Do We Have Exaltation All (Or At Least Partly) Wrong?

[blooit]

Just a few weeks before the recent church essay on exaltation (Becoming like God) came out, my children asked me about "getting our own worlds."  I told them there is so much we don't know, but that I didn't subscribe to that idea.  The essay seemed to confirm many of my feelings.  In particular, the quote:

 

"Latter-day Saints believe that God’s children will always worship Him. Our progression will never change His identity as our Father and our God. Indeed, our exalted, eternal relationship with Him will be part of the 'fulness of joy' He desires for us."

 

I know there is so much we won't know, but based on what we do, is it unreasonable to suggest that:

• We will always be God's children, and will worship him.
• Our eternal line of descendants will actually be His.  That is, our descendants will inhabit worlds, but worship him, not us.
• We may, in fact, be his children's children - that is descended from him, but not "first generation."

The last one takes a little more of a jump, but I have come to believe that while we will be "like Him" we will never "be Him."  That is, we will always be his children, and no one will ever worship us.

[JLHPROF]

Just a few weeks before the recent church essay on exaltation (Becoming like God) came out, my children asked me about "getting our own worlds."  I told them there is so much we don't know, but that I didn't subscribe to that idea.  The essay seemed to confirm many of my feelings.  In particular, the quote:

 

"Latter-day Saints believe that God’s children will always worship Him. Our progression will never change His identity as our Father and our God. Indeed, our exalted, eternal relationship with Him will be part of the 'fulness of joy' He desires for us."

 

I know there is so much we won't know, but based on what we do, is it unreasonable to suggest that:

• We will always be God's children, and will worship him.
• Our eternal line of descendants will actually be His.  That is, our descendants will inhabit worlds, but worship him, not us.
• We may, in fact, be his children's children - that is descended from him, but not "first generation."

The last one takes a little more of a jump, but I have come to believe that while we will be "like Him" we will never "be Him."  That is, we will always be his children, and no one will ever worship us.

 

I don't find any doctrinal evidence to support your suppositions.  They are not ridiculous, but I find no scripture or prophetic teachings to back them up.

I subscribe to the traditional beliefs as espoused by Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, Joseph F. Smith etc.

That is, that when we become Gods in the Celestial worlds and receive our inheritance and our knowledge of the higher order of Kingdoms that we will do EXACTLY what our Heavenly Father has done.  I find it far more reasonable to believe that if Heavenly Father truly is our father that we grow up and do exactly  as he does, have our spirit children, create our own worlds and continue to progress eternally.

 

I disagree that we will never reach godhood and be worshipped as we worship our Heavenly Father.  Even Joseph Smith taught that there is no reason for the saints to be crowned (exalted) if they are not to rule and reign over their posterity.

Edited August 21, 2014 by JLHPROF

[Storm Rider]

Good Morning Blooit, I think this topic often carries some wild speculation from previous LDS - i.e. things such as having your own planet, etc.  

 

It has always been my personal belief that God will always be our God; for us and our progeny.  Our role in the Celestial kingdom is to do whatever we are asked to do in the ongoing creative process of expanding God's work.  Under such an umbrella of activity is covered a wide range of activity, but all of the activity glorifies our God.  Further, we become one with the Godhead as Christ is one with the Godhead.  In such a capacity it is easy to assume that there is no me or mine, but God's.  

[JLHPROF]

The actual flaw we have in our belief can be seen in:

 

It has always been my personal belief that God will always be our God; for us and our progeny.   

 

It is the idea that this means that we can't be Gods too that is false.  OF COURSE our Heavenly Father will always be above us, ahead of us and God to us.  But the false doctrine is that He doesn't move forward.  Just as we are moving to where He is now to do what He is doing now, Heavenly Father is continuing to grow, learn, and progress through the higher order of Kingdoms that a Celestial being is moving towards.

 

God will be our God/Father eternally, but when we get where he is he will be moving forward too.  We don't have to explain away our progression to godhood so that we can keep God stuck in our imaginary rut.  We just have to understand that he continues to progress as well (sorry Elder McConkie).

[blooit]

But if his work and his glory is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man...   couldn't it be possible that our exaltation means helping him in that work?  I mean, once you are omniscient and omnipotent, "progression" has to be basically the expansion of your progeny.  In this way, our growing family continues our progression, but he is always "the God."

 

I realize there is not definitive answer here, but I do wonder if the angle I've described isn't at least a valid possibility.  It would explain a lot of difficult concepts like why we don't discuss our heavenly mother and how God logistically begets an infinite number of spirits.

[ERayR]

The scriptures tell us that God's work and his glory is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.  We are to be like him and inherit what he does.  I strongly suspect that we will have or do whatever that takes.  So maybe we will have worlds of our own, maybe not.  It is not out of the realm of possibility.

[VideoGameJunkie]

I just want to be exalted, I don't care what it has or doesn't have. I just desire returning to my Heavenly Father and gaining eternal life and exaltation dearly.

[blooit]

I just want to be exalted, I don't care what it has or doesn't have. I just desire returning to my Heavenly Father and gaining eternal life and exaltation dearly.

 

...but then how could we sit and speculate about almost meaningless things that we will never resolve until well after this life?

 

party pooper  

[VideoGameJunkie]

Good point. I believe we won't be the sole creators and gods of our own world, but we'll help Heavenly Father in making worlds and help run them. Just like I believe when we're exalted we'll share Heavenly Father's throne instead of having separate thrones. Thrones and kingdoms is mentioned a lot in D&C 132 and in the temple marriage ceremony.

Edited August 21, 2014 by VideoGameJunkie

[Storm Rider]

The actual flaw we have in our belief can be seen in:

 

 

It is the idea that this means that we can't be Gods too that is false.  OF COURSE our Heavenly Father will always be above us, ahead of us and God to us.  But the false doctrine is that He doesn't move forward.  

 

And that is the prime example of creating doctrine out of whole cloth and propagating the false teaching that God is not really God; that he has not achieved a fullness perfection.

 

McConkie repented of his earlier false teaching and came to a fullness of understanding on eternal truths. 

 

If God is personally progressing then exactly what doesn't he understand today that he will understand tomorrow?  The assumption that God has something to progress from is what demonstrates the fallacy of this position. 

[VideoGameJunkie]

But we have eternal increase if we're exalted. Wouldn't that increase end once we become like Heavenly Father then if Heavenly Father doesn't progress anymore?

[mfbukowski]

Just a few weeks before the recent church essay on exaltation (Becoming like God) came out, my children asked me about "getting our own worlds."  I told them there is so much we don't know, but that I didn't subscribe to that idea.  The essay seemed to confirm many of my feelings.  In particular, the quote:

 

"Latter-day Saints believe that God’s children will always worship Him. Our progression will never change His identity as our Father and our God. Indeed, our exalted, eternal relationship with Him will be part of the 'fulness of joy' He desires for us."

 

I know there is so much we won't know, but based on what we do, is it unreasonable to suggest that:

• We will always be God's children, and will worship him.
• Our eternal line of descendants will actually be His.  That is, our descendants will inhabit worlds, but worship him, not us.
• We may, in fact, be his children's children - that is descended from him, but not "first generation."

The last one takes a little more of a jump, but I have come to believe that while we will be "like Him" we will never "be Him."  That is, we will always be his children, and no one will ever worship us.

You cannot become what you do not believe you can become, so you are completely right!

[mfbukowski]

But we have eternal increase if we're exalted. Wouldn't that increase end once we become like Heavenly Father then if Heavenly Father doesn't progress anymore?

Your great grandfather will always be your great grandfather no matter how many children you have.

[blooit]

You cannot become what you do not believe you can become, so you are completely right!

 

I am not stating we cannot become... but that perhaps we WILL not.  I think there is a slight difference.  

 

 

Your great grandfather will always be your great grandfather no matter how many children you have.

 

God doesn't always treat it this way.  The Old Testament is full of reference to the "sons of Abraham" which we become through living the gospel for example.  Many times God treats descendants and children as virtually the same thing.

[Storm Rider]

But we have eternal increase if we're exalted. Wouldn't that increase end once we become like Heavenly Father then if Heavenly Father doesn't progress anymore?

 

Video, we have been taught the God's increase is found in his expansion of his glory through an ongoing creation of the universe.  You remember what was cited above, his work and his glory in derived by bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of humanity.  That is his "progress".  I agree with Elder Bruce R. McConkie's position on heresies in the Church:

 

"There are those who say that God is progressing in knowledge and is learning new truths.  This is false -- utterly, totally, and completely.   There is not one sliver of truth in it.   It grows out of a wholly twisted and incorrect view of the King Follet Sermon and of what is meant by eternal progression."

"God progresses in the sense that his kingdoms increase and his dominions multiply -- not in the sense that he learns new truths and discovers new laws.  God is not a student.  He is not a laboratory technician.  He is not postulating new theories on the basis of past experiences.  He has indeed graduated to that state of exaltation that consists of knowing all things and having all power.

"The life that God lives is named eternal life.  His name, one of them, is 'Eternal,' using that word as a noun and not as an adjective, and he uses that name to identify the type of life that he lives.  God's life is eternal life, and eternal life is god's life.  They are one and the same.  Eternal life is the goal we shall obtain if we believe and obey and walk uprightly before him.  And eternal life consists of two things.  It consists of life in the family unit, and, also, of inheriting, receiving, and possessing the fulness of the glory of the Father.  Anyone who has each of these things is an inheritor and possessor of the greatest of all gifts of God, which is eternal life.

"Eternal progression consists of living the kind of life God lives and of increasing in kingdoms and dominions everlastingly.  Why anyone should suppose that an infinite and eternal being, who has presided in our universe for almost 2,555,000,000 years, who made the sidereal heavens, whose creations are more numerous than the particles of the earth, and who is aware of the fall of every sparrow -- why anyone would suppose that such a being has more to learn and new truths to discover in the laboratories of eternity is totally beyond my comprehension.

"Will he one day learn something that will destroy the plan of salvation and turn man and the universe into an uncreated nothingness? Will he discover a better plan of salvation than the one he has already given to men in worlds without number?"

"The saving truth, as revealed to and taught, formally and officially, by the prophet Joseph Smith in the Lectures on Faith is that God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent.  He knows all things, he has all power, and he is everywhere present by the power of his Spirit.  And unless we know and believe this doctrine we cannot gain faith unto life and salvation."

[Alan]

Just a few weeks before the recent church essay on exaltation (Becoming like God) came out, my children asked me about "getting our own worlds."  I told them there is so much we don't know, but that I didn't subscribe to that idea.  The essay seemed to confirm many of my feelings.  In particular, the quote:

 

"Latter-day Saints believe that God’s children will always worship Him. Our progression will never change His identity as our Father and our God. Indeed, our exalted, eternal relationship with Him will be part of the 'fulness of joy' He desires for us."

 

I know there is so much we won't know, but based on what we do, is it unreasonable to suggest that:

• We will always be God's children, and will worship him.
• Our eternal line of descendants will actually be His.  That is, our descendants will inhabit worlds, but worship him, not us.
• We may, in fact, be his children's children - that is descended from him, but not "first generation."

The last one takes a little more of a jump, but I have come to believe that while we will be "like Him" we will never "be Him."  That is, we will always be his children, and no one will ever worship us.

 

Absolutely spot on. This is my view and has been for many years.

I have suggested before that the being we call Father is our father in the sense that Abraham is. We are his descendents and there may be countless generations between him and us. However, he is the Father, and it is him we pray to and him we worship.

It will be no different for our off-spring. They too will worship him, pray to him, seek him, adore him..... and not us.

As I've said before, we will be engaged in the family business (Moses 1:39) but the Father will always be the owner and CEO. We may, because of our faithfulness, be given responsibilities and even have a seat on the board. We may, by assignment, get involved in projects such as creation (consider Adam/Michael's role) and even given some decision making resposibilities, but the Father is in charge of the business and will remain so.

I am personally convinced that Michael was not the only one involved in the creation. There was a lot to do. He in turn would have made assignments to others, possibly you and I.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Alan

[Tsuzuki]

In my view, the God that we will always worship is not a being at all, but rather the principles of Godliness, and the God that was once like us, and that we can become like, is more of a demiurge type figure. The God that was once like us and the Eternal God are so united as to be practically indistinguishable, but they're still different concepts. Exaltation is simply the literal embodiment of the Eternal Principles of Godliness.

[ERayR]

I am not stating we cannot become... but that perhaps we WILL not.  I think there is a slight difference.  

 

 

 

God doesn't always treat it this way.  The Old Testament is full of reference to the "sons of Abraham" which we become through living the gospel for example.  Many times God treats descendants and children as virtually the same thing.

What do you think it means to become a son of Abraham?

[mfbukowski]

In my view, the God that we will always worship is not a being at all, but rather the principles of Godliness, and the God that was once like us, and that we can become like, is more of a demiurge type figure. The God that was once like us and the Eternal God are so united as to be practically indistinguishable, but they're still different concepts. Exaltation is simply the literal embodiment of the Eternal Principles of Godliness.

I would like to suggest that there are ways to see these issues without objectifying them at all, or seeing one as "more accurate" than another.

[The Nehor]

My megalomania insists that I will rule the Universe, be worshipped, and that the stars themselves will obey my every whim.

More seriously anything anyone reasons out about the next life that does not come from revelation is almost certainly (roughly 99.99999999999999%) We do not have enough of the premeses or brainpower to even try to figure it out logically. I imagine God finds it incredibly cute when we try.

[blooit]

What do you think it means to become a son of Abraham?

 

Living by the Abrahamic covenant.

[6EQUJ5]

What do you think it means to become a son of Abraham?

 

I think it means being brought into the blessings of the Abrahamic covenant.

[Ahab]

The whole "God" thing is greatly misunderstood by many people, including many who are LDS.

I propose that we dispense with the word "God" altogether while understanding that it simply refers to our kind of being, the kind of being we already are. When you want to refer to our Father or any other person, specifically, please just refer to him by his name, or in the case of our Father as "Father".

That way maybe some of the misunderstandings about "God" will be alleviated.

[ERayR]

Living by the Abrahamic covenant.

 

I think it means being brought into the blessings of the Abrahamic covenant.

 

Good now what is the Abrahamic covenant.

[ERayR]

The whole "God" thing is greatly misunderstood by many people, including many who are LDS.

I propose that we dispense with the word "God" altogether while understanding that it simply refers to our kind of being, the kind of being we already are. When you want to refer to our Father or any other person, specifically, please just refer to him by his name, or in the case of our Father as "Father".

That way maybe some of the misunderstandings about "God" will be alleviated.

It is much more than that but if that works for you for now.