EllenMaksoud Posted March 5, 2014 Posted March 5, 2014 Well, I am not Catholic so do not know much about the Pope. I tried to copy a link to the CNN "Belief" story about the latest action of the Pope. It seems he is mulling over Same Sex Unions, and has taken a new stand on Women in the Church, saying that they should be present when decisions are made. The article does not say if we can talk, but we have to be there. Hmmmm Is this progress. This thing about SSM bothers me; conflicts me because on one level they are wrong, but on another level, what if the science eventually proves this whole business is genetic and by definition not voluntary? Good heavens, this whole thing has me sitting in the corner dithering.
thesometimesaint Posted March 5, 2014 Posted March 5, 2014 Well, I am not Catholic so do not know much about the Pope. I tried to copy a link to the CNN "Belief" story about the latest action of the Pope. It seems he is mulling over Same Sex Unions, and has taken a new stand on Women in the Church, saying that they should be present when decisions are made. The article does not say if we can talk, but we have to be there. Hmmmm Is this progress. This thing about SSM bothers me; conflicts me because on one level they are wrong, but on another level, what if the science eventually proves this whole business is genetic and by definition not voluntary? Good heavens, this whole thing has me sitting in the corner dithering. He is mulling over some form of Civil Union not SSM. The bigger problem is that when governments give deference to one religious expression over another.
EllenMaksoud Posted March 5, 2014 Author Posted March 5, 2014 He is mulling over some form of Civil Union not SSM. The bigger problem is that when governments give deference to one religious expression over another.So a sort of non church marriage? Hmmmm, what for?
David T Posted March 5, 2014 Posted March 5, 2014 From CNN's coverage: States, for instance, justify civil unions as a way to provide economic security to cohabitating couples, the Pope said in a wide-ranging interview published Wednesday in Corriere della Sera, an Italian daily. State-sanctioned unions are thus driven by the need to ensure rights like access to health care, Francis added. A number of Catholic bishops have supported civil unions for same-sex couples, including Pope Francis when he was Archbishop of Buenos Aires in 2010, according to reports in National Catholic Reporter and The New York Times. But Wednesday's comments are "the first time a Pope has indicated even tentative acceptance of civil unions," according to Catholic News Service.
Popular Post Kenngo1969 Posted March 5, 2014 Popular Post Posted March 5, 2014 (edited) ... This thing about SSM bothers me; conflicts me because on one level they are wrong, but on another level, what if the science eventually proves this whole business is genetic and by definition not voluntary? [Emphasis added by Kenngo1969.] Good heavens, this whole thing has me sitting in the corner dithering.I don't mean to sound calloused, but so what? "The natural man is an enemy to God, and will be forever and ever, unless he yieldeth to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man, and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father" (Mosiah 3:19). Whatever genetic predispositions one has, either (1) a behavior is voluntary or (2) God will not hold someone who completely lacks free choice accountable for any actions in relation to that lack of choice. One may not be responsible for one's genetic inheritance, but almost without exception, he is always responsible for his behavior. The commandment is to put off the natural man ... period. We all have things that make us natural men and women. For example, a sex drive is completely natural. But that doesn't mean I'm exempt from keeping it within the bounds the Lord has set by saving its fulfillment for marriage. Or perhaps I have what is, for all intents and purposes, a propensity to anger easily, which I inherited from my father, who inherited it from his father, and so on, and back through the ages to Adam. I have two choices: (1) I can say, "Ah, well. It's natural; I was born that way, and there's nothing I can do about it"; or (2) I can follow the formula outlined in the above-quoted scripture. Edited March 5, 2014 by Kenngo1969 7
BCSpace Posted March 5, 2014 Posted March 5, 2014 This thing about SSM bothers me; conflicts me because on one level they are wrong, but on another level, what if the science eventually proves this whole business is genetic and by definition not voluntary? Science has shown an alcoholism gene yet abstinence is still required by the WoW. According to Ether 12:27 and 1 Nephi 3:7, a change in doctrine is usually not justified. 1
Damien the Leper Posted March 5, 2014 Posted March 5, 2014 Science has shown an alcoholism gene yet abstinence is still required by the WoW. According to Ether 12:27 and 1 Nephi 3:7, a change in doctrine is usually not justified. Not the same thing. Alcoholism is a disease whereas sexual orientation is not. 2
Kenngo1969 Posted March 5, 2014 Posted March 5, 2014 Not the same thing. Alcoholism is a disease whereas sexual orientation is not.So, being an alcoholic is OK ... as long as one is functional?
Ed6 Posted March 5, 2014 Posted March 5, 2014 So if you have the alcoholic gene or whatever, you will crave alcohol, even if you've never had it? I don't think so. I think all humans crave companionship and love. Going though live alone is a lot different than going through life without alcohol. 3
Kenngo1969 Posted March 5, 2014 Posted March 5, 2014 So if you have the alcoholic gene or whatever, you will crave alcohol, even if you've never had it? I don't think so. I think all humans crave companionship and love. Going though live alone is a lot different than going through life without alcohol. Cool! So, "The Rules" (e.g., Mosiah 3:19) don't apply to me, either! Fan-dang-tastic!
EllenMaksoud Posted March 5, 2014 Author Posted March 5, 2014 I don't mean to sound calloused, but so what? "The natural man is an enemy to God, and will be forever and ever, unless he yieldeth to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man, and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father" (Mosiah 3:19). Whatever genetic predispositions one has, either (1) a behavior is voluntary or (2) God will not hold someone who completely lacks free choice accountable for any actions in relation to that lack of choice. One may not be responsible for one's genetic inheritance, but almost without exception, he is always responsible for his behavior. The commandment is to put off the natural man ... period. We all have things that make us natural men and women. For example, a sex drive is completely natural. But that doesn't mean I'm exempt from keeping it within the bounds the Lord has set by saving its fulfillment for marriage. Or perhaps I have what is, for all intents and purposes, a propensity to anger easily, which I inherited from my father, who inherited it from his father, and so on, and back through the ages to Adam. I have two choices: (1) I can say, "Ah, well. It's natural; I was born that way, and there's nothing I can do about it"; or (2) I can follow the formula outlined in the above-quoted scripture.Ah well, I err on the side of mercy, not that I allow that to violate to covenants. As far as I am concerned if there is punishment and torment to be handed out, Heavenly Father can do his own dirty work. I am called to love others full stop. Thankfully, I am blessed with NO sex drive, so can not judge. Your view sounds more Evangelical than Mormon to me though I suppose there are Mormons who adhere to a more steadfast interpretation. I actually know some gays and lesbians though have not well connected with them on a social level. The gay guys I know at times seem to have a double dose of testosterone and their thinking seems to be dominated by thoughts of sexual pleasure. I've done a lot of study about brain science from the lay level, and there have been some brain scans using fine scale MRI's and frozen slice brain specimens. The frozen slice brain analysis was done on cadavers in the Netherlands and they found physical differences in the specimens analyzed. The fine scale MRI tests have happened fairly recently though I can not give you references at this time. I have given a lot of though as to why this new information has not trickled down to religious establishments and have come to the conclusion that this is a two edged sword. First, the scientists involved perhaps simply do not care what religionists think, as astonishing as that may sound. Second, I do not know of any religonist that is searching for research that would be hostile to their own point of view. That someone would think that a Heart Surgeon would have an opinion on some of these issues that is more relevant than the opinion of a genetic researcher, just makes me want to sigh and wonder off in search of a pint of the dark brew. And no, I do not feel tormented by your position.
EllenMaksoud Posted March 5, 2014 Author Posted March 5, 2014 Science has shown an alcoholism gene yet abstinence is still required by the WoW. According to Ether 12:27 and 1 Nephi 3:7, a change in doctrine is usually not justified.I come from a long family history of Alcoholics. Therefore I do not now and never have drank heavily. It used to be one or two beers a year with pizza, but now it is root beer with Pizza. I can live with that.
thesometimesaint Posted March 5, 2014 Posted March 5, 2014 (edited) So if you have the alcoholic gene or whatever, you will crave alcohol, even if you've never had it? I don't think so. I think all humans crave companionship and love. Going though live alone is a lot different than going through life without alcohol. You'll have the gene whether or not you drink the stuff. The gene isn't responsible for the craving just your propensity to become an alcoholic. Edited March 5, 2014 by thesometimesaint
thesometimesaint Posted March 5, 2014 Posted March 5, 2014 Ah well, I err on the side of mercy, not that I allow that to violate to covenants. As far as I am concerned if there is punishment and torment to be handed out, Heavenly Father can do his own dirty work. I am called to love others full stop. Thankfully, I am blessed with NO sex drive, so can not judge. Your view sounds more Evangelical than Mormon to me though I suppose there are Mormons who adhere to a more steadfast interpretation. I actually know some gays and lesbians though have not well connected with them on a social level. The gay guys I know at times seem to have a double dose of testosterone and their thinking seems to be dominated by thoughts of sexual pleasure. I've done a lot of study about brain science from the lay level, and there have been some brain scans using fine scale MRI's and frozen slice brain specimens. The frozen slice brain analysis was done on cadavers in the Netherlands and they found physical differences in the specimens analyzed. The fine scale MRI tests have happened fairly recently though I can not give you references at this time. I have given a lot of though as to why this new information has not trickled down to religious establishments and have come to the conclusion that this is a two edged sword. First, the scientists involved perhaps simply do not care what religionists think, as astonishing as that may sound. Second, I do not know of any religonist that is searching for research that would be hostile to their own point of view. That someone would think that a Heart Surgeon would have an opinion on some of these issues that is more relevant than the opinion of a genetic researcher, just makes me want to sigh and wonder off in search of a pint of the dark brew. And no, I do not feel tormented by your position. Actually scientists care a great deal what their religion teaches. Science itself can't care.
Brian 2.0 Posted March 5, 2014 Posted March 5, 2014 I come from a long family history of Alcoholics. Therefore I do not now and never have drank heavily. It used to be one or two beers a year with pizza, but now it is root beer with Pizza. I can live with that.
canard78 Posted March 5, 2014 Posted March 5, 2014 I don't mean to sound calloused, but so what? "The natural man is an enemy to God, and will be forever and ever, unless he yieldeth to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man, and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father" (Mosiah 3:19). Whatever genetic predispositions one has, either (1) a behavior is voluntary or (2) God will not hold someone who completely lacks free choice accountable for any actions in relation to that lack of choice. One may not be responsible for one's genetic inheritance, but almost without exception, he is always responsible for his behavior. The commandment is to put off the natural man ... period. We all have things that make us natural men and women. For example, a sex drive is completely natural. But that doesn't mean I'm exempt from keeping it within the bounds the Lord has set by saving its fulfillment for marriage. Or perhaps I have what is, for all intents and purposes, a propensity to anger easily, which I inherited from my father, who inherited it from his father, and so on, and back through the ages to Adam. I have two choices: (1) I can say, "Ah, well. It's natural; I was born that way, and there's nothing I can do about it"; or (2) I can follow the formula outlined in the above-quoted scripture. So is sexual attraction to same gender and sexual attraction to opposite gender God-given or not? Is it a "natural man" defect to be sexually attracted or is a divinely imbued desire? Why do you suppose He would give that attraction in one way to one person with the defined appropriate parameters for expressing that attraction (opposite gender attraction) while giving a similar attraction to others and not give any parameter for expressing that attraction (same gender attraction). Maybe we're just too close-minded to listen. Our assumptions have defined doctrine (as they have done in the past).
Brian 2.0 Posted March 5, 2014 Posted March 5, 2014 I come from a long family history of Alcoholics. Therefore I do not now and never have drank heavily. It used to be one or two beers a year with pizza, but now it is root beer with Pizza. I can live with that.I love root beer with pizza
EllenMaksoud Posted March 5, 2014 Author Posted March 5, 2014 Cool! So, "The Rules" (e.g., Mosiah 3:19) don't apply to me, either! Fan-dang-tastic! Oddly, from my early years, even if I got completely smashed, I never had a hang over. Later, I found out that I could be up to 1/4 Native American and the family felt that drinking was not good for me since they felt that Indians were more vulnerable.
Kenngo1969 Posted March 5, 2014 Posted March 5, 2014 Ah well, I err on the side of mercy, not that I allow that to violate to covenants. As far as I am concerned if there is punishment and torment to be handed out, Heavenly Father can do his own dirty work. I am called to love others full stop. Thankfully, I am blessed with NO sex drive, so can not judge. Sigh. Loving others doesn't necessarily entail approving of their behavior. God loves me unconditionally, just as He loves you unconditionally. That does not, however, mean that He approves of everything we do or that we should approve of everything anybody does. Your view sounds more Evangelical than Mormon to me though I suppose there are Mormons who adhere to a more steadfast interpretation. Fine. Tell you what. Try quoting Mosiah 3:19, with attribution, to an Evangelical, and note carefully his reaction. I'll be eagerly awaiting your response. I actually know some gays and lesbians though have not well connected with them on a social level. The gay guys I know at times seem to have a double dose of testosterone and their thinking seems to be dominated by thoughts of sexual pleasure. "My Testosterone Made Me Do It" won't fly with God any more than any other similar excuse will. We're back to the Natural Man. I've done a lot of study about brain science from the lay level, and there have been some brain scans using fine scale MRI's and frozen slice brain specimens. The frozen slice brain analysis was done on cadavers in the Netherlands and they found physical differences in the specimens analyzed. The fine scale MRI tests have happened fairly recently though I can not give you references at this time. "My Brain," "My Brain Chemistry," and "My Brain Structure Made Me Do It" won't fly with God any more than any other similar excuse will. Again, we're back to the Natural Man. I have given a lot of though as to why this new information has not trickled down to religious establishments and have come to the conclusion that this is a two edged sword. First, the scientists involved perhaps simply do not care what religionists think, as astonishing as that may sound. Second, I do not know of any religonist that is searching for research that would be hostile to their own point of view. Science and religion often are at loggerheads ... and this is news to you? That someone would think that a Heart Surgeon would have an opinion on some of these issues that is more relevant than the opinion of a genetic researcher, just makes me want to sigh and wonder off in search of a pint of the dark brew. Depends on whether one has a testimony (or how willing one is to gain a testimony) that the "heart surgeon" in question is inspired of God. And no, I do not feel tormented by your position. Drat! I guess I'll have to work on it, then!
EllenMaksoud Posted March 5, 2014 Author Posted March 5, 2014 So is sexual attraction to same gender and sexual attraction to opposite gender God-given or not? Is it a "natural man" defect to be sexually attracted or is a divinely imbued desire? Why do you suppose He would give that attraction in one way to one person with the defined appropriate parameters for expressing that attraction (opposite gender attraction) while giving a similar attraction to others and not give any parameter for expressing that attraction (same gender attraction). Maybe we're just too close-minded to listen. Our assumptions have defined doctrine (as they have done in the past).So, SSA is relatively rare; only about 7%, thus by default doctrine tends to be made by those without the problem. Hmmmm
CV75 Posted March 5, 2014 Posted March 5, 2014 This thing about SSM bothers me; conflicts me because on one level they are wrong, but on another level, what if the science eventually proves this whole business is genetic and by definition not voluntary? Good heavens, this whole thing has me sitting in the corner dithering. The way I see it, all sorts of genetic conditions can interfere with one's ability to enter into the covenants in this life. I see his statement (about same sex unions, not marriage) as advancing the Catholic view for social justice (access to healthcare and necessities of life that many depend on their governments to provide). 1
EllenMaksoud Posted March 5, 2014 Author Posted March 5, 2014 Sigh. Loving others doesn't necessarily entail approving of their behavior. God loves me unconditionally, just as He loves you unconditionally. That does not, however, mean that He approves of everything we do or that we should approve of everything anybody does. Fine. Tell you what. Try quoting Mosiah 3:19, with attribution, to an Evangelical, and note carefully his reaction. I'll be eagerly awaiting your response. "My Testosterone Made Me Do It" won't fly with God any more than any other similar excuse will. We're back to the Natural Man. "My Brain," "My Brain Chemistry," and "My Brain Structure Made Me Do It" won't fly with God any more than any other similar excuse will. Again, we're back to the Natural Man. Science and religion often are at loggerheads ... and this is news to you? Depends on whether one has a testimony (or how willing one is to gain a testimony) that the "heart surgeon" in question is inspired of God.Drat! I guess I'll have to work on it, then! You seem to think we are having a debate. From my very pathological point of view, I don't actually care is everyone agrees with me.
EllenMaksoud Posted March 5, 2014 Author Posted March 5, 2014 The way I see it, all sorts of genetic conditions can interfere with one's ability to enter into the covenants in this life. I see his statement (about same sex unions, not marriage) as advancing the Catholic view for social justice (access to healthcare and necessities of life that many depend on their governments to provide).I am sure there are some who would deprive those with HIV of treatment. Out of my own ignorance of the epidemiology of the disease, I once had the series of tests for about 9 months. I came out negative and you can believe that my conduct following was greatly modified.
CV75 Posted March 5, 2014 Posted March 5, 2014 (edited) I am sure there are some who would deprive those with HIV of treatment. Out of my own ignorance of the epidemiology of the disease, I once had the series of tests for about 9 months. I came out negative and you can believe that my conduct following was greatly modified.Thank goodness you're not spreading it... If the Pope can get more people into treatment into HIV (including reducing their viral load), say trough a Cathiolic ministry of some kind, fewer people will contuinue to spread it and create more suffering. Edited March 5, 2014 by CV75
EllenMaksoud Posted March 5, 2014 Author Posted March 5, 2014 Thank goodness you're not spreading it... If the Pope can get more people into treatment into HIV (including reducing their viral load), say trough a Cathiolic ministry of some kind, fewer people will contuinue to spread it and create more suffering.This is absolutely true. I went to Nyeri, Kenya in April of 2001 as a temporary missionary for the International Foursquare Church. In the areas our team worked in, either 2/3 or 3/4 of the people who had lived there were dead from Aids. ( I am using HIV and Aids interchangeably owing to my own ignorance). We wondered at this because many of the families were Christian. In that area, Islam was not an issue. We wondered why and then one of the men we were working with there, told us that in that tribal culture, it was believed that if a man got ill, he could be cured by having sex with a girl baby. You can only imagine the vectors that created. I have no idea why this fact is not more well known.
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