Do Americans Know? Do Mormons Know?

[Bikeemikey]

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1992/02/the-divinely-inspired-constitution - by Elder Oaks.

One of the aspects of the U.S. Constitution is the staggered voting or terms of our Representatives:

House - two years - staggered among the States' reps

Senate - six years - staggered between each State's senators

President - four years

This allows "cooling off" periods, if you will, when the voters are stirred up emotionally by demagogues. And also prevents or should, a single 'cabal' if you will, from taking over.

In contrast, most Parliamentary systems allow elections to be called whenever those in power feel like doing so, based on current popularity, the polls, current issues, etc.

The Greek system of Democracy was awful, everyone voted on everything. The story goes the Greeks or one of its city states, voted to send its army to attack a neighboring city. But while in transit, the same city-state got all stirred up over some reports about the army then voted to to send another army to arrest the first one on the grounds of treason.

As Elder Oaks states in his article, the U.S. Constitution is the greatest export America has produced.

Then they are a terrible exporter... The vast majority of modern govts are democratic parliaments, not republics.

[Bikeemikey]

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1992/02/the-divinely-inspired-constitution - by Elder Oaks.

One of the aspects of the U.S. Constitution is the staggered voting or terms of our Representatives:

House - two years - staggered among the States' reps

Senate - six years - staggered between each State's senators

President - four years

This allows "cooling off" periods, if you will, when the voters are stirred up emotionally by demagogues. And also prevents or should, a single 'cabal' if you will, from taking over.

In contrast, most Parliamentary systems allow elections to be called whenever those in power feel like doing so, based on current popularity, the polls, current issues, etc.

The Greek system of Democracy was awful, everyone voted on everything. The story goes the Greeks or one of its city states, voted to send its army to attack a neighboring city. But while in transit, the same city-state got all stirred up over some reports about the army then voted to to send another army to arrest the first one on the grounds of treason.

As Elder Oaks states in his article, the U.S. Constitution is the greatest export America has produced.

Then they are an average exporter... democratic parliaments are about as common as presidential republics. Edited March 8, 2014 by Bikeemikey

[Bikeemikey]

Most countries have adopted the US Constitution in various forms. Even England with its parliamentary system is a representative form of govt. With the head of State, the monarchy, almost powerless in governing. The practical implications are as stated in Mosiah 29:38.

Yeah right, this is about as accurate as saying most humans breath American air because of high atmospheric jet streams.

Edited March 8, 2014 by Bikeemikey

[Bikeemikey]

Be careful of what you wish for.

At the moment, the US being a parliamentary democracy sounds pretty good to me -- considering who would then be in the White House. For you, perhaps not so much.

A parliamentary democracy would not have a White House. Edited March 8, 2014 by Bikeemikey

[rpn]

I haven't read the entire thread.   But if the US had not been founded as it was, the gospel could not have been restored.   The US was raised up for THAT purpose.  God has been okay with various forms of human government, so long as freedom to worship is preserved (and that means that the government also has to inherently respect both property and personal rights).

[halconero]

A parliamentary democracy would not have a White House.

Lots of parliamentary republics have a president as well as a prime minister. The latter acts as the head of the legislative branch, the former is still the executive, like the US. A lot of them have presidential palaces, like the White House.

A parliamentary democracy in the US might have still had a president overseeing the army, the enforcement of laws, and would still act as the head of state. He would probably have a distinct residence as well.

Examples of this include Russia, Israel, and France.

[thesometimesaint]

It is now easy to see that the indoctrination of young Americans in the 40's through the 60's was callous programming.  Though I can not remember the man's name, he told me that the purpose of public education was to produce a technically educated, compliant work force. Shockingly, liberal education caused the young to start asking uncomfortable questions, and when someone tried to shut them up, they became the Hippies.

 

Now days to speak out against the Military/Industrial complex will get you into a lot of trouble as a Mormon. As a Mormon, the sole focus should be on Jesus the Christ and his work to save the billions.  Though no one has tied me to a chair and beat me, I have learned that there are penalties for not towing the Mormon political line.

 

All us Hippies are now called Grandma and Grandpa.   It has morphed into the Military/Intelligence/Industrial/Political Complex. MIIP see for short. All lead by a bunch of sociopaths.

[thesometimesaint]

Most countries have adopted the US Constitution in various forms. Even England with its parliamentary system is a representative form of govt. With the head of State, the monarchy, almost powerless in governing. The practical implications are as stated in Mosiah 29:38.

 

Actually ours is closer to the Iroquois Confederacy. The English parliamentary system was well established long before us colonists even thought about forming our own government.  I don't believe we can draw any useful parallels between Mosiah and the American political system.

[thesometimesaint]

I haven't read the entire thread.   But if the US had not been founded as it was, the gospel could not have been restored.   The US was raised up for THAT purpose.  God has been okay with various forms of human government, so long as freedom to worship is preserved (and that means that the government also has to inherently respect both property and personal rights).

 

Then the US has never been the place for the gospel. All our rights are circumscribed by law. SEE US Constitution. 14th Amendement.

BTW That Amendment wasn't around during JS day.

[EllenMaksoud]

When you make such statements of personal opinion on the open board about Mormons getting into a lot of trouble for speaking out... or "penalties for Mormons" and the "Mormon political line," I always imagine how this must come across to non-members who may be participating on the Board, many of whom simply lurk rather than posting to find out what we are all about... such statements give a wrong impression.  So I answer on the open Board vs a PM... I may PM you also

 

GG

I appreciate your criticism, though I think the truth should be told but perhaps not in this venue.

[Sleeper Cell]

A parliamentary democracy would not have a White House.

 

So change the name from “White House” to “10 Downing Street.”

[EllenMaksoud]

Why should she have PMed you? You're spouting nonsense publicly and she called you out on it. Good for her. Why don't you tell us all what these terrible consequences are for not towing the correct Mormon political line.

You make vague accusatory statements regularly about the church and its members. Don't forget, the Mormon world is not that big, and people aren't going to automatically swallow your words. It is going to be known by some whether what you purport is correct because there will be those who have direct knowledge or experience, such as knowing the leaders you malign in your ward.

I guess you have somehow missed all of the church's teachings on free agency. And I have somehow missed all the......what?....Democrats?...being lashed to the stake and beaten for their political beliefs..

Wow, that was authoritative and condemning of me from a member of the board with what, 8 posts?  LOL I can't even take you seriously. I am Mormon, but not blindly so, and no I am not a Democrat, as if that is any of your business.

 

I have survived quite a few American leaders and have no faith in our government any more. I think that America exists solely on the good will of Heavenly Father and the way we are going that is apt to run out at any time.

 

I don't malign the leaders of my Ward, though I have had some issue with our General Authority, though I have repented of that and ask your and their forgiveness.  There actually was an issue with certain leaders pressing the idea that I get a Temple Recommend, and it became too stressful for me owing to the particulars of the situation, so I pulled the plug on it, though some of those people, who mean well, are wont to accept my withdrawal.

 

In my opinion, Heavenly Father knows what is going on and he has a direct link with the President of the church, and if any issue is not being handled correctly Heavenly Father will intervene.  To push on these issues, particularly mine, is faithless. I will rely on God to be my advocate.

[Garden Girl]

I appreciate your criticism, though I think the truth should be told but perhaps not in this venue.

 

I give up....

 

GG

[EllenMaksoud]

All us Hippies are now called Grandma and Grandpa.   It has morphed into the Military/Intelligence/Industrial/Political Complex. MIIP see for short. All lead by a bunch of sociopaths.

Though what you say is partially in jest, I am frightened of them. I was working for the City of Hillsboro when 9/11 happened and in the normal discharge of my duties had lots of contact with City, County, State and Federal employees. We would often speak about our families, fishing, skiing and other fun stuff as I completed my tasks.

 

After 9/11 a certain few went "Starkers Bonkers" (You'll have to look that up in DSM 5   )  Soon, our city and personal phones were being illegally monitored, certain folk in the City were advocating taking all employees personal weapons, and they were talking of doing insane things like putting National Guard troops on government buildings and critical infrastructure. In short, it was an insanely paranoid organization culture.  Our government was treating American citizens as the enemy and not looking for terrorist elements.

 

Owing to my own psychological challenges, it takes a lot of stability around me to keep myself centered. That was gone and in short order, I hit the wall and wound up in places where the doors were locked from the outside several times.

 

It was not until I'd been with the Mormons a while that I began to feel safe and saucy once again.

[MiserereNobis]

American Mormons are consistently shocked that many foreign Mormons don't buy into to their divinization of the US govt.

 

Is the idea that the US constitution is divinely inspired not official doctrine that non-American Mormons have to accept?

[Calm]

My view is that they see the divine inspiration in a less specific way as well as not so unique especially at this time and see inspiration in other countries' laws and struggles that have led to greater freedom as well as protection and benefits for all citizens, rather than the elite few.

They don't see it as a blueprint from God that all should be following either, it was what was needed for a particular time and place, other laws and ideas may be given by God for other people (for example the Israelites and Nephites definitely weren't some sort of protoAmerican government however much some American LDS claim).

I agree with this position btw...which may be in part why I think nonAmerican LDS think this way as I might have been hearing what I expected.

My experience was there was respect for the US, but also a well founded irritation that so many things are not approached more globally. I am ecstatic that the RS Board is having 5 additional members from around the world. I hope the other auxiliaries follow soon.

I look forward to the day when people's thoughts don't fly to the US, let alone Utah, when they hear Mormon, but instead ask for what country is being referred to, etc.

****or would that be "Utah, let alone the US"?

Edited March 9, 2014 by calmoriah

[Yirgacheffe]

Oh, wait a minute, I am trying to get my shoe outta my mouth. So, what, are you Jewish?

Unaffiliated I guess.  Raised erratically trying out non-denoms, liked the churches where adults talked after services and kids played.  Hated the churches with intense youth programs.  I've attended the Methodist church tow houses down more than any other only because that's where I sent all my kids to pre-school and they always have school related services through out the school year.

[Sleeper Cell]

American Mormons are consistently shocked that many foreign Mormons don't buy into to their divinization of the US govt.

 

American Mormons disproportionately vote Republican -- a political party not known for saying good things about the US government.