Parallel Apostasy?

[WysteriaBlue]

My understanding is that the Great Apostasy started around the Fifth century AD.  

Is this because it was the end of the original lives and writings of the twelve apostles and degredation of the true nature of the churches begun by those apostles? Or the influence of Romans at Nicean Council, etc...

 

Also, did it coincide with the desth and lost teachings of the 12 Nephite "disciples" that Jesus appointed in the Americas?

Was there parallel apostasy so to speak in East and West?

 

Any clarification would be greatly appreciated.

Respectfully,

WB

1 Nephi 12:9-10

3 Nephi 19

[3DOP]

Hi Wysteria Blue. Welcome.

 

A thread on the Apostasy kind of invites replies from people like me who don't believe in it. Ordinarily it would go in General Discussions. But if you just want reaffirmation...if I were Mormon...I would propose a much earlier apostasy. If The "Former-day Church" was okay into the 400's, it is still okay today. The best arguments, like the need for twelve apostles is lost if you wait that late. I think it is lost anyway...but nevermind that. Suffice to say that you need to shoot for the death of the Apostles.

 

God bless Wysteria Blue. Nice name. Beautiful avatar...much appreciated.

 

3DOP

 

PS: Of course I am only thinking Old World and that is what we usually talk about. Twelve American disciples? Apostles? That might force things forward a bit. I'll let your fellows comment.

Edited May 9, 2014 by 3DOP

[WysteriaBlue]

I'm not allowed to post inGeneral topics yet, not old enouhh...lol.  wish that were true in real life!  Ha

 

So you are suggesting more like 150 or so AD?  What about churches that were still following Jesus' plan for them?

Just asking...

 

How do we know how long the Nephite disciples lived?  Or is it until the plates and U&T were buried?  I'm confusing myself.

 

TY

-WB

[The Nehor]

The usual LDS interpretation is that the Apostasy was not a sudden event. In LDS theology the keys of the Priesthood are what keep the church going. When the Apostles were all either dead or out of action the apostasy began in earnest though some of the lesser keys continued for a time. Eventually they were lost and with them the Priesthood. Without the Priesthood, there is no church.

[WysteriaBlue]

 

  If so, since JS said no Levites came to the Americas, is that why it was so important for the visitation of first, John the Baptist to bestow the Aaronic priesthood to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdry........and then for Peter, James and John to visit Joseph Smith, to give him the Melchizedek priesthood keys to set up the restored church??  

(Moroni came first to tell him of the plates, and then a year later to help him find the plates and periodically to help with the translations...)

 

Lehi (son of Moroni) was the last of the priesthood holders before he died?  So Levites were the carriers of the Aaronic and not Melchizedek priesthood ....and some? Like Nehi brought the Aaronic keys with them to the Americas....which passed down through the wars to Lehi the last righteous keyholder?  So Moroni was not a Melchizedek priest? 

 

Then great Apostosy in the Americas until Joseph was appointed to find the plates..... ?  So God protected the Levites in the East and the keys of the priesthood...?  

But, Jesus gave the Aaronic keys to the 12 Nephi?  Which were then lost again as they died out?

 

  So Great Apostasy started with the deaths of the last of Jesus' apostles in the East and the dying out of the 12 Nephite "apostles" in the West???  Is this right??

[Calm]

https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrines-of-the-gospel-student-manual/chapter-22-the-apostasy?lang=eng. See link for scriptures and several quotes giving general details about the apostasy.

Nephites lasted as a Zion society for about two hundred years before they started to fall into apostasy:

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/4-ne/1?lang=eng

" 14 And it came to pass that the seventy and first year passed away, and also the seventy and second year, yea, and in fine, till the seventy and ninth year had passed away; yea, even an hundred years had passed away, and the adisciples of Jesus, whom he had chosen, had all gone to the bparadise of God, save it were the cthree who should tarry; and there were other ddisciples eordained in their stead; and also many of that fgeneration had passed away.

15 And it came to pass that there was no acontention in the land, because of the blove of God which did dwell in the hearts of the people.

16 And there were no aenvyings, nor bstrifes, nor ctumults, nor whoredoms, nor lyings, nor murders, nor any manner of dlasciviousness; and surely there could not be a ehappier people among all the people who had been created by the hand of God.

17 There were no robbers, nor murderers, neither were there Lamanites, nor any manner of -ites; but they were in aone, the children of Christ, and heirs to the kingdom of God.

18 And how blessed were they! For the Lord did bless them in all their doings; yea, even they were blessed and prospered until an hundred and ten years had passed away; and the first generation from Christ had passed away, and there was no contention in all the land.

19 And it came to pass that aNephi, he that kept this last record, (and he kept it upon the bplates of Nephi) died, and his son Amos kept it in his stead; and he kept it upon the plates of Nephi also.

20 And he kept it eighty and four years, and there was still peace in the land, save it were a small part of the people who had revolted from the church and taken upon them the name of Lamanites; therefore there began to be aLamanites again in the land."

Edited May 9, 2014 by calmoriah

[Calm]

Lehi (son of Moroni) was the last of the priesthood holders before he died?  So Levites were the carriers of the Aaronic and not Melchizedek priesthood ....and some? Like Nehi brought the Aaronic keys with them to the Americas....which passed down through the wars to Lehi the last righteous keyholder?  So Moroni was not a Melchizedek priest? 

I think you mean Moroni, son of Mormon as the last priesthood holder...at least that the scriptures tell of.

He was likely a Melchizedek priest as that was present among the Lehites (the original group before the split, Lehi was the first prophet, Nephi---the first one--- his son is the first recordkeeper in the BoM though it would appear that Lehi kept a record as well). Whether there were appointed Aaronic priests as there are today or that was assumed to be strictly the role of the Levites in the Old World, I don't know. Will try and find an article that discusses possibility.

Lds doctrine allows for any MP holder to perform any of the lesser priesthood functions.

[Calm]

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1994/03/i-have-a-question?lang=eng

By what authority did Lehi, a non-Levite priest, offer sacrifices?

Paul Y. Hoskisson, associate professor of ancient scripture, Brigham Young University. From the beginning of the world, God has sought to bless his children by bestowing on his worthy sons the Melchizedek Priesthood, “the Holy Priesthood, after the Order of the Son of God” (D&C 107:3; see also Alma 13:7). Scripture affirms that Adam, Abel, Enoch, Noah, Melchizedek, Abraham, Moses, and others held this priesthood (see D&C 84:14–16, 25; D&C 107:53; Moses 6:67).

The Melchizedek Priesthood was to have continued among the descendants of Israel in order to bless the inhabitants of the earth. Through Moses, for example, God expressed to the children of Israel the desire to make of them a royal generation of priesthood holders (See Ex. 19:5–6). But because the children of Israel were disobedient in the days of Moses, the keys of the Melchizedek Priesthood were withdrawn from them (see Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 3 vols., comp. Bruce R. McConkie, Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1954–56, 3:83–85; see also Bruce R. McConkie, The Mortal Messiah, 4 vols., Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1979–81, 1:60).

Thus, from the days of Moses until the coming of Christ in the meridian of time, the inhabitants of Israel were not generally given the Melchizedek Priesthood, and only the Levites held the Aaronic Priesthood and administered the obligations and duties of the law of Moses.

The Lord, however, did not leave his people, the Israelites, without the guidance of Melchizedek Priesthood leadership. All the prophets held the higher priesthood, having been ordained by the hand of God (see Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 180–81). It was by right of this higher priesthood that the Old Testament prophets performed their labors in the name of the God of Israel and could officiate in the ordinances of the Aaronic Priesthood, just as today bishops in the Church officiate in an Aaronic Priesthood office by right of the Melchizedek Priesthood.

About 600 B.C., Lehi was called as one of these prophets to preach repentance to the inhabitants of Israel, a people who generally did not hold the priesthood. When he left Jerusalem at God’s command, Lehi was aware that he and his family were forming a separate branch of the house of Israel (see 1 Ne. 15:12). Though the Book of Mormon does not explicitly state so, Lehi, like all other prophets in Old Testament times, held the Melchizedek Priesthood.

For this reason, the Nephites, without having Levites among them, could rightfully officiate in the ordinances of the law of Moses. Thus, in Book of Mormon lands, the Nephites administered the ordinances and blessings of the law of Moses before the coming of Christ and the law of the gospel after the coming of Christ by the authority of the Melchizedek Priesthood.

Also, Nephi’s consecration of Jacob and Joseph to be priests and teachers was, as Joseph Fielding Smith explained, “a general assignment to teach, direct, and admonish the people,” not an ordination to specific offices in the Aaronic Priesthood (see Answers to Gospel Questions, 5 vols., Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1957, 1:124–25).

It seems clear, then, that before Jesus Christ visited the Nephites and organized the Church in its fulness, Lehi and later Nephite prophets and Church leaders presided in various religious capacities by virtue of the Melchizedek Priesthood. In the Book of Mormon, this divine authority is referred to as “the holy order of God” (Alma 5:44; Alma 13:1; Alma 43:1–2; see also 2 Ne. 6:2).

Although the Book of Mormon does not at first glance seem to place emphasis on Melchizedek Priesthood lines as we do today, yet it is from beginning to end the record kept by the holders and administrators of that priesthood among the Nephites. Moreover, the Book of Mormon is its own best illustration of the roles and responsibilities of Melchizedek Priesthood holders among the inhabitants of this earth. In it we find examples of righteous men and women who allowed the Melchizedek Priesthood to bless their lives. In the words of Alma, one of the great prophets and Melchizedek Priesthood leaders in the Book of Mormon, those who were ordained to the higher priesthood were to “teach [Christ’s] commandments unto the children of men, that they also might enter into his rest” (Alma 13:6). Those who study the Book of Mormon and apply its teachings in their lives have a greater appreciation for the blessings and ordinances that can be received through the Melchizedek Priesthood.

[Calm]

"  If so, since JS said no Levites came to the Americas, is that why it was so important for the visitation of first, John the Baptist to bestow the Aaronic priesthood to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdry........and then for Peter, James and John to visit Joseph Smith, to give him the Melchizedek priesthood keys to set up the restored church??  "

John the Baptist and the others held the Priesthood Keys even though others had held the same Priesthood after them. Think of them as the official stewards or gatekeepers and them needing to pass the Keys on to the next gatekeeper, Joseph Smith, in order for the Priesthood to be authorised by God in this time period/dispensation.

[Calm]

https://www.lds.org/manual/duties-and-blessings-of-the-priesthood-basic-manual-for-priesthood-holders-part-b/priesthood-and-church-government/lesson-2-the-keys-of-the-priesthood?lang=eng

A key unlocks the door to a house. We cannot appropriately enter a house unless we receive the key or the owner’s permission. Likewise, except for the right that husbands and fathers have to bless their families, a man who holds the priesthood can use it only when he receives proper permission. A priest, for example, has the authority to ordain another to an office in the Aaronic Priesthood, but he cannot do it without receiving permission to do so from his bishop or branch president. This power to give permission is called the keys of the priesthood.

“It is necessary that every act performed under this authority shall be done at the proper time and place, in the proper way, and after the proper order. The power of directing these labors constitutes the keys of the Priesthood” (Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine, 5th ed. [1939], 136).

President Joseph Fielding Smith explained: “These keys are the right of presidency; they are the power and authority to govern and direct all of the Lord’s affairs on earth. Those who hold them have power to govern and control the manner in which all others may serve in the priesthood. All of us may hold the priesthood, but we can only use it as authorized and directed so to do by those who hold the keys” (in Conference Report, Apr. 1972, 98; or Ensign, July 1972, 87).

•What is the difference between the priesthood and the keys of the priesthood? (The priesthood is the power or authority of God. The keys are the right to use this power or authority in specific ways.)

Who Holds the Keys of the Priesthood?

Jesus Christ has always held all of the keys of the priesthood. When He first called His twelve Apostles, Jesus gave all of them the priesthood (see John 15:16).

•Show visual 2-a, “Christ ordained His Apostles and gave them the keys of the priesthood.”

(click to view larger)

Before He was crucified, Christ gave the keys of the priesthood to Peter, James, and John. This was done on the Mount of Transfiguration. (See Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, sel. Joseph Fielding Smith [1976], 158; Matthew 17:1–9.) However, in the centuries that followed the death of the Apostles, these keys were lost; and before men could exercise the priesthood again, these keys had to be restored. For this reason the Lord sent Peter, James, and John to the Prophet Joseph Smith to restore the Melchizedek Priesthood and the keys of that priesthood (see D&C 27:12–13).

These sacred keys have been given to all the Apostles and prophets of the Church and are held by the prophet and Apostles of the Church today."

[Calm]

This gives more detail:

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1996/12/the-restoration-of-the-aaronic-and-melchizedek-priesthoods?lang=eng

"The messenger who visited us on this occasion and conferred this Priesthood upon us, said that his name was John, the same that is called John the Baptist in the New Testament, and that he acted under the direction of Peter, James and John, who held the keys of the Priesthood of Melchizedek, which Priesthood, he said, would in due time be conferred on us” (JS—H 1:68–72; emphasis in JS—H 1:70, 72 added). 2"

Edited May 9, 2014 by calmoriah

[WysteriaBlue]

Elder Calmoriah,

You have been very generous to so fully answer my question and givee the references so that I can continue to study them.  This is great information and will keep me busy for hours.  I am sorry for all my errors and do appreciate your showing where my thinking was so faulted.  I look forward to laying out all these references!

Thank you!

 

Yours kindly,

WB

[Calm]

Since they aren't ordaining women yet, it is Sister Calmoriah.

It is a complicated picture. Not surprising that there is some confusion, would be very surprised if there wasn't.

Edited May 9, 2014 by calmoriah

[erdoch]

You may also be interested in the interpretation that the Apostasy took place in (or was completed in) AD 570. This is based on the Joseph Smith Translation and on a parable written in the Church's newspaper Times and Seasons Vol. 6, No. 5 (March 15, 1845) and 6 (April 1, 1845). 

 

In the Joseph Smith Translation of Revelation 12:5: "And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she had a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore years." Notice that "days" have been changed to "years". If we take the year of the Restoration to be 1830, that would make the year that the woman flees into the wilderness (i.e., the Apostasy according to LDS interpretation) AD 570.

 

From Times and Seasons Vol. 6, No. 5: 

 

A PARABLE.

 

There was a day when a certain great king proposed a marriage for his son, prepared a dinner, and proffered to bequeath to his son one of his provinces, on the day of the marriage.-The woman that was to be the bride was very fair and beautiful, her adorning was that of a crown with twelve precious diamonds set there and placed upon her head, holding in her hand a reflecting rod, by which the bright rays of the sun was brought to reflect upon the diamonds, giving light both day and night, so that she walked not in the dark, but as in the light of the noon-day sun, to guide her steps. Her features were fair and comely, decked with virtue, innocence, and loving kindness, administering to all who came under her care; she surpassed all women in wisdom, in faith, and other like precious gifts and graces. The surrounding neighborhood, together with the inhabitants of said province, looked upon her with jealousy and waged war against her and her intended espousal, and treated them as their worst enemies and succeeded in banishing the king's son from his province, which caused the woman to mourn with a great and grievous mourning until she was comforted by tidings from the great king, who promised to bring back his son again, and (seeing his dinner was despised) he would prepare a supper, and invite all the inhabitants of the province to come to the marriage supper of his son, and that his son should be made king over the whole province, and that he would cause the rod of iron which was in the bride's hand to reflect light over all the kingdoms in the province, as this son was the legal heir; and the different kingdoms should become the kingdoms of his son.

 

This glorious news gave encouragement to the intended bride and enabled her to stand firm through many hard battles; at last the emperor of the nation that was warring with the woman, changed his course and proclaimed peace. The emperor by this means hoped to become in possession of the rod of iron, which seemed to be destined to rule all nations; the woman now was overpowered and was embraced in the emperor's arms, and at this critical moment the king himself stepped forward just as the woman was ready to deliver up her authority to the emperor, and took the rod out of her hand and carried it home to his own dominions and rescued the woman out of the emperor's hands, and secreted her in a neighboring woods, that her life might be preserved. This enraged the disappointed emperor with madness and revenge; he renewed the war, declared his greatness, claiming that he had received from the woman all the authority of the king's son, putting to death all who dared to deny his assertion. The woman wandered in the wilderness for many days, lost the diamonds out of her crown and being destitute of the reflecting rod, she lay dormant in the wilderness; or in other words asleep, having nothing but the pale rays of the moon to guide her feet. She mourned, she wept, she lamented her untimely widowhood, longing for the return of her banished husband; in all this she was some comforted, waiting with hope and listening with great anxiety to hear the glad news, behold, the bridegroom cometh, go ye out to meet him, put on thy former apparel and prepare thyself for the completion of the marriage; and all those who refuse this my second and last invitation, shall not taste of my supper; this glad news for her was promised to be declared by a messenger from the king who was to bring back the reflecting rod, and all its attending beauties, authorizing the same to be proclaimed to every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, saying, with a loud voice, fear the great king for he is about to execute judgment upon all the rebels.

 

From Times and Seasons Vol. 6, No. 6:

 

COMMUNICATIONS.

THE ANSWER

To the parable in our last number.

To make the subject plain, the explanation is given in question and answers.

 

Q.-1. Who is the king and his son?

A.-The king is the father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

Q.-2. Who is the woman?

A.-Christ's Church.

 

Q.-3. When was the marriage and dinner proposed?

A.-At the time Christ and his apostles offered salvation to the Jews.

 

Q.-4. Who banished the king's son?

A.-The Jews.

 

Q.-5. Who put to death the woman's friends?

A.-The Roman Church.

 

Q.-6. What was the rod?

A.-It was the power and priesthood after the holy order of the son of God, which the church had; and was delivered of it, or rather, it was taken from her in the year 570, and the church fell into the hands of the Pope of Rome.

 

Q.-7. What were the twelve diamonds?

A.-The Twelve apostles.

 

Q.-8. Will the woman or church come out of the wilderness?

A.-Yes, with the same adornings as Solomon saw her.

 

Q.-9. When will the king's son return?

A.-As soon as the church gathers together and gets ready.

 

Q.-10. Where is the woman?

A.-She is on the continent of America.

 

Q.-11. How is she known from other women or churches?

A.-By the Priesthood; by her twelve apostles at her head; the organization of her officers being the ancient order, a presidency, the Twelve, and Seventies, walking by immediate revelation, the only principle of light that ever guided the people of God in any age.

 

Q.-12. Do the inhabitants of the world, look upon her now, with any less jealousy, than they did eighteen hundred years ago?

A.-No; she is evily treated in like manner.

 

Q.-13. Who despised the king's dinner?

A.-The Jews when they refused the gospel as offered to them by Jesus Christ in person.

 

Q.-14. Who were invited to the supper?

A.-The Gentiles, when the apostles said to the Jews, seeing you count yourselves unworthy of eternal life, lo! we turn and invite the Gentiles, that they may be ready at Christ's second coming.

 

Q.-15. What was the dinner?

A.-It was the gospel of eternal life offered in the days of Christ and his apostles; first to the Jew.

 

Q.-16. What was the supper?

A.-It is the same gospel offered the second time, first to the Gentiles, that the first (which was the Jews may be last); and the last, (which was the Gentiles may be first.

 

Q.-17. Who is that will not partake of the supper?

A.-It will be those who refuse to obey the gospel when God sets his hand the second time to organize his kingdom, and calls forth his hunters, and sends them out to preach the everlasting gospel, to all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, saying with a loud voice, hear O ye inhabitants of the earth, and hearken unto the voice of the Lord your God, for he has sent his angel to man on earth, and committed the everlasting gospel to him; saying: fear God and give glory to him, for the hour of his judgment is come, and worship him who made heaven, and earth, and sea, and the fountains of waters.

 

Q.-18. Who is the messenger sent from the king?

A.-It is the angel that John saw flying from heaven, having the everlasting gospel to commit to man on the earth. 

[erdoch]

D&C 86 is also applicable here: 

 

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you my servants, concerning the parable of the wheat and of the tares:

 

 2 Behold, verily I say, the field was the world, and the apostles were the sowers of the seed;

 

 3 And after they have fallen asleep the great persecutor of the church, the apostate, the whore, even Babylon, that maketh all nations to drink of her cup, in whose hearts the enemy, even Satan, sitteth to reign—behold he soweth the tares; wherefore, the tares choke the wheat and drive the church into the wilderness.

 

From my reading of this, the Apostasy was a gradual process. First, the apostles fall asleep, THEN the tares are SOWED, and then in the process of time the tares grow up, choke the wheat and drive the Church into the wilderness.

 

For further thoughts on the Apostasy and Restoration I highly recommend Terryl Given's essay "The Woman in the Wilderness: Mormonism, Catholicism, and Inspired Syncretism". 

[WysteriaBlue]

Since they aren't ordaining women yet, it is Sister Calmoriah.

It is a complicated picture. Not surprising that there is some confusion, would be very surprised if there wasn't.

 

Awesome!  Very grateful to you and great to hear you are a Sister.....your answers have been wonderful, but I still need some time to digest a lot of the material.  It re a lly is not what I'd been taught.  So awesome to finally meet a lady that will help!!  Thankk you so very much!!

[BookofMormonLuvr]

AD 570 is ironically enough the year a great deceiver of the nations came forth from the womb... Mohammed.

I don't believe in coincidences.

[WysteriaBlue]

Thank you Erdoch.  This was very interesting.  One question, what was the moon in regards to this story?  Just curious...

I will definitely continue to study all this great material that you all have been so generous to provide...  Also, could the 12 stones in her crown represent the 12 tribes of Israel that are to be searched for and eventually united?

Just thinking out loud...

 

Respectfully,

-WB

[erdoch]

You're welcome WB. As to the moon, my best guess is that this represents the diminished spiritual "light" available to the world during the period of Apostasy. As for the diamonds, they represent the 12 apostles, I don't think the parable should be expanded to include the restoration of the house of Israel.  

 

I should also note that the parable being published in the Church's newspaper in 1845 should not be viewed as doctrinal, merely as an expression of the beliefs of Church members at the time, and also as confirming the belief of a 1260-year period Apostasy present in the Joseph Smith Translation. I assume from a brief Google search that John Taylor was still the editor of the newspaper at this time, but I do not know who actually wrote the article. It is initialed "A." at the end but I don't know who "A." is... 

[Kevin Christensen]

Essential reading for the latest perspectives: Early Christians in Disarray: Contemporary LDS Perspectives on the Apostasy.

http://publications.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/book/early-christians-in-disarray-contemporary-lds-perspectives-on-the-christian-apostasy/

It's all very good, including the important Bibliographic essay on LDS approaches to the apostasy which provides some historical perspectives on how and why who thought what.

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

[aaron0005]

https://www.lds.org/manual/duties-and-blessings-of-the-priesthood-basic-manual-for-priesthood-holders-part-b/priesthood-and-church-government/lesson-2-the-keys-of-the-priesthood?lang=eng

A key unlocks the door to a house. We cannot appropriately enter a house unless we receive the key or the owner’s permission. Likewise, except for the right that husbands and fathers have to bless their families, a man who holds the priesthood can use it only when he receives proper permission. A priest, for example, has the authority to ordain another to an office in the Aaronic Priesthood, but he cannot do it without receiving permission to do so from his bishop or branch president. This power to give permission is called the keys of the priesthood.

“It is necessary that every act performed under this authority shall be done at the proper time and place, in the proper way, and after the proper order. The power of directing these labors constitutes the keys of the Priesthood” (Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine, 5th ed. [1939], 136).

President Joseph Fielding Smith explained: “These keys are the right of presidency; they are the power and authority to govern and direct all of the Lord’s affairs on earth. Those who hold them have power to govern and control the manner in which all others may serve in the priesthood. All of us may hold the priesthood, but we can only use it as authorized and directed so to do by those who hold the keys” (in Conference Report, Apr. 1972, 98; or Ensign, July 1972, 87).

•What is the difference between the priesthood and the keys of the priesthood? (The priesthood is the power or authority of God. The keys are the right to use this power or authority in specific ways.)

Who Holds the Keys of the Priesthood?

Jesus Christ has always held all of the keys of the priesthood. When He first called His twelve Apostles, Jesus gave all of them the priesthood (see John 15:16).

•Show visual 2-a, “Christ ordained His Apostles and gave them the keys of the priesthood.”

(click to view larger)

Before He was crucified, Christ gave the keys of the priesthood to Peter, James, and John. This was done on the Mount of Transfiguration. (See Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, sel. Joseph Fielding Smith [1976], 158; Matthew 17:1–9.) However, in the centuries that followed the death of the Apostles, these keys were lost; and before men could exercise the priesthood again, these keys had to be restored. For this reason the Lord sent Peter, James, and John to the Prophet Joseph Smith to restore the Melchizedek Priesthood and the keys of that priesthood (see D&C 27:12–13).

These sacred keys have been given to all the Apostles and prophets of the Church and are held by the prophet and Apostles of the Church today."

I am curious of two things.

 

Did the Nephites have the Aaronic Priesthood or only the Higher? You seem to quote President F Smith, indicating they did not. I see no reason they would not. the Highrer surely gives one authorit to act in the lesser, but like Mormons who are not Levites (at least not most) they still had to have the lesser restored to be able to act in that by virtue of the Higher.

 

My second curiosity is in regards to the statement you put up about Jesus always having held all the keys. If this is the case then why did Moses and Elijah have to appear to him to confer specific keys related to the Higher Priesthood?

 

Aaron

[aaron0005]

I am curious of two things.

 

Did the Nephites have the Aaronic Priesthood or only the Higher? You seem to quote President F Smith, indicating they did not. I see no reason they would not. the Highrer surely gives one authorit to act in the lesser, but like Mormons who are not Levites (at least not most) they still had to have the lesser restored to be able to act in that by virtue of the Higher.

 

My second curiosity is in regards to the statement you put up about Jesus always having held all the keys. If this is the case then why did Moses and Elijah have to appear to him to confer specific keys related to the Higher Priesthood?

 

Aaron

Or perhaps He already had the keys and for reasons Moses and Elijah had to appear as part of the tutoring and molding (and other) to give to the apostles.

[Calm]

You will have to ask the writer of the manual or perhaps someone else knows and will speak up here.  My entire post was a quote of that lesson I linked to.  It is not something I have spent much time on, save for trying to help out with info from those who have spent sometime on it in this thread.