Do Americans Know? Do Mormons Know?

[Buzzard]

It is now easy to see that the indoctrination of young Americans in the 40's through the 60's was callous programming.  Though I can not remember the man's name, he told me that the purpose of public education was to produce a technically educated, compliant work force. Shockingly, liberal education caused the young to start asking uncomfortable questions, and when someone tried to shut them up, they became the Hippies.

 

Now days to speak out against the Military/Industrial complex will get you into a lot of trouble as a Mormon. As a Mormon, the sole focus should be on Jesus the Christ and his work to save the billions.  Though no one has tied me to a chair and beat me, I have learned that there are penalties for not towing the Mormon political line.

Maybe in the states. But on my mission in France, knew several LDS who were members of the Socialist or Communist parties. Freaked out the Utah/Idaho missionaries, but not so much the other local members. 

[sweetpotatoh]

Ellen what exactly is the Mormon Political Line? Is it Harry Reid's view on politics or Mitt Romneys?

[theplains]

Since Mormons view the US constitution as a divinely inspired document, is there ever a push for US style democracy to be implemented elsewhere?  Basically the entire democratic world, except for the US, follows the parliamentary system.

 

The US was formed as a republican form of government, not a democratic one. There is

a huge difference between the two systems.

 

Regards,

Jim 

[EllenMaksoud]

Ellen what exactly is the Mormon Political Line? Is it Harry Reid's view on politics or Mitt Romneys?

I am liking Mitt Romney more and more when compared to some of the other leaders we have had. At least Mitt will have his wife to help him.

 

I do not wish to get this thread locked so I will not comment on the leaders we have had since WWII.

[theplains]

I am liking Mitt Romney more and more when compared to some of the other leaders we have had. At least Mitt will have his wife to help him.

 

I am not aware of any former married president where his wife would not help him :-)

 

Jim

[pogi]

I am not aware of any former married president where his wife would not help him :-)

 

Jim

 

Lincoln's wife was questionable. 

[EllenMaksoud]

I am not aware of any former married president where his wife would not help him :-)

 

Jim

Mormon women are special.

[halconero]

Since Mormons view the US constitution as a divinely inspired document, is there ever a push for US style democracy to be implemented elsewhere?  Basically the entire democratic world, except for the US, follows the parliamentary system.  Has there ever been any statement (official or speculative or whatever) as to the merits of US style democracy vs British style democracy?

 

It intrigues me that in Mormonism a specific national government form (the US) has been singled out as being divine.  What are the practical implications of this?

 

Thanks.

The funny thing is that there have been several government systems throughout orthodox (Bible) and Latter-day Saint scriptures which have been shown divine favour. Most don't line up. I think that the latest case is just God adapting an earthly form of government to its time. I doubt that the political and economic Kingdom of God on earth during the Millenial period, or I'm heaven, will look much like the US government.

[teddyaware]

The funny thing is that there have been several government systems throughout orthodox (Bible) and Latter-day Saint scriptures which have been shown divine favour. Most don't line up. I think that the latest case is just God adapting an earthly form of government to its time. I doubt that the political and economic Kingdom of God on earth during the Millenial period, or I'm heaven, will look much like the US government.

“And that law of the land which is constitutional, supporting that principle of freedom in maintaining rights and principles, belongs to all mankind, and is justifiable before me.” (D&C 98:5)

“[The] Lord established the Constitution of the United States for the blessing of all flesh. In my soul I believe that that is part of the great Kingdom of God, the political part,...God’s word shall not fail when He predicted that the instrument known as the Constitution of the United States, the Spirit of liberty established here by a few weak colonists, was His order of things for the government of men, and it should roll forth to fill the whole earth.” (Melvin J. Ballard, October 1918 General Conference)

[Calm]

It is not divine. God "suffered" it to come into being for specific purposes. He allowed it. He certainly did not dictate it. I would be uncomfortable imagining God putting His divine stamp of approval on the 3/5ths of a person clause.

3/5s....not 2/3s...ok so my memory isn't that great these days, but I at least remembered the principle.

[Calm]

.

That has its own downsides. While I recognize the advantages in my experience switching to parliamentary procedures depersonalizes politics, gives parties power with little check for individual descent, and removes the ideal of every citizen having a representative personally responsible for their welfare.

Yes to this. Edited March 8, 2014 by calmoriah

[The Nehor]

.Yes to this.

 

I need to stop posting from my ipad. The auto-correct is out to humiliate me.

[halconero]

“And that law of the land which is constitutional, supporting that principle of freedom in maintaining rights and principles, belongs to all mankind, and is justifiable before me.” (D&C 98:5)

“[The] Lord established the Constitution of the United States for the blessing of all flesh. In my soul I believe that that is part of the great Kingdom of God, the political part,...God’s word shall not fail when He predicted that the instrument known as the Constitution of the United States, the Spirit of liberty established here by a few weak colonists, was His order of things for the government of men, and it should roll forth to fill the whole earth.” (Melvin J. Ballard, October 1918 General Conference)

All of which I agree with. The principle governing heaven is revelation, allowing for adaptation to circumstances in which God's children find themselves.

I would argue that the US constitution, and the freedoms it ensures, is a blessing for the Gospel and for the children of God. Does that mean it is permanent? Hardly.

God has given kingdoms, republican aristocracies, and patriarches to govern his children, each depending on their circumstances.

The Millenial kingdom will function as such. We are taught that all will have to render obedience to the laws (not Gospel laws, but governmental laws) it receives from Jesus Christ. I doubt it will involve elections or changing legislation, both of which are outlined in the constitution.

In short, the constitution blesses lives. It comes from God. That doesn't mean its permanent, or even the highest form of government.

[EllenMaksoud]

for one thing it takes much less time to elect the Prime Minister!!! 2 years of this flub dubbery to get the American Fella in the White house is too much!!!

Hyeah, they are doing flyers on Mitt Romney right now, and I am just frustrated enough to vote for him. Just watch the news, Facebook and other social sites.

[Tiki]

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1992/02/the-divinely-inspired-constitution - by Elder Oaks.

One of the aspects of the U.S. Constitution is the staggered voting or terms of our Representatives:

House - two years - staggered among the States' reps

Senate - six years - staggered between each State's senators

President - four years

This allows "cooling off" periods, if you will, when the voters are stirred up emotionally by demagogues. And also prevents or should, a single 'cabal' if you will, from taking over.

In contrast, most Parliamentary systems allow elections to be called whenever those in power feel like doing so, based on current popularity, the polls, current issues, etc.

The Greek system of Democracy was awful, everyone voted on everything. The story goes the Greeks or one of its city states, voted to send its army to attack a neighboring city. But while in transit, the same city-state got all stirred up over some reports about the army then voted to to send another army to arrest the first one on the grounds of treason.

As Elder Oaks states in his article, the U.S. Constitution is the greatest export America has produced.

Edited March 8, 2014 by Tiki

[Tiki]

Since Mormons view the US constitution as a divinely inspired document, is there ever a push for US style democracy to be implemented elsewhere?  Basically the entire democratic world, except for the US, follows the parliamentary system.  Has there ever been any statement (official or speculative or whatever) as to the merits of US style democracy vs British style democracy?

 

It intrigues me that in Mormonism a specific national government form (the US) has been singled out as being divine.  What are the practical implications of this?

 

Thanks.

Most countries have adopted the US Constitution in various forms. Even England with its parliamentary system is a representative form of govt. With the head of State, the monarchy, almost powerless in governing. The practical implications are as stated in Mosiah 29:38.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

When I grew up, we were required to memorize part of the Declaration of Independence. Later we read and expected to write essays on the Constitution and Bill of Rights. I doubt that many Americans today value any of those documents. Do Mormons know what we were deprived of that is in those documents?

Still do in Civics classes, usually starts right after State History (which was 5h grade in my day) then America History was the following year. In High School it is a light peppering of these things. In College it is professors making fun of those ideals espoused within.

[Yirgacheffe]

This is as it should be.   I love Mormons, but believe I drive them bats at times. At least they keep talking to me.

Others keep talking to you too , I'm not a Mormon and I guess not special.

Edited March 8, 2014 by Yirgacheffe

[Garden Girl]

 

Now days to speak out against the Military/Industrial complex will get you into a lot of trouble as a Mormon. As a Mormon, the sole focus should be on Jesus the Christ and his work to save the billions.  Though no one has tied me to a chair and beat me, I have learned that there are penalties for not towing the Mormon political line.

 

I have never found either of your statements to be true... just what is the "Mormon political line" anyway?  And pray tell, just what possible"trouble" as a Mormon does one face if they voice an opinion about what you term the Military/Industrial complex?? 

This is what I mean when I say you throw out your political opinions as if they were facts... I certainly don't know your statements here to be factual.

A person on this board that I consider a friend is poles apart from me politically... yet we are in tune spiritually... in fact, I see numerous views politically on various levels among a good many posters participating on the Board.  So what "penalties" are various people facing?  I'd really be interested in know what penalties you have learned about... particularly since I've been LDS all my life and haven't a clue...

 

GG

[EllenMaksoud]

Still do in Civics classes, usually starts right after State History (which was 5h grade in my day) then America History was the following year. In High School it is a light peppering of these things. In College it is professors making fun of those ideals espoused within.

When I got out of the Army in 1969, in the Fall I started going to College. In one of my classes was a Professor was a radical little pop in jay who sharply criticized America's efforts in Vietnam, and the soldiers who served, calling us baby killers and other offensive things. I don't think I need to tell you what happened between he and I that day.

 

I have never found either of your statements to be true... just what is the "Mormon political line" anyway?  And pray tell, just what possible"trouble" as a Mormon does one face if they voice an opinion about what you term the Military/Industrial complex?? 

This is what I mean when I say you throw out your political opinions as if they were facts... I certainly don't know your statements here to be factual.

A person on this board that I consider a friend is poles apart from me politically... yet we are in tune spiritually... in fact, I see numerous views politically on various levels among a good many posters participating on the Board.  So what "penalties" are various people facing?  I'd really be interested in know what penalties you have learned about... particularly since I've been LDS all my life and haven't a clue...

 

GG

I smell a thread lock coming. What the heck. If a Mormon on Facebook says Obama is a liar, and I challenge them ... One of these folk was one of the Sisters in Kirtland, Ohio that first taught me. Her politics really challenged me. Oh, I am not going to bother tonight ... You coulda PM'sed me.

[EllenMaksoud]

Others keep talking to you too , I'm not a Mormon and I guess not special.

Oh, wait a minute, I am trying to get my shoe outta my mouth. So, what, are you Jewish?

[Sleeper Cell]

I'd like to see the US more like the parliamentarian socialist democracies of Europe with strict limits of six week campaigns. But I don't believe we'll ever get there.

 

Be careful of what you wish for.

 

At the moment, the US being a parliamentary democracy sounds pretty good to me -- considering who would then be in the White House.  For you, perhaps not so much.  

[Garden Girl]

When I got out of the Army in 1969, in the Fall I started going to College. In one of my classes was a Professor was a radical little pop in jay who sharply criticized America's efforts in Vietnam, and the soldiers who served, calling us baby killers and other offensive things. I don't think I need to tell you what happened between he and I that day.

 

I smell a thread lock coming. What the heck. If a Mormon on Facebook says Obama is a liar, and I challenge them ... One of these folk was one of the Sisters in Kirtland, Ohio that first taught me. Her politics really challenged me. Oh, I am not going to bother tonight ... You coulda PM'sed me.

 

When you make such statements of personal opinion on the open board about Mormons getting into a lot of trouble for speaking out... or "penalties for Mormons" and the "Mormon political line," I always imagine how this must come across to non-members who may be participating on the Board, many of whom simply lurk rather than posting to find out what we are all about... such statements give a wrong impression.  So I answer on the open Board vs a PM... I may PM you also

 

GG

[Raingirl]

When I got out of the Army in 1969, in the Fall I started going to College. In one of my classes was a Professor was a radical little pop in jay who sharply criticized America's efforts in Vietnam, and the soldiers who served, calling us baby killers and other offensive things. I don't think I need to tell you what happened between he and I that day.

 

I smell a thread lock coming. What the heck. If a Mormon on Facebook says Obama is a liar, and I challeng

e them ... One of these folk was one of the Sisters in Kirtland, Ohio that first taught me. Her politics really challenged me. Oh, I am not going to bother tonight ... You coulda PM'sed me.

Why should she have PMed you? You're spouting nonsense publicly and she called you out on it. Good for her. Why don't you tell us all what these terrible consequences are for not towing the correct Mormon political line.

You make vague accusatory statements regularly about the church and its members. Don't forget, the Mormon world is not that big, and people aren't going to automatically swallow your words. It is going to be known by some whether what you purport is correct because there will be those who have direct knowledge or experience, such as knowing the leaders you malign in your ward.

I guess you have somehow missed all of the church's teachings on free agency. And I have somehow missed all the......what?....Democrats?...being lashed to the stake and beaten for their political beliefs..

[Bikeemikey]

Since Mormons view the US constitution as a divinely inspired document, is there ever a push for US style democracy to be implemented elsewhere? Basically the entire democratic world, except for the US, follows the parliamentary system. Has there ever been any statement (official or speculative or whatever) as to the merits of US style democracy vs British style democracy?

It intrigues me that in Mormonism a specific national government form (the US) has been singled out as being divine. What are the practical implications of this?

Thanks.

I think you need to add American Mormons in front of your statements. American Mormons are consistently shocked that many foreign Mormons don't buy into to their divinization of the US govt.

As for a comparison of the benefits of different styles of democracy? Just look at the political joke US congress has been the last few years.