Establish An Organization For Women Equal To The Priesthood

[BlueDreams]

We had a couple in our ward once that was having marital trouble. The husband was a cowboy who broke wild horses for a living; his wife owned ca. 15 Circle K's. They were loaded, but she despised him because he had "no ambition." He agreed to go to marriage counseling, and told me afterwards, "You know what's worse than a woman railing at you? Two women railing at you" (the counselor was a woman).

 

Nice pictures, ELF . . .

 

This reminds me of someone who wanted a male therapist who liked guns (you know, because he'd really get him). That happens all the time, with or without the concern being gender (similar ethnic background is another biggie). Couples counseling can be a crap-shoot and men have a tendency to have less of a "buy" into therapy. So a good therapists usually work to make the client who doesn't feel comfortable, have space and feel validated in session. You can't really do therapy if the other feels attack or is checking out early in heart/mind. Needless to say, couples are complicated

 

With luv,

BD  

Edited July 3, 2014 by BlueDreams

[CV75]

I think that's it, exactly, calmoriah. In the church, the bishop has priesthood keys (and for believing members, he really does, too --- not just some fairy tale belief). While women confide to confidants (who can be very helpful in helping someone "go talk to the bishop"), it is not replacement, or even analogue, to formally confessing as part of the repentance process.

 

And I don't think there is any doctrinal way that women-as-confessor-with-keys could ever really work in the Church.

 

As far as women being present in a supporting role ---- I think that's a really bad idea that would not at all work how supporters think it would, in practice.

As a general rule, I would agree. As an option (and in consideration of the topic of this thread, not tainted by a personal political/reform agenda), I think it would be acceptable, albeit rarely requested. I accommodated such a request once or twice when I was a bishop some 20+ years ago and didn’t feel it interfered with the repentance process. It quickly prepared the way for private follow-up with the sisters.

[ERayR]

One thing that could be done to solve the problem of women holding the priesthood is to make the Relief Society semi-autonomous again and remove it from under the control of the priesthood. In other words, give women in the Church an organization equal in responsibility and authority to the priesthood for men. Allow women to again give healing blessings and serve other currently denied functions in the Church that they can probably do better than men, perhaps even allowing women to receive Church-wide related inspiration (to be voted on) if there are some who are blessed with this capability. (Do we deny that women are as capable, if not more capable, than most men in receiving inspiration from God?) In my mind, it is not that we should not have an organization in the Church exclusive to boys and men, but rather that we should have an organization in the Church for girls and women equal in authority to the organization for men. Anyway, that’s the way I see it.

 

It is obvious that you do not understand the Priesthood.  The Priesthood is God's authority.  If the Relief Society were to be made autonomous it would become nothing more than a social club.

[JAHS]

Does the Church support women giving priesthood blessings? Or is this more of a pray for someone to get better type of thing?

 According to President Joseph Fielding Smith:

 

"The Lord has given us directions in matters of this kind; we are to call in the elders, and they are to anoint with oil on the head and bless by the laying on of hands. The Church teaches that a woman may lay on hands upon the head of a sick child and ask the Lord to bless it, in the case when those holding the priesthood cannot be present. 

A man might under such conditions invite his wife to lay on hands with him in blessing their sick child. This would be merely to exercise her faith and not be, cause of any inherent right to lay on hands. A woman would have no authority to anoint or seal a blessing, and where elders can be called in, that would be the proper way to have an administration performed. (Doctrines of Salvation)

And President Joseph Fielding Smith, quoting from his father, said:

 

"Does a wife hold the priesthood with her husband, and may she lay hands on the sick with him, with authority? A wife does not hold the priesthood with her husband, but she enjoys the benefits thereof with him; and if she is requested to lay hands on the sick with him, she may do so with perfect propriety."

 

So at least President Smith seemed to believe it was OK for a woman to give a healing blessing, but reminded us the proper order of things, which is to call on the elders first if possible. 

[Calm]

And there are times, when this would be easier...period to talk with a woman.  I was talking to my roommate who mentioned actually having this problem with her bishop, where she grew frustrated in trying to help him understand an issue that a woman would be more likely to get immediately. 

 

I lucked out in having a doctor as my bishop when I needed to talk to him about the certain impact of a health issue.  As it was, it took maybe two sentences and just a reference and he got the implications and the difficulty all on his own so I didn't have to go into gory detail.

 

A woman would  have understood probably even faster, at least about half the problem.  Probably would have taken awhile to get the impact on sleep quality.

 

My previous bishop was a cop.  I doubt he would have understood after an indepth discussion of biological and psychological facts and at the end would have either say "that is just a discomfort you will have to live with if you wish to be obedient to your covenants" because he didn't understand why such discomforts can cause significant health problems or "do what you need to do" just to get me to talk about something else.

[juliann]

It is obvious that you do not understand the Priesthood.  The Priesthood is God's authority.  If the Relief Society were to be made autonomous it would become nothing more than a social club.

 

I urge you to read the Relief Society Magazine.  The RS wrote it's own curriculum, ran its own conference (and assigned the designation male authority a topic).  It had it's own charitable projects and raised money themselves.  It was the RS that organized and ran the Welfare program, a sister was sent to study under a woman back east to do it.  They kept a grain silo.  All by themselves.  Then it was all taken over by "the priesthood."

 

Do you consider this much autonomy a "social club?"  Do you think that might be a little dismissive of women's accomplishments in that era?

[Jude2]

 When Joseph Smith was organizing the Relief Society he told the sisters; “….all must act in concert or nothing can be done—that the Society should move according to the ancient Priesthood…”

 

I think he meant under it’s direction. I remember having to have huge bazaars trying to make money for the RS, no thank you. 

 

The Savior prayed that we might be one even as he and his Father are one. It sounds like some of you are trying to move us further apart.  

[The Nehor]

I urge you to read the Relief Society Magazine.  The RS wrote it's own curriculum, ran its own conference (and assigned the designation male authority a topic).  It had it's own charitable projects and raised money themselves.  It was the RS that organized and ran the Welfare program, a sister was sent to study under a woman back east to do it.  They kept a grain silo.  All by themselves.  Then it was all taken over by "the priesthood."

 

Do you consider this much autonomy a "social club?"  Do you think that might be a little dismissive of women's accomplishments in that era?

 

I applaud their efforts. It still operated under Priesthood keys and Priesthood authority. I think it would be neat to go back to those days but it isn't my call.

[rongo]

We were looking through some old Relief Society manuals from the 1970s once, and marveling about the cultural/historical enrichment lessons. I wish we had things like that instead of the boring and heavily-correlated manuals we have today.

 

JAHS: One important detail in President Smith's view on women and blessings is that they do so *with* their husband, not in his absence or instead of him. He was also clear that it is done by faith only and not with the authority of the priesthood. This is something that women-giving-blessings-today advocates always ignore when I ask. Even in documented cases of women giving healing blessings (I have some family examples of Eliza R. Snow effectively healing people in Morgan, Utah during a cholera epidemic, for instance), I have *never* found any evidence that they invoked the priesthood when doing so. I don't believe that *they* themselves thought that they were exercising priesthood authority.

 

Can anyone produce even one documented example of women invoking priesthood when healing?

Edited July 3, 2014 by rongo

[ERayR]

I urge you to read the Relief Society Magazine.  The RS wrote it's own curriculum, ran its own conference (and assigned the designation male authority a topic).  It had it's own charitable projects and raised money themselves.  It was the RS that organized and ran the Welfare program, a sister was sent to study under a woman back east to do it.  They kept a grain silo.  All by themselves.  Then it was all taken over by "the priesthood."

 

Do you consider this much autonomy a "social club?"  Do you think that might be a little dismissive of women's accomplishments in that era?

 

Nope that was certainly not a social club but then it was not autonomous to the extent that they were separate from priesthood authority.  There was priesthood oversight and approval all along the way just as there is in any part of the Church.  I can think of more than one thing that was centralized and pulled in closer by changing management.  One was ward and stake welfare farms.  They used to be operated on the ward or stake level.  They are not any more.  Another was stake recreational facilities.  Stake camps have been removed from stake authority and are managed from central church control.

 

It is not about it being because they were women.  I really hate to say it but it is more about bureaucratic management.  I have some reservations about it but suspect that when the Lord sees I am right he will fix it in his own good time.

[JAHS]

We were looking through some old Relief Society manuals from the 1970s once, and marveling about the cultural/historical enrichment lessons. I wish we had things like that instead of the boring and heavily-correlated manuals we have today.

 

JAHS: One important detail in President Smith's view on women and blessings is that they do so *with* their husband, not in his absence or instead of him. He was also clear that it is done by faith only and not with the authority of the priesthood. This is something that women-giving-blessings-today advocates always ignore when I ask. Even in documented cases of women giving healing blessings (I have some family examples of Eliza R. Snow effectively healing people in Morgan, Utah during a cholera epidemic, for instance), I have *never* found any evidence that they invoked the priesthood when doing so. I don't believe that *they* themselves thought that they were exercising priesthood authority.

 

Can anyone produce even one documented example of women invoking priesthood when healing?

I agree, but they are still allowed to place their hands on a sick person's head and through their own faith, specifically give a healing blessing; something that seems different than just saying a prayer. 

[carbon dioxide]

First, the very nature of the priesthood makes it impossible to establish an organization equal to the priesthood.

 

Second, if there was an organization independent of the priesthood, it would no longer have any authority from God because the authority of God comes through the Priesthood. Which is precisely why the relief society and other auxilaries derive authority from priesthood.

That is what Satan does best is create conterfeits.  Creating an organization equal to the priesthood would be like creating an alternative savior equal to Jesus Christ.  It might work in 2014 but God will see that all alternatives to his plan are thrown into the "lake of fire".

[escott3564]

One thing that could be done to solve the problem of women holding the priesthood is to make the Relief Society semi-autonomous again and remove it from under the control of the priesthood. In other words, give women in the Church an organization equal in responsibility and authority to the priesthood for men. Allow women to again give healing blessings and serve other currently denied functions in the Church that they can probably do better than men, perhaps even allowing women to receive Church-wide related inspiration (to be voted on) if there are some who are blessed with this capability. (Do we deny that women are as capable, if not more capable, than most men in receiving inspiration from God?) In my mind, it is not that we should not have an organization in the Church exclusive to boys and men, but rather that we should have an organization in the Church for girls and women equal in authority to the organization for men. Anyway, that’s the way I see it.

Amen.  This is what I have been saying all along.

[escott3564]

 

 When Joseph Smith was organizing the Relief Society he told the sisters; “….all must act in concert or nothing can be done—that the Society should move according to the ancient Priesthood…”

 

I think he meant under it’s direction. I remember having to have huge bazaars trying to make money for the RS, no thank you. 

 

The Savior prayed that we might be one even as he and his Father are one. It sounds like some of you are trying to move us further apart.  

 

Those bazaars were organized by the RS, and, at least in my home ward, it was an activity highlight that is missed.  The bazaars have nothing to do with whether or not the RS is autonomous from the Priesthood.  All of the auxiliaries had separate money-raising activities (Primary, YM/YW, etc.).  Correlation changed budget processes.

 

And no, what is being suggested would not move the men and women further apart.  What we learn in the temple is that the Priesthood is an entity that is shared by both men and women.  The man cannot reach his full potential without the woman; the woman cannot reach her full potential without the man.  What is being proposed is the RS being organized the way that Joseph Smith initially intended for it to be organized.

[escott3564]

We were looking through some old Relief Society manuals from the 1970s once, and marveling about the cultural/historical enrichment lessons. I wish we had things like that instead of the boring and heavily-correlated manuals we have today.

 

JAHS: One important detail in President Smith's view on women and blessings is that they do so *with* their husband, not in his absence or instead of him. He was also clear that it is done by faith only and not with the authority of the priesthood. This is something that women-giving-blessings-today advocates always ignore when I ask. Even in documented cases of women giving healing blessings (I have some family examples of Eliza R. Snow effectively healing people in Morgan, Utah during a cholera epidemic, for instance), I have *never* found any evidence that they invoked the priesthood when doing so. I don't believe that *they* themselves thought that they were exercising priesthood authority.

 

Can anyone produce even one documented example of women invoking priesthood when healing?

 

I would have to look for documentation.  I have read of instances where women did give blessings to the sick by the laying on of hands, but do not know the details beyond the fact that they did use the consecrated oil.

 

What I would like to see more of today is women administering in healing blessings WITH their husbands.  This is something that is perfectly appropriate in the Church today.  It has just fallen out of popular tradition. 

 

I had a very interesting experience that taught me this.  (Mods, I hope it is OK to reveal this personal experience since it does relate to the topic.)

 

When I was attending college in California, I was living at home at the time.  My parents were out of town for the weekend, and I was in charge of the household, looking after my little brother.  The night they left, I became very sick with a horrible flu.  I was really worried about being able to attend school that Monday, and I had a lot of studying to do over the weekend.  I called my grandfather and asked if he could come over and give me a blessing.  My grandparents came over and my grandfather anointed my head with oil, giving the traditional blessing of healing.  Then, BOTH my grandparents laid their hands upon my head and sealed the blessing.  This was the first time I had ever had a woman lay her hands upon my head.  Later, I asked questions about the blessing, and my grandmother, who is related to the Johnson family which Joseph Smith was closely associated with, told me that in the early days of the Church, this was a common practice.  She also explained to me that when I went to the temple, I would experience women laying their hands on my head as well.

 

I think that there is a lot yet to be revealed about how the Priesthood is incorporated by both men and women, and that we need to be more open minded.

[rongo]

Thanks, Liz! As I mentioned, I have documentation of Eliza R. Snow giving effective healings (they worked miraculously). I am also aware of women using consecrated oil. Significantly, though, in all documented cases I am aware of, these women never invoked the priesthood, and it's clear to me that they themselves didn't consider the blessings given by and through the priesthood. I have also never seen evidence that women ever consecrated oil or blessed babies (gave them names and a blessing), and of course they have never performed Aaronic priesthood ordinances (baptism, ordination, sacrament) or Melchizedek priesthood ordinances outside of the limited and narrow temple ones (e.g., confirmation, etc.).

 

I am as conservative as they come when it comes to the Church, and I would welcome clarification from the Brethren concerning mothers/wives participating in blessings for their loved ones (as was authorized historically). With the caveat that they are not exercising priesthood when doing so, because I think that this claim is untrue.

 

And I have to admit, even though I am sure that women have never invoked priesthood when participating in blessings, they sometimes were the "mouth" or took the blessing itself upon them. When Eliza arrived in Morgan Utah to find a raging cholera epidemic, she started healing people --- people who instantly got better. It's fascinating, because she didn't invoke the priesthood (she saw it as part of her role as General Relief Society president).

[ERayR]

Thanks, Liz! As I mentioned, I have documentation of Eliza R. Snow giving effective healings (they worked miraculously). I am also aware of women using consecrated oil. Significantly, though, in all documented cases I am aware of, these women never invoked the priesthood, and it's clear to me that they themselves didn't consider the blessings given by and through the priesthood. I have also never seen evidence that women ever consecrated oil or blessed babies (gave them names and a blessing), and of course they have never performed Aaronic priesthood ordinances (baptism, ordination, sacrament) or Melchizedek priesthood ordinances outside of the limited and narrow temple ones (e.g., confirmation, etc.).

 

I am as conservative as they come when it comes to the Church, and I would welcome clarification from the Brethren concerning mothers/wives participating in blessings for their loved ones (as was authorized historically). With the caveat that they are not exercising priesthood when doing so, because I think that this claim is untrue.

 

And I have to admit, even though I am sure that women have never invoked priesthood when participating in blessings, they sometimes were the "mouth" or took the blessing itself upon them. When Eliza arrived in Morgan Utah to find a raging cholera epidemic, she started healing people --- people who instantly got better. It's fascinating, because she didn't invoke the priesthood (she saw it as part of her role as General Relief Society president).

 

One should remember blessings of healing (as done today) are a two part process.  First one anoints with the oil and then the two seal the anointing by the power of the priesthood.  It is not unthinkable that an anointing with oil and a blessing given by by women would be effective.  I guarantee you if I were in need of a blessing of healing and my home teacher was not available and a worthy woman was I would not hesitate to ask for a blessing under her hands.

Edited July 4, 2014 by ERayR

[escott3564]

And I have to admit, even though I am sure that women have never invoked priesthood when participating in blessings, they sometimes were the "mouth" or took the blessing itself upon them. When Eliza arrived in Morgan Utah to find a raging cholera epidemic, she started healing people --- people who instantly got better. It's fascinating, because she didn't invoke the priesthood (she saw it as part of her role as General Relief Society president).

 

My understanding is that women who were endowed shared that Melchizedek Priesthood with their husbands and had the authority to act utilizing that Priesthood in certain capacities such as healing the sick.

 

I would also like to see mothers be able to hold the baby in the blessing circle when babies get blessed.  It would accomplish two things.  It would allow the mother to be more involved in the process of the baby blessing, and, I can also guarantee you that the baby would not be as fussy during the blessing itself.  I have read nothing that would prohibit this practice.  Again, it is simply a matter of tradition, as is a lot of these types of things. 

 

For example, I see no reason why callings such as Sunday School President couldn't be a calling served by a woman.  There could be a mix of male and female counselors as well.  When I was in the Institute program in California, our Institute Director called a presidency in charge of institute activities.  The President was male; the First Counselor was male; and I was called as the Second Counselor.  That was the first time I had been a part of a mixed presidency, and it was a very rewarding experience.

Edited July 4, 2014 by escott3564

[Kenngo1969]

This reminds ... Needless to say, couples are complicated  ... 

That's because ... each member of the pair is complicated.