For Dan And Other Middle East Experts

[rpn]

 

I have been reading about the Middle East and anti Seminism's resurgence in Europe and other places in the world.    I have friends who have crossed the Israeli borders on multiple occasions and observed Israel's very poor treatment of Palestinians (they describe it as people who look palestinian). 

 

What I wondered is how those who recognize the unacceptably harsh treatment in daily life AND the Problem as defined in the video above, should respond to current issues.

 

I guess I'm wondering if you who know the middle east better than I do, see something that americans should be urging Israeli or the US government to do.

 

How should lds members view the issues, or is there any distinct LDS or doctrinal impact of the geopolitical situation?

[strappinglad]

May I suggest a look into Israel pre 1950 in Wikipedia. Get a broad view of just what has gone on in the area for the last 4000 years. The Mormons settled in several areas in the US, each time being booted out. They finally picked a spot nobody wanted, and still they were not left in peace. I wonder how history might have worked out had Britain chosen a different place to settle the Jews , like the deserts of the Sudan or the jungles of Guinea or Patagonia. The modern history of the world is filled with conflict in places where the Powers at the time arbitrarily set up boundaries and divided long held ethnic areas. The Bosnia wars were that type of problem.

[Stargazer]

Israel's poor treatment of Palestinians?  In what way?  And how does Israel's less than perfect record in this department compare to other Middle Eastern countries?

 

Let's examine some facts.

 

Question: In which countries in the Middle East are both Muslim and Jewish persons full citizens with the right to vote?

Answer: Israel and only Israel

 

Question: In which countries in the Middle East do both Jews and Muslims serve side-by-side in the armed forces?

Answer: Israel and only Israel

 

Question: How many countries in the Middle East have both Jews and Muslims in their national legislatures?

Answer: Israel and only Israel

 

Question: How many countries in the Middle East have both Jews and Muslims in their highest courts?

Answer: Israel and only Israel

 

Question: How many countries in the Middle East give women full equal rights?

Answer: Israel and only Israel

 

Question: How many countries in the Middle East permit LGBT persons to serve in the armed forces?

Answer: Israel and only Israel

 

The video you posted is very very clear and it is the absolute truth.  The problem is simply that one side does not want peace, or only wants it long enough to enable it to stock up on weapons so it can attack again.

 

And of course, to the leftist world, this is all Israel's fault.  They are supposed to permit Hamas firing thousands of rockets into Israel and not do a darned thing about it.  They are supposed to permit terrorist actions of all sorts to occur, and never do anything to prevent them.  This is madness.

[Stargazer]

Let's try the "One State Solution"!!

 

[The Nehor]

Israel's poor treatment of Palestinians?  In what way?  And how does Israel's less than perfect record in this department compare to other Middle Eastern countries?

 

Let's examine some facts.

 

Question: In which countries in the Middle East are both Muslim and Jewish persons full citizens with the right to vote?

Answer: Israel and only Israel

 

Question: In which countries in the Middle East do both Jews and Muslims serve side-by-side in the armed forces?

Answer: Israel and only Israel

 

Question: How many countries in the Middle East have both Jews and Muslims in their national legislatures?

Answer: Israel and only Israel

 

Question: How many countries in the Middle East have both Jews and Muslims in their highest courts?

Answer: Israel and only Israel

 

Question: How many countries in the Middle East give women full equal rights?

Answer: Israel and only Israel

 

Question: How many countries in the Middle East permit LGBT persons to serve in the armed forces?

Answer: Israel and only Israel

 

The video you posted is very very clear and it is the absolute truth.  The problem is simply that one side does not want peace, or only wants it long enough to enable it to stock up on weapons so it can attack again.

 

And of course, to the leftist world, this is all Israel's fault.  They are supposed to permit Hamas firing thousands of rockets into Israel and not do a darned thing about it.  They are supposed to permit terrorist actions of all sorts to occur, and never do anything to prevent them.  This is madness.

 

This is like claiming black people were equal in the 1920s in the US because there were black doctors and they had the right to vote. Israel is hell on the ground where the two people mix and the Palestinians get the worst of it. There are some Palestinians in positions of authority but the majority are rigorously controlled. I get that it is a safety issue but it is also exacerbating the issue.

 

Hamas fires inaccurate crap rockets that can only hit people by accident and Israel responds by killing hundreds. Israel is not an innocent victim. The Palestinians aren't innocent either. I figure they deserve each other. I don't like people defending Israel....I am worried the US and other nations might become the next Israel and persecute others and create their own enemies while also sanctimoniously claiming we are not as bad as those we fight (Nephites at the end?). Habakkuk (and many other OT prophets) was reassured that the Israelites were better then the surrounding nations but God still punished the Israelites by letting the surrounding nations occupy the land.

 

Let's try the "One State Solution"!!

 

I prefer the 317,000,000 state solution:

 

http://www.theonion.com/articles/everyone-in-middle-east-given-own-country-in-31700,36484/

[Stargazer]

This is like claiming black people were equal in the 1920s in the US because there were black doctors and they had the right to vote. Israel is hell on the ground where the two people mix and the Palestinians get the worst of it. There are some Palestinians in positions of authority but the majority are rigorously controlled. I get that it is a safety issue but it is also exacerbating the issue.

Israel is hell on the ground where the two mix? Where do you get this information?

 

Hamas fires inaccurate crap rockets that can only hit people by accident and Israel responds by killing hundreds. Israel is not an innocent victim.

So, if your next door neighbor took a potshot at your house every day, would you just consider the fact that besides him using an inaccurate rifle and couldn't hit the broad side of a barn, and just blow it off?

Yes, and Hama claims that it is only targetting military targets, and are so sorry that their rockets sometimes hit civilians. Except that when they aren't saying that to some news outlets, to others they say they are intentionally targetting civilians. In the past several weeks Hamas has fired 10,000+ rockets into Israel. If it weren't for Iron Dome, which intercepts those missiles which are judged to actually be about to hit populated areas, the casualty count in Israel would be in the hundreds, too. Crap rockets are just as deadly as quality rockets when they hit a target, and you don't think that with firing 10,000+ of them, quite a few wouldn't have hit paydirt?

So, genius, how do you think Israel is supposed to stop Hamas from firing missiles into Gaza? Ask politely? Offer them money? Israel didn't attack Gaza until Hamas had been firing rockets for a week or two, and since Hamas stores its weapons in mosques and schools, and fires them from schools, mosques, hospitals and populated areas, you think that it's the Israelis who have blood on their hands? What do you think it would take to stop Israel's incursion into Gaza? The answer is: stop firing missiles into Israel. And what do you think would happen if Israel decided to just leave Gaza and go home? The answer is: Hamas would continue shooting rockets into Israel. What do you think would happen if Israel left all those fancy concrete-lined tunnels in place? You know, the ones that Hamas uses to sneak into Israel to carry out terrorist attacks with? That's right! More terrorist attacks.

It is tragic that the Palestinians in Gaza have to suffer due to the actions Israel had to take to defend itself. I am afraid however, that this is connected somewhat with the fact that Hamas was elected as the Palestinian Authority. And I think it is pathetic for otherwise intelligent people to decry the necessity of destroying homes, schools and mosques, when those structures are being used to carry out those attacks.

Note, too, that the IDF is trying its best to keep civilian casualties as low as possible. Before they attack, they drop leaflets, send text messages, and use other media to tell civilians to leave the area. However, Hamas does not want them to leave. Dead civilians are in fact completely acceptable, even desirable, to Hamas. They will be used as media pawns. If this wasn't the case, then Hamas wouldn't be firing rockets into Israel from populated areas and public buildings!

 

The Palestinians aren't innocent either. I figure they deserve each other.

Most Palestinians are indeed innocent and want nothing more than to live in peace. A significant minority of them, however, prefer death and blood. Why should the majority suffer for the bloodthirstyness of the minority?

 

I don't like people defending Israel....

Well, I don't like people people assuming the default position of blaming Israel.

 

I am worried the US and other nations might become the next Israel and persecute others and create their own enemies while also sanctimoniously claiming we are not as bad as those we fight (Nephites at the end?). Habakkuk (and many other OT prophets) was reassured that the Israelites were better then the surrounding nations but God still punished the Israelites by letting the surrounding nations occupy the land.

What are you worried about, anyway? If you can't see that with the founding of the State of Israel in 1947/8 we entered the end stage of this Millennium, I don't know what to tell you.

I would imagine that you've read the Book of Revelation, and understand what will soon happen in Israel?

The fact that the entire mainstream media in this country, and most of the governments in Europe and the Middle East are all rocking the same Blame Israel First rhetoric, well, this should tell you something. It's building to a climax, and it won't be pretty.

[Tiki]

Israel has every right to defend it itself.

http://www.wnd.com/2014/08/hand-of-god-sent-missile-into-sea/

[The Nehor]

Israel is hell on the ground where the two mix? Where do you get this information?

 

From Palestinians and Israelis.

 

 

So, if your next door neighbor took a potshot at your house every day, would you just consider the fact that besides him using an inaccurate rifle and couldn't hit the broad side of a barn, and just blow it off?

 

No, but I doubt I would call in an air strike on his entire neighborhood either.

 

 

Yes, and Hama claims that it is only targetting military targets, and are so sorry that their rockets sometimes hit civilians. Except that when they aren't saying that to some news outlets, to others they say they are intentionally targetting civilians. In the past several weeks Hamas has fired 10,000+ rockets into Israel. If it weren't for Iron Dome, which intercepts those missiles which are judged to actually be about to hit populated areas, the casualty count in Israel would be in the hundreds, too. Crap rockets are just as deadly as quality rockets when they hit a target, and you don't think that with firing 10,000+ of them, quite a few wouldn't have hit paydirt?

 

Hamas is a terrorist organization. I did not defend them. I just think Israel is also handling the situation very badly.

 

 

So, genius, how do you think Israel is supposed to stop Hamas from firing missiles into Gaza? Ask politely? Offer them money? Israel didn't attack Gaza until Hamas had been firing rockets for a week or two, and since Hamas stores its weapons in mosques and schools, and fires them from schools, mosques, hospitals and populated areas, you think that it's the Israelis who have blood on their hands? What do you think it would take to stop Israel's incursion into Gaza? The answer is: stop firing missiles into Israel. And what do you think would happen if Israel decided to just leave Gaza and go home? The answer is: Hamas would continue shooting rockets into Israel. What do you think would happen if Israel left all those fancy concrete-lined tunnels in place? You know, the ones that Hamas uses to sneak into Israel to carry out terrorist attacks with? That's right! More terrorist attacks.

 

Well, they could try repenting so that God softens the hearts of their enemies rather then violent and excessive retribution.

 

 

It is tragic that the Palestinians in Gaza have to suffer due to the actions Israel had to take to defend itself. I am afraid however, that this is connected somewhat with the fact that Hamas was elected as the Palestinian Authority. And I think it is pathetic for otherwise intelligent people to decry the necessity of destroying homes, schools and mosques, when those structures are being used to carry out those attacks.

Note, too, that the IDF is trying its best to keep civilian casualties as low as possible. Before they attack, they drop leaflets, send text messages, and use other media to tell civilians to leave the area. However, Hamas does not want them to leave. Dead civilians are in fact completely acceptable, even desirable, to Hamas. They will be used as media pawns. If this wasn't the case, then Hamas wouldn't be firing rockets into Israel from populated areas and public buildings!

 

The IDF is well aware of its public image but I do not believe for a second that the average soldier goes home worried about those they kill. I almost said innocent but there are very few innocents on either side.

 

 

Most Palestinians are indeed innocent and want nothing more than to live in peace. A significant minority of them, however, prefer death and blood. Why should the majority suffer for the bloodthirstyness of the minority?

Well, I don't people people assuming the default position of blaming Israel.

 

I don't know about the majority of them being innocent. The reason they keep voting in Hamas is that they see no alternative. Talking with Israel doesn't work. Can you imagine a moderate government would solve the problem when dealing with the hawkish Israelis?

 

I don't consider blaming Israel to be the default position. I think blaming both is the default position. I agree with the scriptures that the wicked punish the wicked.

 

 

What are you worried about, anyway? If you can't see that with the founding of the State of Israel in 1947/8 we entered the end stage of this Millennium, I don't know what to tell you.

I would imagine that you've read the Book of Revelation, and understand what will soon happen in Israel?

The fact that the entire mainstream media in this country, and most of the governments in Europe and the Middle East are all rocking the same Blame Israel First rhetoric, well, this should tell you something. It's building to a climax, and it won't be pretty.

 

I hope it is not a precursor to Armageddon but Armageddon is also the wicked punishing the wicked not the righteous holed up surrounded by their enemies until God delivers them. It is the wicked being punished and then visited by their Redeemer once the bitter cup is drunk so that redemption can be taught to the survivors. I see nothing in scripture to argue that the Israelis are the "good guys" in the Last Days. They might qualify as the "not quite as bad as their neighbors" but I see no reason to fund them for that.

 

Usually people making your argument are ardent supporters of Israel and supporting them financially and militarily. I would ask you the question you asked me: "What will soon happen in Israel?" Do you think sending them missiles will help prophecy be fulfilled? Why bother?

[volgadon]

Israel is hell on the ground where the two people mix and the Palestinians get the worst of it.

 

 

Have you been there?

[volgadon]

The IDF is well aware of its public image but I do not believe for a second that the average soldier goes home worried about those they kill. I almost said innocent but there are very few innocents on either side.

 

 

Then you really don't know our soldiers.

[volgadon]

Israel's poor treatment of Palestinians?  In what way?

 

 

In a lot of ways, sadly. Not all is deliberate or malicious, though.

[volgadon]

What I wondered is how those who recognize the unacceptably harsh treatment in daily life AND the Problem as defined in the video above, should respond to current issues.

 

 

 

Rpn, that is a very reasonable question. As an Israeli church member, I'll be happy to share my perspective once I finish my final.

[Stargazer]

From Palestinians and Israelis.

Who, precisely? I myself don't know any personally, but I do listen daily to the Michael Medved show. Medved, being a Jew, and having relatives who live in Israel, and he himself visits there at least annually, reports something somewhat different from what you said. Your words suggest that the Jews and Muslims in Israel are in roughly the same relationship as black vs whites were in the 1950's, and that there is constant conflict between Israeli Jews and Israeli Arabs. Perhaps you would not accept the report of someone who lives there, but Medved and his brother both indicate that while there are tensions, the two groups get along largely OK. And aside from outside terrorists, the streets are entirely safe.

 

 

No, but I doubt I would call in an air strike on his entire neighborhood either.

Good job taking a metaphor and turning it into an absurdity. The response you're looking for in this case is to arm yourself, beat down his door, and while holding your neighbor at gunpoint search his house, confiscating all firearms.

 

Hamas is a terrorist organization. I did not defend them. I just think Israel is also handling the situation very badly.

 

So you say that Israel is handling 10,000 rockets fired at them very badly? And this is your solution:

 

Well, they could try repenting so that God softens the hearts of their enemies rather then violent and excessive retribution.

I suppose you're looking at the case of the Anti-Nephi-Lehies, who passively consented to their brother Lamanites murdering them. And this did, of course, result in their enemies losing their blood-lust. Nice try, but it is the declared objective of Hamas to destroy Israel, and to kill as many Jews as possible.

And I will remind you that except for the Warsaw uprising in 1944, the Jews of Europe went passively into the concentration camps. Their captors did not stop killing them until they had run out of Jews to kill. Oh, but perhaps the Jews hadn't repented enough. That must have been it.

 

 

The IDF is well aware of its public image but I do not believe for a second that the average soldier goes home worried about those they kill. I almost said innocent but there are very few innocents on either side.

Do you know any of them? Do you know anything about the attempts of the IDF to minimize casualties? And that even while the fighting continues Israel continues to deliver humanitarian aid to the people in Gaza?

Myths and Facts about the Gaza War

 

I don't know about the majority of them being innocent. The reason they keep voting in Hamas is that they see no alternative. Talking with Israel doesn't work. Can you imagine a moderate government would solve the problem when dealing with the hawkish Israelis?

You seem to be full of knowledge that I don't believe you actually know. They see no alternative? Hamas won the election largely because of voter intimidation. It is unlikely to have been "free and open".

What is it about talking with Israel that doesn't work? After the 1967 war, Israel gave Sinai back to Egypt in return for a promise of peace. Israel gave Gaza back to the Palestinians as a peace gesture. So what did the Gazansa want to talk to Israel about that the Israelis didn't want to listen to? I know they wouldn't permit the importation of weapons. Even Egypt got angry about the weapons trafficking and closed their border with Gaza. Hamas just wanted to import more rockets and those darned Israelis wouldn't let them? That's what the talk was about?

 

I don't consider blaming Israel to be the default position.

And yet that seems to be what you're doing

 

I think blaming both is the default position. I agree with the scriptures that the wicked punish the wicked.

You think that in every conflict between humans it's always both their faults? Blame both Japan and the US for Pearl Harbor? If only the US had just shut up about the Japanese raping, murdering and pillaging China, everything would have been fine? Blame both Al Qaida and the US for 9/11? If only we had converted to Islam en masse then it would not have happened... or if we had not been supporting Israel... or if we had not supported Saudi Arabia when Saddam invaded Kuwait... or what else? Then we would have avoided airplanes crashing into the twin towers?

 

So, how exactly was it Poland's fault that the Nazis invaded them in 1939?

 

I hope it is not a precursor to Armageddon but Armageddon is also the wicked punishing the wicked not the righteous holed up surrounded by their enemies until God delivers them. It is the wicked being punished and then visited by their Redeemer once the bitter cup is drunk so that redemption can be taught to the survivors. I see nothing in scripture to argue that the Israelis are the "good guys" in the Last Days. They might qualify as the "not quite as bad as their neighbors" but I see no reason to fund them for that.

 

Usually people making your argument are ardent supporters of Israel and supporting them financially and militarily. I would ask you the question you asked me: "What will soon happen in Israel?" Do you think sending them missiles will help prophecy be fulfilled? Why bother?

You're not following history very well. Israel is not now and has not been the aggressor is the Middle East conflict. Israel, even when acting pre-emptively, has invariably been reacting to actual violence initiated or about to be initiated by actors with lethal intent. Every single Arab government and terrorist organization in the Middle East knows exactly how to prevent Israel from attacking them, and that method is to not attack or threaten to attack Israel. Even in the case of Israel's destruction of Saddam's Osirak reactor in 1981 was preventative, as they believed that it was intended to produce nuclear weapons.

It is not the sending of missiles to Israel that will help fulfill prophecy. I see two possible scenarios. The first is the breakdown of Israel's defensive alliance with the United States -- which is clearly being undermined by the left in this country (at the risk of being seen to be going too political for the forum, let's leave that undiscussed). The second is a possible alliance between Arab states to fulfill their desire to see the Jewish incursion in Palestine eliminated. Or, for that matter, both!

As the extreme Islamists begin to become more important, and the dream for a reestablishing of the Caliphate becomes stronger, religious fervor may eventually overcome fear of Israel's nuclear arsenal. Once that happens, we may see the beginning of the tribulation.

Israel does not threaten its neighbors, it merely asks to be left alone. Israel would prefer trade with its neighbors to warfare, but its neighbors appear to prefer the warfare. What can Israel do against that, except prepare to fight?

I've been following this conflict in great detail since I was a teenager, even before I became a member of the LDS church. The plain fact of the matter is this: Israel is in the right; its foes are in the wrong. If you cannot see this, then I don't know how to explain it to you.

[bcuzbcuz]

palestine-israel.docpalestine-israel.doc

 

I have been reading about the Middle East and anti Seminism's resurgence in Europe and other places in the world.    I have friends who have crossed the Israeli borders on multiple occasions and observed Israel's very poor treatment of Palestinians (they describe it as people who look palestinian). 

 

What I wondered is how those who recognize the unacceptably harsh treatment in daily life AND the Problem as defined in the video above, should respond to current issues.

 

I guess I'm wondering if you who know the middle east better than I do, see something that americans should be urging Israeli or the US government to do.

 

How should lds members view the issues, or is there any distinct LDS or doctrinal impact of the geopolitical situation?

Anytime someone tells me the "problem is easy" I know they're either lying or being purposefully deceptive. This video should qualify as both.

Prager convieniently leaves out details surrounding the 1948 conflict, such as the Deir Yassin massacre, or for that matter, the whole issue of the establishment of the state of Israel.

II would suggest throwing into the mix of this "simple problem", a few statistics, easily obtained from www.ifamericansknew.org/

(I only wish I knew how to move graphics to this page)

 

palestine-israel.doc

[Storm Rider]

I find the excuse that because Palestinians rockets aren't accurate they should therefore be ignored by Israel and Israelis to be a preposterous position.  It just boggles the mind that supposedly thinking individuals actually repeat this gibberish.  

 

I was talking two weeks ago with a Lebanese fellow regarding the Palestinian issues.  He stunned me by saying that having lived for 20 years in Qatar his solution is to exterminate them.  He spoke far more harshly then I have ever heard him speak and out of complete impatience with the entire conflict. This is not a conflict with the objective for peace; it is conflict out of a desire to destroy and annihilate one side - Israel.  

 

If I could do anything I would effect that the world:  1)  builds infrastructure and housing for Palestinians, 2)  Israel create an adequate fund to reimburse the homes that were taken from Palestinians in 1948,  3)  remove/transfer ownership of Jewish housing from the West Bank that has been built illegally, 4)  provide small business loans or funding to create jobs and begin to establish a stable economy in Palestine, and  5)  Lastly, I would set both parties down and announce truly monstrous, draconian repercussions if anyone shoots a rocket, blows themselves up, and causes any other physically violent action.  These policies, whatever they are chosen to be, would be in place for five years or until such time it is demonstrated that both sides are willing to live in peace.

 

Islam is a beautiful religion; however, there is a certain segment that uses Islam to achieve political goals.  A example, just look at the manner in which ISIS is attempting to set up a caliphate in Iraq; we can expect to see most radicals seek the same end if given the opportunity.  Most Muslims are against these type of actions; however, it causes problems for many Muslim; it causes an internal conflict for them.  These radicals use specific subsets of the Qur'an but it excludes the majority of it.  I have yet to hear a single Muslim provide a case for condemning these radicals.  It remains a challenge for Muslim moderates. 

 

I cannot tell you how many Palestinians I have met with in their own offices who have had a picture or map of Palestine on their office wall; in everyone one of them Israel does not exist.  It simply is gone.  I have never met a Jewish person with anything similar.  Why?

[Alan]

While most Palestinians are Muslims, many are not. There is a sizeable Christian community in Palestine.

Stop simply equating a nationality (Palestinians) with a religion (Islam).

[rpn]

deleted

[Ahab]

They're either going to get to the point where all of them will get tired of fighting each other so instead choose to live in peace, or somebody is going to come down here and put an end to their wars for them so they won't be able to continue to fight here.

[Storm Rider]

Alan, less than 4% of the Palestinian Arab population is Christian. It seems rather disingenuous to attempt to color them as a significant minority.  I have been living in the Middle East for almost five years; believe me, Palestine is Muslim.

[Stargazer]

Anytime someone tells me the "problem is easy" I know they're either lying or being purposefully deceptive. This video should qualify as both.

Prager convieniently leaves out details surrounding the 1948 conflict, such as the Deir Yassin massacre, or for that matter, the whole issue of the establishment of the state of Israel.

So, let us hear the complicated version.

You do have a point, albeit a small one, when it comes to massacres. I would posit, however, that the Jewish population suffered far more massacres than they ever dished out on Palestinians. And then we come to murders by Palestinians committed on Palestinians, specifically because they didn't feel like oppressing Israelis.

And so, what is it about the establishment of Israel that you want to bring up? That it was established at all? That other countries agreed to establish it (without reference to the Palestinians)?

II would suggest throwing into the mix of this "simple problem", a few statistics, easily obtained from www.ifamericansknew.org/

Very nice.

Let's start with this: "131 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 1,986 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000."

OK, let's grant this statistic for the moment.

The question comes to mind as to what was it that caused the 131 Israeli children deaths. Got an answer? I do. They died when Palestinians sent terrorist rockets flying into Israel, or when terrorist attackers set off bombs or shot up schools and so on. In short, they died because Hamas (among other terrorist organizations), deliberately attacked Israeli civilian targets.

How did the Palestinian children die? Did Israel bomb Gaza etc just because they felt like it, or wanted to kill Palestinians on a given day, as a policy decision? Not hardly. They were caught in the midst of Israel's attempts to stop terrorist activities, all because the terrorists insist upon using civilian populations as human shields. Israel, on the other hand, builds bomb shelters and defensive systems to reduce civilian casualties while they are being rocketed, and keeps their military bases distinct from civilian centers. Their goal is to keep their own citizens as safe as possible, while Hamas's goal is to kill as many Israelis as possible and use their own peoples' casualties as political points.

Statistics can be very useful. Statistics can also be used to lie and mislead. The statistics on your web page there are of the latter variety. Do you see why it might be in Hamas' interest that as many civilians as possible are killed by Israel? Are you aware that in a recent 72-hour cease fire Hamas used the opportunity to murder 42 Palestinians for collaboration with Israel, and then cynically added their names to the list of those killed by Israel military action? As to "1,182 Israelis and at least 8,845 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000," do we know how many of those 8,845 were killed while serving as fighters against Israel? No, because it isn't advantageous for Hamas and its apologizers to get real with the real numbers.

The statistics on that site are about as valid for determining who is in the wrong in the Middle East as the numbers of Japanese who were killed in WW2. Something like 3 million Japanese died in WW2, 1/3 of which were civilian. US dead in the Pacific amounted to around 180,000, with virtually no civilian deaths. That's wildly disproportionate, and reminds one of the Israel vs Palestinian statistic on that web page. But how would you feel if I tried to use that particular statistic to convince you that the culpability for WW2 were largely on the USA?

There are lies, and then there are damned lies. Finally, there are statistics.

I guess the solution to this is for Israel to just patiently allow Hamas etc to kill Israelis without attempting to do anything about it. In fact, Israel should do us all a favor and do what was done at Masada: everyone shoot each other, and the last ones left commit suicide. Or every Israeli should fill their pockets full of rocks and just walk into the sea. Problem solved!

[Alan]

So at 4% the Christian population of Palestine is not insignificant. It is a minority but not insignificant minority. 0.2% (the LDS global population) is even more insignificant and yet, as a Mormon myself it doesn't feel that way. It doesn't appear our enemies feel the LDS population is insignificant either judging by the energy they expend trying to discredit us.

 

My point was that Stargazer listed a number of facts about the state of Israel, but in each case referred to "Muslims". I was simply pointing out that Muslims and Palestinians are not the same thing. Islam is a religion, being a Palestinian is not.

[Nemesis]

Ok this doesn't really have much to do with the focus of this section or the board so I am moving it to the In the News section. 

[thesometimesaint]

Israel's poor treatment of Palestinians?  In what way?  And how does Israel's less than perfect record in this department compare to other Middle Eastern countries?

 

Let's examine some facts.

 

Question: In which countries in the Middle East are both Muslim and Jewish persons full citizens with the right to vote?

Answer: Israel and only Israel

 

Question: In which countries in the Middle East do both Jews and Muslims serve side-by-side in the armed forces?

Answer: Israel and only Israel

 

Question: How many countries in the Middle East have both Jews and Muslims in their national legislatures?

Answer: Israel and only Israel

 

Question: How many countries in the Middle East have both Jews and Muslims in their highest courts?

Answer: Israel and only Israel

 

Question: How many countries in the Middle East give women full equal rights?

Answer: Israel and only Israel

 

Question: How many countries in the Middle East permit LGBT persons to serve in the armed forces?

Answer: Israel and only Israel

 

The video you posted is very very clear and it is the absolute truth.  The problem is simply that one side does not want peace, or only wants it long enough to enable it to stock up on weapons so it can attack again.

 

And of course, to the leftist world, this is all Israel's fault.  They are supposed to permit Hamas firing thousands of rockets into Israel and not do a darned thing about it.  They are supposed to permit terrorist actions of all sorts to occur, and never do anything to prevent them.  This is madness.

 

Last I looked Turkey was in the Middle East.

[thesometimesaint]

Now for the rest of the story.

SEE http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/mapstellstory.html

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

To the OP...as former military, war is horrible, it is supposed to be horrible so that one day the war will end. My heart breaks for everyone on both sides. As far as Israel goes, if someone (for any reason) were to attack my family, my response would be swift and painful. As far as the Middle East it is so much larger than Israel, one only needs to see what is going on all over to see how bad it is getting. Much of what is happening is due to our own involvement, or lack thereof.