Alvino Posted July 15, 2014 Posted July 15, 2014 I thought it would be interesting to see the thoughts elicited by the following short documentary on the members of this forum, Mormon and otherwise. I'd appreciate if we can keep this as mostly a thread about reflecting on the issue of transgender identity as it relates to Mormonism/Mormon culture, and much less about same-sex marriage. Not looking for much debate here but just a discussion and conversation on the issue.
EllenMaksoud Posted July 15, 2014 Posted July 15, 2014 (edited) I thought it would be interesting to see the thoughts elicited by the following short documentary on the members of this forum, Mormon and otherwise. I'd appreciate if we can keep this as mostly a thread about reflecting on the issue of transgender identity as it relates to Mormonism/Mormon culture, and much less about same-sex marriage. Not looking for much debate here but just a discussion and conversation on the issue. As long as the so called, transgender issue can be shown to have a genetic etiology, substantial understanding can be garnered by also viewing the Youtube video about Dr Norman Spack, Boston Children's Hospital, "Treating GID". From those I have known, it is still all uphill for transgender people. There is a part of the Stake President and Bishops Manual that says, "any member having a voluntary gender change will not get a Temple Recommend". It depends upon how voluntary is defined. "I always knew I was a girl". You will hear that a lot. When I came to the church in 2011, no one knew until I told them. Then they, and I, thought I was transgendered. But NO WAIT, the church spent almost $1000 to prove I was a man, XY and we all got a big surprise. I'm either XXy non-Kleinfelters or Ais, but to know for sure it would take a lot more money. And I finally said stop because I know who I am. It is a big problem and you have to decide if you want a diminished life in the church, or if you want to go somewhere else. In the future, I hope that more children will be identified by 3-6 years old, put on androgen blockers that stop puberty, and then around 14-16 given the appropriate hormones to start puberty in the gender of their choice. As you probably already know, there is a Youtube video done by Dr Phil including people who are opposing Dr Spack. The people in this second group have a 41% suicide rate. Dr Spack's group has a very low suicide rate. I'm 67 and have left the church and returned to Islam. I wish you well on your journey. Edited July 15, 2014 by EllenMaksoud
Duncan Posted July 15, 2014 Posted July 15, 2014 (edited) This is an area I am in the dark about. Like Pres. packer asked in 2010 why would God do that? I don't understand why this all happens or what God expects from people who feel/think this way. Is he surprised at the suicide rates? Edited July 15, 2014 by Duncan 1
Alvino Posted July 15, 2014 Author Posted July 15, 2014 (edited) This is an area I am in the dark about. Like Pres. packer asked in 2010 why would God do that? I don't understand why this all happens or what God expects from people who feel/think this way. Is he surprised at the suicide rates? I'm sure someone like the girl's parents might say God is probably, not surprised at the suicide rates, but disappointed that we still aren't more accepting and loving of our transgender brothers and sisters. Perhaps the cross wasn't supposed to be carried by people like Eddie, but by all of us in our learning how to accept and love others like her. But I'm sure that ain't an easy pill to swallow for more traditional believers. Edited July 15, 2014 by Alvino 1
EllenMaksoud Posted July 15, 2014 Posted July 15, 2014 I'm sure someone like the girl's parents might say God is probably, not surprised at the suicide rates, but disappointed that we still aren't more accepting and loving of our transgender brothers and sisters. Perhaps the cross wasn't supposed to be carried by people like Eddie, but by all of us in our learning how to accept and love others like her. But I'm sure that ain't an easy pill to swallow for more traditional believers.One thing to consider. God made us Male and Female in the Garden. After the fall, things began to skew away from the created state. Humans today are an imperfect representation of those originally created. There are thousands of variations between perfect XX and XY.
Calm Posted July 15, 2014 Posted July 15, 2014 (edited) This is an area I am in the dark about. Like Pres. packer asked in 2010 why would God do that? I don't understand why this all happens or what God expects from people who feel/think this way. Is he surprised at the suicide rates?Schizophrenia is another predisposition that leads to higher suicides rates, 10%....especially among young adult males in this group. And it is slightly over 1% of the population that deals with it so not an insignificant number.It is definitely not something easily understood...the why of such hardships in people's lives. If it is about the rest of us learning compassion and commitment to helping others, there are likely at over a million who have suffered before scientific help even had a hint of alleviating some symptoms. Why so long for the meaning of the lesson to get through. Going to be on the lists of questions I start with "okay God, now this is the part of the Plan that never made much sense to me...some clarification would be greatly appreciated".http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/topics/schizophrenia/index.shtml Edited July 15, 2014 by calmoriah 2
Storm Rider Posted July 15, 2014 Posted July 15, 2014 I think there are some areas that the Lord has provided commandments, but there are a whole lot of other areas where no commandments are given and it is gray. These are areas where compassion must rule the day in the minds and hearts of the disciples of Christ. I do think we have a long way to go in separating the sin and sinner. Someone's personal life, their shortcomings, have nothing to do with attending church and participating with the saints. It is of little value for the membership to know of the sins of others; that should be separate and between the bishop and the individual. The member and everyone else should extend the hand of fellowship to all regardless of appearance, personal behavior, etc. We could be an unstoppable force for peace and joy if we learned these few lessons.
EllenMaksoud Posted July 15, 2014 Posted July 15, 2014 I think there are some areas that the Lord has provided commandments, but there are a whole lot of other areas where no commandments are given and it is gray. These are areas where compassion must rule the day in the minds and hearts of the disciples of Christ. I do think we have a long way to go in separating the sin and sinner. Someone's personal life, their shortcomings, have nothing to do with attending church and participating with the saints. It is of little value for the membership to know of the sins of others; that should be separate and between the bishop and the individual. The member and everyone else should extend the hand of fellowship to all regardless of appearance, personal behavior, etc. We could be an unstoppable force for peace and joy if we learned these few lessons. AND, perhaps some of the things we view as sins are simply the product of genetic drift. Look at the astonishingly high rate of birth defects in areas where expended uranium ammunition has been used. Whose sin is that? It is unfortunate that her parents waited so long to get her established on her path. I am completely sure that so many issues that we treat as sin will one day be found to be oportunities placed before us by God to help us learn mercy, and so many other God like qualities. It is my opinion that with the exception of the TR issue, Mormons treat the so called "people of diversity" better than anyone I have experienced. They did me an astonishing service by helping to prove that there is a physical/genetic cause for my own difference. This will eventually extend to others.
Storm Rider Posted July 15, 2014 Posted July 15, 2014 AND, perhaps some of the things we view as sins are simply the product of genetic drift. Look at the astonishingly high rate of birth defects in areas where expended uranium ammunition has been used. Whose sin is that? It is unfortunate that her parents waited so long to get her established on her path. I am completely sure that so many issues that we treat as sin will one day be found to be oportunities placed before us by God to help us learn mercy, and so many other God like qualities. It is my opinion that with the exception of the TR issue, Mormons treat the so called "people of diversity" better than anyone I have experienced. They did me an astonishing service by helping to prove that there is a physical/genetic cause for my own difference. This will eventually extend to others. This was part of my point; the perceived sin is meaningless or should be. In this situation, we know that a child is not punished for the sins of the parents. We can only hope that we as a whole learn to be truly compassionate toward all.
USU78 Posted July 15, 2014 Posted July 15, 2014 God is probably, not surprised at the suicide rates, but disappointed that we still aren't more accepting and loving of our transgender brothers and sisters. Again with the lack of responsibility in the suicide and passive/aggressive attacks on the Church and its members. Sheesh.
bcuzbcuz Posted July 15, 2014 Posted July 15, 2014 Again with the lack of responsibility in the suicide and passive/aggressive attacks on the Church and its members. Sheesh.Well, judging by your comments here and other posts on other topics, you are definitely not "passive/ aggressive". Maybe you can classify which category "arc steadying " falls into?
Tacenda Posted July 15, 2014 Posted July 15, 2014 Well, judging by your comments here and other posts on other topics, you are definitely not "passive/ aggressive". Maybe you can classify which category "arc steadying " falls into?Probably a post for another thread or new topic. But I heard the other day that people think Utah LDS or maybe just LDS, are very "passive/aggressive". If someone would like to start a topic on it, that would be an interesting topic. Don't want to derail though.
USU78 Posted July 15, 2014 Posted July 15, 2014 Well, judging by your comments here and other posts on other topics, you are definitely not "passive/ aggressive". Maybe you can classify which category "arc steadying " falls into? There was an implicit, though not express, criticism of the LDS Church in the language I quoted of a kind with the typically bigotted "Homosexuals [and in this case sex-change victims] suicide because Mormons are so mean" cant. That it was implicit and not express makes it passive/aggressive. Clear now?
jcake Posted July 15, 2014 Posted July 15, 2014 (edited) As others have stated, our hopes and prayers need to be for love and acceptance of those who are born with differences that have made their lives challenging. I'm so glad that there is finally recognition that, usually, these circumstances are not a choice, but a situation of birth. I have heard people say, " But God doesn't make mistakes." Probably not, certainly nature is filled with "mistakes", though. And where it can be done, we try to fix them. Prosthetics are designed for people born with missing limbs, cochlear implants help those born without hearing, why wouldn't we want to help those with other of nature's "fails" have as good a life as possible? Our Savior has charged us to love others, and not to judge. From the scriptures,it would seem that the ugliest offence to God is the cruelty, unkindness, and thoughtlessness that people will exhibit to others. Someone once told me that it is easy to love people who are like one's self. We usually have more trouble loving people who are different than we are. This is something I'm trying to work on, loving everyone despite their differences.It is definitely a happier way to live. Edited July 16, 2014 by jcake
VideoGameJunkie Posted July 16, 2014 Posted July 16, 2014 I'm only a woman when it comes to weightlifting.
Erin15 Posted July 16, 2014 Posted July 16, 2014 I'm 67 and have left the church and returned to Islam. I wish you well on your journey.Is the Islamic community more welcoming to transgendered people?
Bernard Gui Posted July 16, 2014 Posted July 16, 2014 (edited) As I pointed out last month, this will be the next social issue used by the media and agitating members to beat up the Church. Edited July 16, 2014 by Bernard Gui 3
EllenMaksoud Posted July 16, 2014 Posted July 16, 2014 Again with the lack of responsibility in the suicide and passive/aggressive attacks on the Church and its members. Sheesh.I haven't seen anyone being passive aggressive. It seems what is being said is fairly direct. The church does a lot right. In some areas, they need further revelation.
EllenMaksoud Posted July 16, 2014 Posted July 16, 2014 Schizophrenia is another predisposition that leads to higher suicides rates, 10%....especially among young adult males in this group. And it is slightly over 1% of the population that deals with it so not an insignificant number.It is definitely not something easily understood...the why of such hardships in people's lives. If it is about the rest of us learning compassion and commitment to helping others, there are likely at over a million who have suffered before scientific help even had a hint of alleviating some symptoms. Why so long for the meaning of the lesson to get through. Going to be on the lists of questions I start with "okay God, now this is the part of the Plan that never made much sense to me...some clarification would be greatly appreciated".http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/topics/schizophrenia/index.shtmlFor many hardships, we make them so because of our own lack of understanding and prejudice. I have seen many examples of people who are somehow different achieving things would have surprised many.
EllenMaksoud Posted July 16, 2014 Posted July 16, 2014 Is the Islamic community more welcoming to transgendered people?I wouldn't know. Transgendered is a term used for people who reverse gender with no identifiable physical cause.
EllenMaksoud Posted July 16, 2014 Posted July 16, 2014 As I pointed out last month, this will be the next social issue used by the media and agitating members to beat up the Church.Actually, the Mormon church is better with so called Transgender folk than many of them. Don't worry about the church being beat up.
Bernard Gui Posted July 16, 2014 Posted July 16, 2014 Actually, the Mormon church is better with so called Transgender folk than many of them. Don't worry about the church being beat up.Members who undergo genital changing procedures cannot have temple recommends or receive the priesthood.
EllenMaksoud Posted July 16, 2014 Posted July 16, 2014 (edited) Members who undergo genital changing procedures cannot have temple recommends or receive the priesthood.The actual wording includes, "Members who undergo voluntary gender ...". Their thinking is still developing about how to define voluntary. In many cases, Doctors have not identified the etiology of the issue. It does not mean there is not physical causation but that the procedures to do so are either prohibitively expensive or do not yet exist. There is adequate presidence to show this sort of puzzlement on other issues in past history. Take the development of thinking around leprosy, which we now know as Hansen's Disease, and is now known to be a fungal infection. Look at so called "Hysteria" in women in the 18th century, which persisted well into the 20th century. Often, we first put the label "sin" on issues for which we lack adequate understanding. In my case, as I have said before, they spent nearly $1000 to find that there actually was a genetic issue. That interpretation of the results is slow is well known. I wonder how often incorrect assumptions are made in the so called "transgender" folk? No more investigation is needed, I know who I am. Edited July 16, 2014 by EllenMaksoud 1
Thinking Posted July 16, 2014 Posted July 16, 2014 Members who undergo genital changing procedures cannot have temple recommends or receive the priesthood. What if a person had already undergone gender reassignment surgery, and then converted to the LDS Church?
Calm Posted July 16, 2014 Posted July 16, 2014 Case by case, depends a great deal on whether it was done by parents and doctors as a minor or they made the choice themselves as an adult.
Recommended Posts