to head in the wrong direction:

 

 

To live as I am, without progress, is not life, in fact we may say that is impossible. There is no such principle in existence, neither can there be. All organized existence is in progress, either to an endless advancement in eternal perfections, or back to dissolution....

...If a man could ever arrive at the point that would put an end to the accumulation of life—the point at which he could increase no more, and advance no further, we should naturally say he commenced to decrease at the same point. Again, when he has gained the zenith of knowledge, wisdom, and power, it is the point at which he begins to retrograde; his natural abilities will begin to contract, and so he will continue to decrease, until all he knew is lost in the chaos of forgetfulness. As we understand naturally, this is the conclusion we must come to, if a termination to the increase of life and the acquisition of knowledge is true.  - Brigham Young

 

If eternity is truly without end and completely limitless, it is an actual logical impossibility for ANY being with the capability of acquiring new information to comprehend all of existence.  If you start with an empty container (no matter how infinitely large) and begin filling it with infinite knowledge, you can never fill the bucket OR run out of knowledge.  So it is with us.  So it is with God.

BRM is wrong on this one and should have reviewed D&C 130:8-11.  Being a Celestial being (like God) is just the beginning.

 

My personal belief can be summed up in Brigham's teaching that:

 

"Some men seem as if they could learn so much and no more. They appear to be bounded in their capacity for acquiring knowledge, as Brother Orson Pratt, has in theory, bounded the capacity of God. According to his theory, God can progress no further in knowledge and power; but the God that I serve is progressing eternally, and so are his children: they will increase to all eternity, if they are faithful. But there are some of our brethren who know just so much, and they seem to be able to learn no more."

 

and

 

"there will never be a time to all eternity when all the Gods of Eternity will cease advancing in power, knowledge, experience and glory, for if this was the case, eternity would cease to be and the Glory of God would come to an end, but all of Celestial beings will continue to advance in knowledge and power worlds without end."

[Ahab]

Nah, I still think McConkie was just plain wrong and Brigham Young was right. The view that there is a limit to existence is the fallacy.

Progression NEVER ends, even for God.

What doesn't God understand today that he will understand tomorrow? Everything in kingdoms of a higher order than his current station.

I agree with Storm Rider on this issue. Our Father just gets more of what ge already has and he already perfectly understands what he has.

[VideoGameJunkie]

I feel bad for the ministering angels and all those that can't have eternal increase. They are truly damned.

[The Nehor]

I feel bad for the ministering angels and all those that can't have eternal increase. They are truly damned.

 

Try not to worry too much. They are happy. As will everyone be who does not end up in Outer Darkness. Just not quite as happy as they could have been.

[Tacenda]

I feel bad for the ministering angels and all those that can't have eternal increase. They are truly damned.

How do you not see that ministering angels are where it's at? Only half kidding. But really, they are the people in action, not just sitting on thrones. They're doing the grunt work, they're the hands on people, helping more on earth then in heaven. They're service to God is by serving His children! I think we have too many that want to be like God and not enough that want to be Angels. Besides, I don't think when God said to follow him and be like Him, it mean't to be a God, IMNSHO.

[VideoGameJunkie]

Good points Tacenda, but sitting on thrones sounds mighty wonderful.

[The Nehor]

How do you not see that ministering angels are where it's at? Only half kidding. But really, they are the people in action, not just sitting on thrones. They're doing the grunt work, they're the hands on people, helping more on earth then in heaven. They're service to God is by serving His children! I think we have too many that want to be like God and not enough that want to be Angels. Besides, I don't think when God said to follow him and be like Him, it mean't to be a God, IMNSHO.

 

I think the thrones are largely symbolic. I am certainly not going to be spending much time on one assuming I have one. I have a whole Universe to experience. I was to dance near a supernova, ride a tidal wave around an entire planet, watch the fires of creation as Universes and galaxies form, play with antimatter and matter reactions, swim with leviathan, ride dinosaurs......why would anyone sit on a throne when you could be living?

[blooit]

Try not to worry too much. They are happy. As will everyone be who does not end up in Outer Darkness. Just not quite as happy as they could have been.

 

I don't know.  I think that there is almost no suffering more poignant than spending eternity wondering what might have been, and missing your family.  

[ERayR]

I feel bad for the ministering angels and all those that can't have eternal increase. They are truly damned.

 

Don't.  Believe it or not I have met some who do not want the responsibility of exaltation.

[ERayR]

Try not to worry too much. They are happy. As will everyone be who does not end up in Outer Darkness. Just not quite as happy as they could have been.

 

Do you think someone would be happier in a higher existence where they are uncomfortable or with something less where they are happy?

[ERayR]

I think the thrones are largely symbolic.

 

I am more for having a good recliner.

[mfbukowski]

I would like to suggest that there are ways to see these issues without objectifying them at all, or seeing one as "more accurate" than another.

Looking at this a day later, I could easily imagine myself commenting on this:  "So what?  Why would I want to do that?"

 

So I thought I would give myself an answer.   Pretty cool.  Now I get to have conversations completely with myself.   

Tsuzuki said:

 

In my view, the God that we will always worship is not a being at all, but rather the principles of Godliness, and the God that was once like us, and that we can become like, is more of a demiurge type figure. The God that was once like us and the Eternal God are so united as to be practically indistinguishable, but they're still different concepts. Exaltation is simply the literal embodiment of the Eternal Principles of Godliness.

 

I guess what I am saying is that in my opinion, it is just as "correct" to say that we worship the PRINCIPLES as much as it is correct to say we worship the PERSON of a God who was once "like us" who was "really" a "demiurge".

 

I guess ultimately I am agreeing here with T. in the rest of the post that essentially the Kingdom of God is within us and so is exaltation.  Words just get in the way, as Nehor also points out.

 

The temptation to think that one description is better than another is actually the whole problem.

[mfbukowski]

I am more for having a good recliner.

I am in the process of BECOMING a good recliner.  By achieving unity with my recliner, I achieve unity with the atoms of the entire universe, and complete loss of ego.

 

That is until someone turns off the TV and makes me go to bed. 

[The Nehor]

I am more for having a good recliner.

 

Hammock or bust!

[VideoGameJunkie]

I think the thrones will be real physical thrones because in a vision in the scriptures someone saw Heavenly Father sitting on his throne with flames coming from it. I forget what verse that's from. A good comfy recliner would be nice as well. haha but I also don't think we necessarily get our own throne, but that we share God's throne and have a place by his side. Then again, the thrones could be symbolic since I also think the crowns are symbolic as well. I don't believe we'll all be walking around heaven with a physical crown on our heads.

Edited August 22, 2014 by VideoGameJunkie

[Tsuzuki]

I guess what I am saying is that in my opinion, it is just as "correct" to say that we worship the PRINCIPLES as much as it is correct to say we worship the PERSON of a God who was once "like us" who was "really" a "demiurge".

 

I guess ultimately I am agreeing here with T. in the rest of the post that essentially the Kingdom of God is within us and so is exaltation.  Words just get in the way, as Nehor also points out.

 

The temptation to think that one description is better than another is actually the whole problem.

This is how united they are, and how united we can be as well.

[Jeanne]

You know what my biggest fear is???  Being an adminstering angel to my deceased husband and new wife.  Oh..religion shouldn't make you feel this way!

[Ahab]

You know what my biggest fear is??? Being an adminstering angel to my deceased husband and new wife. Oh..religion shouldn't make you feel this way!

It isn't religion that is making you feel that way.

In fact, nothing is "making" you feel that way.

So just stop feeling that way, why don't cha.